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  1. #1
    The Orange Grey Knight MiketehFox's Avatar
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    2000 Marines - First 5th Ed List

    I'll admit right up front I haven't had any games in years and despite having the 5th Ed Rule book I've never had any 5th Ed games either, but I've done some reading, done some lurking, and I think I've grasped some of th more basic differences, and seeing as OGKs as I have played them aren't viable anymore, figured I'd try my hand at a Marine list.

    Basic Premise is one your prolly rather familiar with by now, Sternguad with Pod into teh army to wipe out some armor or onto objectives to hand out 'Special Issue' punishement while the Tac Squads move up. Ironclad Pods in to wreck stuff and cause a distraction, Land Speeders roam about for surviving armor, Vindy also acts as a distraction while trying to blow stuff up. Pred I guess just fills the enemy with lead.

    ...

    And just now I've realized that I completely forgot about my HQ, so I guess I'll need to figure something out for that.

    Also before we get to the list, whats the general opinion on Extra Armor nowadays? Seems to me using cover and smoke launchers is just more economical.

    NEWer LIST

    HQ 175
    Chapter Pedro Kantor

    Total: 175

    Elites 890

    SternGuard Veterans
    10 Marines
    6 Combi Meltas
    2 Combi Plasmas
    Power Fist
    Drop Pod

    Total: 350

    SternGuard Veterans
    10 Marines
    6 Combi Meltas
    2 Combi Plasmas
    Power Fist
    Drop Pod

    Total: 350

    IronClad
    Heavy Flamer
    Hunter-Killer Missile(1)
    Drop Pod

    Total: 190

    Troops 660

    Tactical Squad
    10 Marines
    Plasma gun
    Missile Launcher
    Razorback

    Total: 220

    Tactical Squad
    10 Marines
    Plasma gun
    Missile Launcher
    Razorback

    Total: 220

    Tactical Squad
    10 Marines
    Plasma gun
    Missile Launcher
    Razorback

    Total: 220

    Fast Attack 270

    Land Speeder Squadron
    Land Speeders
    Typhoon Missile Launchers
    Total: 90

    Land Speeder Squadron
    Land Speeders
    Typhoon Missile Launchers
    Total: 90

    Land Speeder Squadron
    Land Speeders
    Typhoon Missile Launchers
    Total: 90

    Heavy Support

    OLD LIST

    HQ 175
    Chapter Pedro Kantor

    Total: 175

    Elites 860

    SternGuard Veterans
    10 Marines
    6 Combi Meltas
    Power Fist
    Drop Pod

    Total: 340

    SternGuard Veterans
    10 Marines
    6 Combi Meltas
    Power Fist
    Drop Pod

    Total: 340

    IronClad
    Heavy Flamer
    Drop Pod

    Total: 180

    Troops 660

    Tactical Squad
    10 Marines
    Plasma gun
    Missile Launcher
    Razorback

    Total: 220

    Tactical Squad
    10 Marines
    Plasma gun
    Missile Launcher
    Razorback

    Total: 220

    Tactical Squad
    10 Marines
    Plasma gun
    Missile Launcher
    Razorback

    Total: 220

    Fast Attack 270

    Land Speeder Squadron
    Land Speeders
    Typhoon Missile Launchers
    Total: 90

    Land Speeder Squadron
    Land Speeders
    Typhoon Missile Launchers
    Total: 90

    Land Speeder Squadron
    Land Speeders
    Typhoon Missile Launchers
    Total: 90

    Heavy Support

    So am I crazy or just un-edumacated?

    Mike

    Last edited by MiketehFox; April 4th, 2010 at 11:06.

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  3. #2
    Senior Member alvenom's Avatar
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    That's a solid list. The only thing I'd try to do is get some Power Fists in there but I can't find anyway of finding the points. I've never found Extra Armour to be worth the points.

    It's mobile, there's plenty anti-armour and anti-infantry: it's a good all-round 5th Ed list.

  4. #3
    That Which Has No Time Red Archer's Avatar
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    531 (x8)

    Hey MiketehFox! Glad to have you back after so long a time. I just returned to LO (and W40k and 5th edition) in the last third of 2009, so I know how you feel.

    Opinion on extra armor: well, it's pretty expensive. It is rarely used, and if it is, then mostly on land raiders. 37.5% points increase in a rhino/razorback just so that it won't be unable to move from 16.7% of all glancing and penetrating hits just doesn't seem worth the trouble - not even if you could count on suffering a hit that succeeds to inflict damage every turn. It's a simple economical question, as you stated already yourself.

