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  1. #1
    Senior Member Imperator100's Avatar
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    1750pts overloading their threat management COMPETITIVE

    As stated in the title, I am hoarding out on my guardsmen. This is from the models I have designed for a tournament that will be coming in the future. My tactics will be explained below, and as many of you may not agree with certain choices, so just bear with me until you see how they factor into my tactics.

    Imperial Guard 1750pts
    H.Q.
    Company Command Squad = 112 points (7men)
    -Company Commander has close combat weapon and bolt pistol
    -4 veterans (2 with Laspistol and close combat weapons, 2 with lasguns,)
    -Officer of the fleet
    -Astropath

    ELITES
    Storm Trooper Squad =190points (10men)
    -1 storm trooper sergeant with hot shot lasgun
    -7 storm troopers with hot shot lasguns
    -1 storm trooper with plasma gun
    -1 storm trooper with Meltagun


    TROOPS
    Platoon Command Squad = 45points (5men)
    -1 platoon Commander with Laspistol and close combat weapon
    -2 guardsmen with a lasguns
    - 2 guardsmen forming a missile launcher

    Infantry Squad 75 points (10men)
    -sergeant with Laspistol and close combat weapon
    -9 guardsmen ( 6 with lasguns, 1 with plasma gun, 2 forming auto cannon team)

    Infantry Squad 75 points (10men)
    -sergeant with Laspistol and close combat weapon
    -9 guardsmen ( 6 with lasguns, 1 with plasma gun, 2 forming auto cannon team)

    Infantry Squad 75 points (10men)
    -sergeant with Laspistol and close combat weapon
    -9 guardsmen ( 6 with lasguns, 1 with plasma gun, 2 forming auto cannon team)

    TROOPS
    Platoon Command Squad = 50 points (5men)
    1 platoon Commander with Laspistol and close combat weapon
    4 guardsmen with sniper rifles

    Infantry Squad 65 points (10men)
    -sergeant with Laspistol and close combat weapon
    -9 guardsmen (6 guardsmen with lasguns, 2 guardsmen forming a auto cannon, 1 guardsman with grenade launcher)

    Infantry Squad 55 points (10men)
    -sergeant with Laspistol and close combat weapon
    -9 guardsmen (8 guardsmen with lasguns, 1 guardsman with flamer)
    Chimera Armored Transport = 65 points (infantry squad with flamer)
    -hull mounted heavy bolter, turret mounted heavy bolter, heavy stubber

    Infantry Squad 55 points (10men)
    -sergeant with Laspistol and close combat weapon
    -9 guardsmen (8 guardsmen with lasguns, 1 guardsman with grenade launcher)

    Infantry Squad 55 points (10men)
    -sergeant with Laspistol and close combat weapon
    -9 guardsmen (8 guardsmen with lasguns, 1 guardsman with grenade launcher)


    TROOPS
    Veteran Squad = 135points (10men)
    -1 veteran sergeant armed with a Laspistol and close combat weapon
    -9 veterans (3 with plasma guns, 2 forming a lascannon, the rest armed with lasguns)

    TROOPS
    Veteran Squad = 135points (10men)
    1 veteran sergeant armed with a Laspistol and close combat weapon
    -9 veterans ( 3 with plasma guns, 2 forming a lascannon team, the rest armed with lasguns)

    TROOPS
    Veteran Squad = 100points (10men)
    1 veteran sergeant armed with Laspistol and close combat weapon
    -9 veterans (3 armed with meltaguns, the rest armed with lasguns

    TROOPS
    Penal Legion Squad = 80points (10men)

    FAST ATTACK
    Valkyrie Assault Carrier Squadron 130 points
    -1 Valkyrie armed with a multi-laser and two multiple rocket pods

