Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Hi there, this is my first post here, so I've read the rules for posting lists and hoping this all works fine and isn't breaking any
Anyway, here's the list. As you'll see I try to make the list lean towards one side of things and I've gone for a strong shooting phase and a weatherable Assault Phase here, with the list being mobile enough to go either way if I've no choice in the matter. Oh, and my Raven Guard colour scheme has no influence on my list either. This includes no assault squads and has very distinctly non-raven guard characters.
Captain Cato Sicarius - 200
Tactical Squad - +5 Space Marines, Flamer, Plasmacannon, Sergeant has Meltabombs - 180
Drop Pod - 35
Tactical Squad - +5 Space Marines, Flamer, Plasmacannon, Sergeant has Meltabombs - 180
Rhino - 35
Tactical squad - +5 Space Marines, Flamer, Lascannon, Sergeant has Meltabombs - 185
Rhino - 35
Venerable Dreadnought - Lascannon, Missile Launcher - 205
Terminator Squad - Assault Cannon - 230
Land Raider Redeemer - Multimelta - 250
Whirlwind - 85
Predator - Twin Linked Lascannon Turret, Heavy Bolter Sponsons - 130
Allow me to explain my general tactics:
Sicarius: I have tried him once or twice and found his Rites of Battle simply invaluable. Re-rolling Sieze the initiative has yet to give me results, but its a nice gimmick to pull off. Battle-forged Heroes is useful in certain situations too, giving Tank Hunters to the unit with the lascannon has proved interesting early game, and giving counter attack to the drop pod unit has been useful in certain situations also, sicne after dropping onto an objective in turn 1 I often get counter-charged. Coup-de-grace is fun to use on unsuspecting 'Fexes etc, but often I end up optimistic on that one.
The Tactical squads go without saying, atleast 3 in this points size is 100% necessary and 100% effective. Drop podding a unit always holds me an objective for a while , and the others can provide nice fire bases from objectives closer to home. Rhinos work as a meatshield, simply to protect a unit for a turn or two, after a fashion. I play more cautiously with these in Kill Pts games though, since 11-11-10 isn't the most heavily armoured tank out there. Meltabombs on all three cus I had a few spare pts.
Termies are durable fire support capable of dropping big units on their own in either shooting or a charge, although I try to stick to the former since the units they're most suited to killing, like MC's and walkers, are often good at killing 1 or 2 back.
The Dread with Las is for popping tanks, I'm not sure about the venerable though, for 60 more pts or something. Worth it?
Land Raider Redeemer transport is lurvvvly in most situations, I'll generally sacrifice alot of early shooting (bar one weapon. Machine Spirit ftw!) to get it into a nice position later on. Multimelta is great against AV14 vehicles, which I generally see atleast one or two of against tank armies like IG and other Marines. To clarify, the termies are in here since I removed the Gating Librarian for a support/close range one.
Whirlwinds are underrated by alot, S5 AP4 Large blast Barrage is not to be sniffed at, especially for 85 pts. The no cover
shell is heavenly against masses of Light Infantry also, such as 'Nids and Orkz.
Twin Linked Las-pred is for early tank hunting like the Dread. No point in spnsons, since I can't move and fire the lot and if I'm sitting still I'm kinda, well... immobile, which is a pain cus I'm hit automatically in CC. And Termies, Orcs with Klaws, and other such nasties will poke staright through me. EDIT: Actually, I did put some sponsons on cus I had a few spare points that I couldn't do much with.
NOTE: I generally avoid combat squads in a shooty army, since my 10 man squads are for close range anti-infantry (and objective holding). This basically means I need to minimise the number of kill-points on offer (in certain scenarios) and minimise the number of Morale Checks I'm taking in order to get close and stay close. Generally I keep the tactical squads moving early on and save the popshots for later, but depending on mission objectives (i.e objectives or kill points) I'll split some up if I feel firing Plasmacannon shots early will be beneficial. Occasionally I'll drop a few lascannon shots near the beginning but thats for the specific tactical squad. Any thoughts on my approach to this?
My only concern through the whole army is that I don't have amazing ways of dealing with MCs quickly, I often end up depending on Raidering the termies around to powerfist them, and if I leave a gap a Fex (etc) can whack an unsuspecting unit of Tac's off the horizon. I've considered dropping the Plasmacannons for some Missiles to help with this, but the Plasmacannons have always been more effective overall, bearing in mind I play millions more marine armies than most others. I've also got little to deal with Light tanks easily because I lack autocannons and missiles etc. so I go blowing 1 up a turn with a Lascannon while I spend 1 or 2 turns blasting the Raider forward to get the Powerfists stuck in.
Anyway, thanks in advance, and any comments and criticisms welcome
EDIT: I've made some changes to the list regarding LastDinosaurs comments, I've generally added more overall Firepower to the list: I've removed the Librarian and the Scouts, and replaced them with a TL Las Predator and a Venerable Dread with Lascannon. I've also Rhino'd the third tac squad, and put Meltabombs in all three with some spare points (after removing the Claws). Any queries or issues I have are in red.
Last edited by Humaneater; April 27th, 2010 at 20:17.
Let me make myself clear here, this is certainly -not- a shooty list.
Your 'shooty' 1750 pts list fields much less shootiness than my 1000 pts shooty lists, this is a concern if you play it as such.