    Your list is pretty good for the first attempt! There are some suggestions I have for you, though.
    I do hope you are going to use combat squads and split the tactical squads at deployment as well as the sternguard upon their arrival. If you do you may consider using razorbacks for your tactical squads, but that's just on a side note.
    What bothers me is your melta loadout: you have one melta gun on your ironclad and eight one-shot melta guns in sum on your sternguard. Vehicles in fifth edition are hard to kill. To do the job reliably you need the 2D6 penetration and you need the +1 on the chart from AP1. Melta is the king of fifth edition anti-tank, you can no longer do it all with missile launchers and lascannons. Because melta weapons are so popular, the multi-melta of course is so all the more. It is the main anti-tank weapon of Space Marine armies nowadays. Apart from the fact that two melta guns (per combat squad in your sternguard, if you split them evenly) are nothing to rely on (one might easily miss and the other fail to inflict serious damage) -I prefer three combi-meltas in each sternguard combat squad to ensure your alpha-strike will definitely rend the target vehicle useless- you definitely need to include some classic Space Marine anti-tank in your list: multi-melta attack bikes or speeders.
    Another thing that strikes me is close combat weaponry. Most Space Marine commanders tend to hand out power fists to the sergeants of their tactical squads so that they can handle virtually any situation and won't be as easily disabled by a monstrous creature or walker assaulting them, can kill MEQ (or Ork Nobs, etc) much more effectively, can assault vehicles if a nearby tank requires to be killed, etc. This may not be obligatory, but it is usually commonly agreed upon, and I would really suggest to at least equip your sternguard with power fists, as they are very likely to see close combat when dropping among the enemy lines.
    Your vindicator doesn't require a siege shield. A dozer blade will keep you safe enough, usually. Only every 36th time you plough through terrain you will regret it, and that's rare enough. A single vindicator usually isn't a good idea, though, as it will die rather quickly. You know: one is a target, two are a threat. Multiples can also use their smoke launchers to protect themselves and each other, meaning you can profit from smoke for two turns with two vindicators or even three turns with three. Multiples can also shield each other's side armor, etc. It's really worth taking more than one.
    Typhoons are great, though they, too, excel at large numbers. Two in 2,000 points is not really a force that can operate independently and roll up the enemy's entire flank on their own (which typhoons really excel at), but if you use them carefully to support your main army, helping them kill off wounded targets, etc they will do fine. You should put each one in its own squad, though. You can engage more targets, won't lose speeders on immobilized results, and will be able to contest two objectives with them at the end of the game. This is an important use of landspeeders.

    Apart from that Pedro Kantor sternguard armies are very popular and usually very viable. Play some 5th edition games to get the feel. Good luck and have fun, mate!
    Red

  5. #4
    The Orange Grey Knight MiketehFox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Archer View Post
    Hey MiketehFox! Glad to have you back after so long a time. I just returned to LO (and W40k and 5th edition) in the last third of 2009, so I know how you feel.

    From my reading and lurking you seem to have acclimated yourself rather well! Thanks for your input.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Archer
    Opinion on extra armor: well, it's pretty expensive. It is rarely used, and if it is, then mostly on land raiders. 37.5% points increase in a rhino/razorback just so that it won't be unable to move from 16.7% of all glancing and penetrating hits just doesn't seem worth the trouble - not even if you could count on suffering a hit that succeeds to inflict damage every turn. It's a simple economical question, as you stated already yourself.
    Yeah, might pay off on tanks that absolutely have to get where thier going, like LRs with nasty surprises inside, but otherwise Cover FTW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Archer
    I do hope you are going to use combat squads and split the tactical squads at deployment as well as the sternguard upon their arrival. If you do you may consider using razorbacks for your tactical squads, but that's just on a side note.
    I'm still a bit iffy on combat Squads, I can see the advantages but on the other hand I see two 5 strong that I worry about being wiped out more easily, but then again with no 5th ed Games under my belt I'll have to experiment both ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Archer
    What bothers me is your melta loadout: you have one melta gun on your ironclad and eight one-shot melta guns in sum on your sternguard. Vehicles in fifth edition are hard to kill. To do the job reliably you need the 2D6 penetration and you need the +1 on the chart from AP1. Melta is the king of fifth edition anti-tank, you can no longer do it all with missile launchers and lascannons. Because melta weapons are so popular, the multi-melta of course is so all the more. It is the main anti-tank weapon of Space Marine armies nowadays. Apart from the fact that two melta guns (per combat squad in your sternguard, if you split them evenly) are nothing to rely on (one might easily miss and the other fail to inflict serious damage) -I prefer three combi-meltas in each sternguard combat squad to ensure your alpha-strike will definitely rend the target vehicle useless- you definitely need to include some classic Space Marine anti-tank in your list: multi-melta attack bikes or speeders.
    I will try to squeeze in the extra Combi-meltas thought on the Sternguard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Archer
    Another thing that strikes me is close combat weaponry. Most Space Marine commanders tend to hand out power fists to the sergeants of their tactical squads so that they can handle virtually any situation and won't be as easily disabled by a monstrous creature or walker assaulting them, can kill MEQ (or Ork Nobs, etc) much more effectively, can assault vehicles if a nearby tank requires to be killed, etc. This may not be obligatory, but it is usually commonly agreed upon, and I would really suggest to at least equip your sternguard with power fists, as they are very likely to see close combat when dropping among the enemy lines.
    Ugh, PFs have always annoyed me seeing as they cost so much! I'll admit they could be handy, especially in a Drop Podding squad, but the cost is still upsetting, an dI do combat squad them I'd be willing to ge teh one with the PFist will just get shot to oblivion....