    FAST ATTACK
    Bane wolf = 130points

    HEAVY SUPPORT
    ORDNANCE BATTERY 125 points
    -1 basilisk

    TOTAL: 1,752points

    Essentially, the veterans with plas/lasc combo will deply with the main platoon with auto/plas combo and form the basic gunline. The command squad shall deploy wherever there is suitable cover and use their advisors to effect. with the platoon command squads. The snipers from the second platoon command squad shall deply at an angle holding a narrow fire lane if possible. (denser than usual terrain is usually present at the club) Meanwhile The valkyrie with veterans with melta guns will deploy in reserve and outflank reliably due to the astropath. The 2 guardsmen squads with only grenade launchers shall form either skirmishers in front of the main battle line or as phoney objective takers in which I wholeheartedly expect to be annihilated by the enemy. The real objective takers will be the outflanking penal legion squad, the guardsman squad with the flamer in the chimera, the melta gun veterans if they survive, and any rushing forward guardsmen at the end game. The stormtroopers' job is to clear the objective(s) of enemy forces, although I will not depend on them. They will be the ever present threat in the enemy's mind(s) opening up the way for the penal troopers or guardsmen without heavy weapons. As such, they shall be taking the airborne assault mission. The banewolf shall remain out of sight until It sees a target of opportunity or they can help clear objectives with the stormtroopers. The basilisk is mostly a physcological aspect with a first-strike capability. In desperate circumstances it may serve as a direct fire gun leading a last assault to take an objective or firing at an enemy threat about to hit the lines. The army has plenty of men at 136 guardsmen which should outnumber most opponents if not all that I am likely to face apart from orks. It has plenty of autocannons to take out eldar or tau skimmers. It also has enough objective takers. I am not 100% confident with its anti tank ability however, as I only have 2 lascannons, and 3 meltaguns to rely on to take out heavy armour. The rest must fall to the autocannons or the basilisk. As such I might change the valkyrie to a vendetta gunship. Any suggestions?

    Last edited by Imperator100; October 7th, 2009 at 12:58.

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  3. #2
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    There is definitely not enough stand off anti tank or anti-transport. While your numbers are very impressive, any mechanised list with enough numbers (i'm looking at other guard or orks here), will force their way through on a single flank and start burning through your men where your numbers and low amount of AT weaponry will work against you big time. In the case of orks he will have a field day assaulting your units but this will be more tricky considering that if he destroys a squad in CC he will face your firepower next turn.

    However, because you will be shooting through your own models most of the time, he will get a cover save. It's just that, at the moment the metagame is fully or at least partially mechanised. Either that or you need to give your gunline some heavy support by filling out those fast attack and heavy weapons slots. 3 LRBTs or demolishers, or alternatively even medusa assault guns and hellhounds with multi meltas will be far more effective than the few lascannons and autocannons.

    You may also want to consider ditching those storm troopers because 9 men with just 1 meltagun will be a very expensive target that will likely NOT earn its points back. Even if you manage to deep strike next to an enemy vehicle. These points are so much better invested in vehicles. Also you mention that you are going competitive, well, i don't think there is a place for storm troopers in a competitive environment whatsoever, but i'll be gladly proven wrong.

    Finally, while your troop distribution is OK, your veterans are immobile due to the heavy weapons and lack of transports which means they will never be able to plug a hole in your gunline effectively. And you added a penal legion squad, for what exactly?
    31st Valonian Naval, 3rd BN, XVII Heavy Air Landing Engineer Battle Group W/L/D: 5/1/1

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    Senior Member Imperator100's Avatar
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    Well, I might change the weapons of the stormtroopers but then I am not using them to bust tanks as you suggested. The penal legion have their uses as a light screen in front of the army, or for objective taking and as they are stubborn, they can act as a very effective speed bump. @ a mech list breaking through my lines, (especially guard) I don't see that happening with the number of auto cannons and plasma available that will reliably crack or stall av12. An ork horde would not necessarily have a field day, lasguns do have their anti infantry uses when used in the numbers I am putting on the field. And my veterans are not performing the role that you perceive them to be performing. They are fire bases effectively deployed in the best cover, and will be used to crack transports or high toughness or armour save troops approaching the lines. I may not have enough anti tank weapons, and I am reluctant to purchase LRBT as they can be destroyed in one shot and not gradually like infantry (call me weird, but no russes is my policy) so I am probably going to have to change the valkyrie's armament. I could also buy meltaguns instead of grenade launchers in my two running squads if I free up some points. Thank you for your advice, I do appreciate it.

  5. #4
    LO Zealot Triorchin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryphonne View Post
    well, i don't think there is a place for storm troopers in a competitive environment whatsoever, but i'll be gladly proven wrong.
    Although you may think they are useless, a 5 man squad with 2 meltas, that almost certainly will land on target behind a tank has a very high chance of killing the tank, maybe more than 1.

    All that for 105 pts, pretty good if you ask me.

    Though I would agree that storm troopers as a unit aren't the best value in points, if all works to plan you could see a squad make back its points cost.

    But saying that I would only ever take a squad of 5 with 2 meltas.

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    Okay, consider this scenario, at 1750 pts a player could easily field 7 or so AV12 vehicles and 3 AV14 vehicles. On that scale a few autocannons (which need a 6! to penetrate AV12 and are BS3) will not do you much good. What an experienced mech user might do is use a denied flank, put the LRBTs up front, having the chimerae behind in a very difficult to hit hull down position (3+ cover save) and pop smoke for the russes on the first turn giving them a 4+ cover save. Your lascannons will be the only weapons able to stop him. On top of that, tanks are fiarly resilient in 5th ed and you will not take out 3 AV14 vehicles reliably in one or even two turns.

    The next turn he will be a lot closer and may even be in range with his hellhounds. eradicating your flank position, from there one, the fight will become much more difficult for you. Your vets are hiding in cover then, which means they will be spread over the table diminishing their power, especially with the short range AT weapons. A meltagun is great, but only within 6". In any case, you should try the list against a full mech player and see how it plays out
    31st Valonian Naval, 3rd BN, XVII Heavy Air Landing Engineer Battle Group W/L/D: 5/1/1

  7. #6
    Member Hockeyman506's Avatar
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    H.Q.
    Company Command Squad = 112 points (7men)
    -Company Commander has close combat weapon and bolt pistol
    -4 veterans (2 with Laspistol and close combat weapons, 2 with lasguns,)
    -Officer of the fleet
    -Astropath
    If you are hiding these guys in cover for orders and the advisers I might suggest wither camo-cloaks and/or a mortar just to be a bit more of an annoyance. It is really a shame not to use the BS4.

    Storm Trooper Squad =190points (10men)
    -1 storm trooper sergeant with hot shot lasgun
    -7 storm troopers with hot shot lasguns
    -1 storm trooper with plasma gun
    -1 storm trooper with Meltagun
    I don't think these will really do the job you want them to. Mixing weapons is a bad idea as you have conflicting roles and those hellguns are very expensive. I prefer keeping them naked and in 5 man squads if you even field them.

    If you're set on taking these guys, take two 5-man squads with a pair of meltaguns for tank hunting. I still think these aren't worth the points and that other units do the job better.


    Platoon Command Squad = 45points (5men)
    -1 platoon Commander with Laspistol and close combat weapon
    -2 guardsmen with a lasguns
    - 2 guardsmen forming a missile launcher
    At BS3 the missile launcher isn't overly reliable, but I can see why you chose it.

    Infantry Squad 75 points (10men)
    -sergeant with Laspistol and close combat weapon
    -9 guardsmen ( 6 with lasguns, 1 with plasma gun, 2 forming auto cannon team)
    Plasma on BS3 isn't the best choice IMO and it doesn't compliment the role of the autocannon that well.

    Platoon Command Squad = 50 points (5men)
    1 platoon Commander with Laspistol and close combat weapon
    4 guardsmen with sniper rifles
    Sniper rifles aren't all that useful. BS3 means you won't hit overly much, rending is not something to rely on, and pinning almost never happens as a lot of units have high leadership or have abilities to negate pinning.

    Infantry Squad 65 points (10men)
    -sergeant with Laspistol and close combat weapon
    -9 guardsmen (6 guardsmen with lasguns, 2 guardsmen forming a auto cannon, 1 guardsman with grenade launcher)
    Good, can handle a variety of targets.

    Infantry Squad 55 points (10men)
    -sergeant with Laspistol and close combat weapon
    -9 guardsmen (8 guardsmen with lasguns, 1 guardsman with flamer)
    Chimera Armored Transport = 65 points (infantry squad with flamer)
    -hull mounted heavy bolter, turret mounted heavy bolter, heavy stubber
    Keep this as a multilaser and heavy flamer on the chimera and drop the stubber. I'd rather see a veteran squad over this.

    Infantry Squad 55 points (10men)
    -sergeant with Laspistol and close combat weapon
    -9 guardsmen (8 guardsmen with lasguns, 1 guardsman with grenade launcher)
    Would prefer an autocannon, but I can appreciate the mobile element.


    Veteran Squad = 135points (10men)
    -1 veteran sergeant armed with a Laspistol and close combat weapon
    -9 veterans (3 with plasma guns, 2 forming a lascannon, the rest armed with lasguns)
    Expensive, risky, and easy to kill. They'll be a high priority target, but kudos if you can get them to work.

    Veteran Squad = 100points (10men)
    1 veteran sergeant armed with Laspistol and close combat weapon
    -9 veterans (3 armed with meltaguns, the rest armed with lasguns
    Good, demolitions may or may not be useful.

    Penal Legion Squad = 80points (10men)
    Never used these so I can't judge their effectiveness. See how they work for you.

    Valkyrie Assault Carrier Squadron 130 points
    -1 Valkyrie armed with a multi-laser and two multiple rocket pods
    Only one of these will get shot down very quickly. Get more of them or drop it completely. I'd also advise taking vendetta's instead, I think you need the AT.