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Archer
    Your vindicator doesn't require a siege shield. A dozer blade will keep you safe enough, usually. Only every 36th time you plough through terrain you will regret it, and that's rare enough. A single vindicator usually isn't a good idea, though, as it will die rather quickly. You know: one is a target, two are a threat. Multiples can also use their smoke launchers to protect themselves and each other, meaning you can profit from smoke for two turns with two vindicators or even three turns with three. Multiples can also shield each other's side armor, etc. It's really worth taking more than one.
    Yeah, seems the more I think about it the more the more I could use said points else where. Also on that note, how do you think the Predator will preform? On one hand it can be useful for hunting Transports and generally being a pain to infantry units, but honestly I'm not sure what else I'd use HS slots for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Archer
    Typhoons are great, though they, too, excel at large numbers. Two in 2,000 points is not really a force that can operate independently and roll up the enemy's entire flank on their own (which typhoons really excel at), but if you use them carefully to support your main army, helping them kill off wounded targets, etc they will do fine. You should put each one in its own squad, though. You can engage more targets, won't lose speeders on immobilized results, and will be able to contest two objectives with them at the end of the game. This is an important use of landspeeders.
    I dunno, I can't help but think in the long run I'll get more use and flexibilty out of Typhoons over Melta Speeders. If I have the points I migth try to squeeze in a third one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Archer
    Apart from that Pedro Kantor sternguard armies are very popular and usually very viable.
    Well, there goes my heritage for having wiierd/diff armies! xD

    Also Whats the word on the street about Razorbacks? i never saw them get much use back in 4th, but now with combat squads it seems like they'll get more use...

    I figure I can throw Pedro into a combat squad with a Razorback so he can actually get up there.

    Mike

  6. #5
    That Which Has No Time Red Archer's Avatar
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    531 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by MiketehFox View Post
    Ugh, PFs have always annoyed me seeing as they cost so much! I'll admit they could be handy, especially in a Drop Podding squad, but the cost is still upsetting, an dI do combat squad them I'd be willing to ge teh one with the PFist will just get shot to oblivion....
    Hm. Well, don't pod elite sternguard -a danger for anything and everything- right into the enemy's face and expect them to be welcome.
    Yes, your sternguard will draw lots of fire, and yes, power fists are very expensive. I've been reluctant taking them in 4th edition, and they have become even more expensive in 5th. But they are well worth it, believe me. Now in case of your sternguard the power fist is already worth it simply as a fear factor. If you have none, the enemy will assault your sternguard with some decent close combat unit, and without upgrade you won't stand a chance. Meanwhile, the rest of the enemy's army shoots the rest of your army. Now if your sternguard have a power fist they can hold their own very well and are a threat even to decent close combat units. The enemy will have to focus much more resources on your sternguard to take them out of the game, leaving the rest of your army less harmed.