    Bane wolf = 130points
    Good, MEQ death. Though a hellhound may suit you better, see what you need after a few games.

    ORDNANCE BATTERY 125 points
    -1 basilisk
    Ick, 36 inch minimum range is terrible as most of the time you won't be able to shoot anything. If you fire directly it means your opponent can see you and will kill this card-board box very quickly.


    With only four AV12 vehicles at 1750 don't expect them to last past turn 2 or 3. I'd honestly favor dropping the penal legion and the stormtroopers for more vehicles and heavy weapons. Or at least something that can protect the squishy veterans since your are banking a lot of your AT and Anti-MEQ on them.

    For instance, at 1750 I would probably have around the lines of 5-7 chimeras, 3 Russes, and maybe hellhounds or sentinels. My first priorities would be moving within 36 inches making your basilisk vulnerable should you choose to fire, taking out the valkirie squad (which I assume would have jumped out of their vehicle to torch one of my tanks), after that the only thing to do is throw some shots at the veterans and make them run away with a psyker battlesquad.

    After that I'd be pretty safe sitting back and plugging away at the rest of your army. I wouldn't feel too threatened by the stormtroopers as they only have one meltagun and killing them/making them run after deepstriking would be simple.

    Just taking a look at things from the point of view with my army.
    Last edited by Hockeyman506; October 7th, 2009 at 19:06.

  8. #7
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    this list is very vulnerable to flankers because of squishy and exposed command units and they are also very vulnerable to pie plate spams. plus no where near enough anti-tank.
    turn your dense tactics in paragraphs, because you won't catch me reading that. no offense.
    thanks
    antique_nova
    Superior stamina may win battles, but the ability to quickly recover wins wars.

  9. #8
    Senior Member Imperator100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gryphonne View Post
    Okay, consider this scenario, at 1750 pts a player could easily field 7 or so AV12 vehicles and 3 AV14 vehicles. On that scale a few autocannons (which need a 6! to penetrate AV12 and are BS3) will not do you much good. What an experienced mech user might do is use a denied flank, put the LRBTs up front, having the chimerae behind in a very difficult to hit hull down position (3+ cover save) and pop smoke for the russes on the first turn giving them a 4+ cover save. Your lascannons will be the only weapons able to stop him. On top of that, tanks are fiarly resilient in 5th ed and you will not take out 3 AV14 vehicles reliably in one or even two turns.

    The next turn he will be a lot closer and may even be in range with his hellhounds. eradicating your flank position, from there one, the fight will become much more difficult for you. Your vets are hiding in cover then, which means they will be spread over the table diminishing their power, especially with the short range AT weapons. A meltagun is great, but only within 6". In any case, you should try the list against a full mech player and see how it plays out
    Well how often do players actually put forward that many tanks? And I am among 3 guard players at my club, and they both have un mech guard armies so its not a problem. I think the stormtroopers are a mistake, so fair enough I will remove them for something nicer. I will also make the valkyrie a vendetta. I also fail to grasp your mathematical working on the autocannon. AV 12, Strength 7, 7 + 5 = 12.... why do I need a 6? They are not multilasers my friend. Honestly the only mech players I am likely to see are Eldar, whose numbers are few, and Tau, for which I vastly outnumber.

    @ hockeyman, maybe I could fit another lascannon into my ccs? And have them snipe from cover? @ the autocannon/plas combo I find they compliment each other pretty well. Both are strength 7, and can bust Transports pretty easily, and if the heavy armor infantry arrive near my lines, I have so ap2 weaponry to fall back on just in case. I also forgot the issue of snipers in 5th ed having 4+ only to hit, so out they go of my army. Thanks for reminding me. Your review gets me thinking, and I'm going to redesign my army. I just want to keep the infantry levels high though, above 100 if possible. Thank you very much for your solid advice.

    @ Antique Nova pretty much the same, I will make changes.

    Thanks to everyone who replied!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator100 View Post
    I also fail to grasp your mathematical working on the autocannon. AV 12, Strength 7, 7 + 5 = 12.... why do I need a 6? They are not multilasers my friend.
    So you're telling me you do not need a 6 to penetrate? Glancing hits will only take you so far and sure as heck not destroy the tank, at least not with the autocannon.
    31st Valonian Naval, 3rd BN, XVII Heavy Air Landing Engineer Battle Group W/L/D: 5/1/1

  11. #10
    Senior Member Imperator100's Avatar
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    You don't need to destroy them. Delay them. Shake them. Immobilize them.

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