    Quote Originally Posted by MiketehFox View Post
    Yeah, seems the more I think about it the more the more I could use said points else where. Also on that note, how do you think the Predator will preform? On one hand it can be useful for hunting Transports and generally being a pain to infantry units, but honestly I'm not sure what else I'd use HS slots for.
    Well, those dakka preds have become pretty cheap. Yet I don't like them, just because I have no real use for them in my army builds. There's lots of stuff that can kill mass infantry already, and there's lots of stuff that can hunt light vehicles (better than the predator). And all of it has some mobility without forgoing (the majority of) its firepower...
    I use my heavy support slots for vindicators, mostly. In groups they perform really well and are always worth their points. Sometimes (against Eldar, for example) I also take one or even two whirlwinds. And of course land raiders are -though expensive- very viable, but you should have a hard-hitter assault unit for it to transport, otherwise its a waste.
    I see your thinking. Heavy support isn't as important as it used to be for Space Marines. Multi-melta attack bikes are the main anti-tank, typhoon land speeders are the new heavy support. At least that's what I am preaching, and more and more fellow commanders are catching on. These are your transport hunters, and the more of them you have, the better. They really rock the game every time. The more you have, the more they rock. (Exponentially.)

    Quote Originally Posted by MiketehFox View Post
    I dunno, I can't help but think in the long run I'll get more use and flexibilty out of Typhoons over Melta Speeders. If I have the points I migth try to squeeze in a third one.
    The typhoon speeders are the best you can have. I don't like multi-melta speeders myself, but many people use them. Multi-melta attack bikes on the other hand are superb for non-biker armies. You should definitely get some for your anti-tank. Really: multi-meltas are the thing to build on.


    Quote Originally Posted by MiketehFox View Post
    Also Whats the word on the street about Razorbacks? i never saw them get much use back in 4th, but now with combat squads it seems like they'll get more use...
    Different commanders, different opinions. I would say about half the people use razorbacks because they come with a very cheap heavy bolter (or upgrade mount, if you care to invest the points) and people use combat squads anyhow. Other players support the idea of being able to transport the entire squad, because they aren't fans of combat squadding or want to avoid it at least in annihilation missions where kill points count. Another difference between the two is fire points: you can't shoot weapons out of a razorback.
    So razorbacks are reasonably popular, personally I like them very much. Not everyone is a fan of them, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by MiketehFox View Post
    I figure I can throw Pedro into a combat squad with a Razorback so he can actually get up there.
    Yes, but honestly I would put him with the sternguard. His aura is of more use with them and this way he is in the enemy's face right from the beginning.

    Take care!
    Red

  7. #6
    The Orange Grey Knight MiketehFox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Archer View Post
    Hm. Well, don't pod elite sternguard -a danger for anything and everything- right into the enemy's face and expect them to be welcome.
    Yes, your sternguard will draw lots of fire, and yes, power fists are very expensive. I've been reluctant taking them in 4th edition, and they have become even more expensive in 5th. But they are well worth it, believe me. Now in case of your sternguard the power fist is already worth it simply as a fear factor. If you have none, the enemy will assault your sternguard with some decent close combat unit, and without upgrade you won't stand a chance. Meanwhile, the rest of the enemy's army shoots the rest of your army. Now if your sternguard have a power fist they can hold their own very well and are a threat even to decent close combat units. The enemy will have to focus much more resources on your sternguard to take them out of the game, leaving the rest of your army less harmed.
    Good points, also if I do throw Pedro into a Sternguard squad I would have 3 PFists running around, might be interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Archer View Post
    Well, those dakka preds have become pretty cheap. Yet I don't like them, just because I have no real use for them in my army builds. There's lots of stuff that can kill mass infantry already, and there's lots of stuff that can hunt light vehicles (better than the predator). And all of it has some mobility without forgoing (the majority of) its firepower...
    I use my heavy support slots for vindicators, mostly. In groups they perform really well and are always worth their points. Sometimes (against Eldar, for example) I also take one or even two whirlwinds. And of course land raiders are -though expensive- very viable, but you should have a hard-hitter assault unit for it to transport, otherwise its a waste.
    I see your thinking. Heavy support isn't as important as it used to be for Space Marines.
    Yeah, at first I was considering a LR, but then realize I didn't have anything nasty to stuck inside it. I think I'll drop both the Vind and Pred, between the Pfists and stuff I figure I'll need a good chunk of the extra points for that, then either squeeze in more Land Speeders or an attack bike or 2, I think I still have an unassembled Attack Bike somewhere.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Archer View Post
    Multi-melta attack bikes are the main anti-tank, typhoon land speeders are the new heavy support. At least that's what I am preaching, and more and more fellow commanders are catching on. These are your transport hunters, and the more of them you have, the better. They really rock the game every time. The more you have, the more they rock. (Exponentially.)

    The typhoon speeders are the best you can have. I don't like multi-melta speeders myself, but many people use them. Multi-melta attack bikes on the other hand are superb for non-biker armies. You should definitely get some for your anti-tank. Really: multi-meltas are the thing to build on.
    Yeah, thats kinda the vibe I get too, aslo comign from a Tau player MM LS are inferior to teh same thing but with piranhas, so I'd rather play to the strengths of the Typhoon Launcher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Archer View Post
    Different commanders, different opinions. I would say about half the people use razorbacks because they come with a very cheap heavy bolter (or upgrade mount, if you care to invest the points) and people use combat squads anyhow. Other players support the idea of being able to transport the entire squad, because they aren't fans of combat squadding or want to avoid it at least in annihilation missions where kill points count. Another difference between the two is fire points: you can't shoot weapons out of a razorback.
    So razorbacks are reasonably popular, personally I like them very much. Not everyone is a fan of them, though.
    Yeah, I'll either just buy all razorback kits and be ready for anything or at least buy 1 or 2. I can certainly see them being useful
    especially considering I'm "throwing away" almost half my army point-wise(obviously the point is to kill the enemy, but still, dice gods can be fickle)

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Archer View Post
    Yes, but honestly I would put him with the sternguard. His aura is of more use with them and this way he is in the enemy's face right from the beginning.
    Aye, and this way there will be 3 PFists between the 4 combat squads.

    Thanks for all your help so far!

    I think I should be able to get a new list posted before I gotta get to work.

    Mike

  8. #7
    The Orange Grey Knight MiketehFox's Avatar
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    Updated list;

    Same basics as before, but added a Powerfist to the Sterguard Squads, upgraded Rhinos to Razorbacks* and added a 3rd Typhoon and split them up into 3 squadrons.

    *Technically I'll be able to switch between Rhinos and Razor backs as will, but I've taken all razorbacks now just to make sure the list doesn't go over budget.

    Now, even with Razorbacks I'm still 35 Points under and not sure where I can speed it, I was half considering a HK missile or 2 for the Ironcladeither as extra weapons to get that first turn kill or something to use second turn if it survives/has a target. any ideas are welcome.

    Anyways, now to the list!

    HQ 175
    Chapter Pedro Kantor

    Total: 175

    Elites 860

    SternGuard Veterans
    10 Marines
    6 Combi Meltas
    Power Fist
    Drop Pod

    Total: 340

    SternGuard Veterans
    10 Marines
    6 Combi Meltas
    Power Fist
    Drop Pod

    Total: 340

    IronClad
    Heavy Flamer
    Drop Pod

    Total: 180

    Troops 660

    Tactical Squad
    10 Marines
    Plasma gun
    Missile Launcher
    Razorback

    Total: 220

    Tactical Squad
    10 Marines
    Plasma gun
    Missile Launcher
    Razorback

    Total: 220

    Tactical Squad
    10 Marines
    Plasma gun
    Missile Launcher
    Razorback

    Total: 220

    Fast Attack 270

    Land Speeder Squadron
    Land Speeders
    Typhoon Missile Launchers
    Total: 90

    Land Speeder Squadron
    Land Speeders
    Typhoon Missile Launchers
    Total: 90

    Land Speeder Squadron
    Land Speeders
    Typhoon Missile Launchers
    Total: 90

    Heavy Support 0

    Also updated first post

    Mike

  9. #8
    That Which Has No Time Red Archer's Avatar
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    Looking good!

    Though I am still not entirely convinced that you have enough anti-tank. Your sternguard squads can kill a lot, but they are one-shot wonders. And you run the risk of being unable to take care of mass 2+ saves. You might want to upgrade one of your tactical missile launchers to a plasma cannon with the remaining points. Additional combi-weapons for the sternguard is never a bad thing (you can save some melta shots for later, for example, while still firing enough melta shots to kill your target reliably - or combi-flamers to torch some some infantry cluster), combi-weapons on the tactical sergeants (combi-plasma, for example, or combi-flamers since you have only a single flamer template so far, and cover saves are everywhere in fifth edition) might be a viable addition as well.

    Spend at will!

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    Member Soulforge's Avatar
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    I thought razorbacks can only transport 5 men, not ten man squads. At least thats what it says in the SW codex. I could be wrong. Some of your rules are different like that.

  11. #10
    That Which Has No Time Red Archer's Avatar
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    531 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulforge View Post
    I thought razorbacks can only transport 5 men, not ten man squads. At least thats what it says in the SW codex. I could be wrong. Some of your rules are different like that.
    Well, vanilla Space Marines need something to make up for Space Wolves being cheaper, having acute senses and counter attack, double the attacks base (because of bolters, bolt pistols and close combat weapons),... And one of the advantages of vanilla Space Marines is the combat squads special rule, allowing ten men squads to split into two five men squads.

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