You only have two weapons of range 48" and two of range 36", and only the lascannon pose an anti-vehicle threat.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see you winning against any decently played mechanized force out there.
Against dedicated shooters you'd get blown to pieces and have no hope of getting across the board with the little mobility you sport.
Against dedicated assaulters you have no anti-tank gears to stop their transports from driving their cargo across the board ready to slaughter you.
Against mobile enemies you are too slow to respond to them picking out your units.
And generally in objectives you lack mobility, you won't win if you just stay in your deployment zone, in kill points I really feel you need more bite.
I really don't know where to start so I'll just do it like this.
I just don't see it working, sorry..
Wow, I knew it needed some work but I didn't realise it was that bad xD. Overall, I can see tanks would be a problem. I think that a lack of anti-tank firepower is, and always has been my problem, since I'm used to using BA old "codex" (and don't like the new one alot, so meh), who were effectively DA with ass squads as troops. I have generally alot of Anti-tank firepower.
Sicarius is a big ish investment, but the Ld10 helps ALOT with morale, and a bad morale can screw over a (attempted) shooty list by losing an important squad. I find this applies to Marines in general.
I'll consider losing the Epistolary and making the Lib more focused. Since I'm running the Redeemer and have no intention of dropping it (oh yeah, it was for the termies), I'm tempted to use him for a more damage oriented character, in which case I'll go for Avenger/Smite and... any suggestions? Vortex looks nice but very risky for him and his unit (which is why I avoid it), and the others aren't all that. Machine Curse, I can see its use but not in alot of cases and Force Dome could protect me against low AP weapons, but not that well. Any advice here?
The tactical squads have always performed. In kill points missions I don't see how combat squadding would benefit, since I end up with a squad of 5 marines throwing themselves away and another squad of 5 firing a few bolter shots and a heavy weapon around. The drop pod was a last minute addition since I just bought it and found it fun. thrid one hasn't had any need for a rhino so far, or razor.
Scouts aren't looking great until you put them on, it doesn't aways work but when it does its awesome. The assassination tactic works awesomely. They're not as bad in combat as you'd think, just an annoyingly low weapon skill. I can see that they don't synergise that well though. Perhaps drop these for some Devvies, Lascannons are looking to be my best addition to this force.
Termies are going in the redeemer. what I'm tempted to do is swap these for 9 sternguard (what I can fit here I think) and putting these in the drop-pod. They won't necessarily sit idle for a turn like a tactical squad, and I needn't worry about throwing them away after they've done their job because they're not scoring.
If I do so, and nothing goes in the redeemer, I'll probably swap the redeemer for a Pred with Lascannon turret and some Devvies. Or 2 Pred's. Dunno.
As for the Whirlwind, I'm considering another
Anyway, after reading your comments, you're making sense, although I can imagine you're exaggerating a little. Your points still stand though so I'll try and incorporate some of your ideas. Do these sound better? If so, I'll amend the list. Thanks for commenting
Last edited by Humaneater; April 26th, 2010 at 22:14.
I get a more well-rounded feel from this list than I did from the previous one.
I realize that this is probably how you glued your tanks together and what bits you had but:
I'd definetly change the TLLC/HB predator to a AC/LC one, not only is it cheaper it should also do a better job at what you really want it to (explanation somewhere up there ^). I'd also arm the dreadnought with two TLAC, I think the TLLC on the dread is a bit too expensive and while there's been written whole books obout the "ML vs. AC" I feel the twinlink tips the favour to the AC in this situation.
I'm not sure either whether the venerability is worth it on the dreadnought. Don't use them so much anymore and always fielded them without it as the points can be spent nicely elsewhere.
I'd get the claws back on the tacticals or even go for fists. Also remember that you don't have to use the droppod, you can have the tacticals placed on a homeobjective and use the pod for cover or blocking LoS from enemy shooters, then grab other objectives with the rhino squads. You mentioned a meltagun in the battleplan, but it's not showing on the list.
Alot of people claims that predators and vindicators works best in pairs, not sure if it's true or whether I've just been brainwashed, but switching the whirlwind for another predator if you have one mightn't be a bad idea. Alternatively you could take the landraider as a dedicated transport and find the points for a predator elsewhere (hint hint Sicarius =P).
That was some more ideas that fell out of my head, remember though that this is all just my take on it =)
To be honest, all of the Special Chars for marines are ultimately based on preference, I only like a couple of them and I'm never convinced about losing Combat Tac's, the one rule that makes marines so good at shooting small squads to bits. I personally feel that Sica is one of the few who give you what you pay for.
You're right that alot of this is based on how I put the tanks together, I totally agree about the AC/LC pred rather than TLLC now I've read your maths, so as soon as I can I'll do so. The dread, I don't have any Autocannons, which isn't particularly helpful. The TL Las has proved quite nice in other games for early tank hunting though so I'll stick with it till I can get and playtest some AC's.
The meltabombs and can be swapped for one claw, and as for the other I suppose I could find points somewhere else, although I don't know where. These were nice defenses if I occasionally charged/got charged so I'll hopefully get them back in.
The pod I might lose for another Rhino, or swap all three Rhinos for Pods so I can get 2 down turn 1. As I say, I'm used to BA with full Assault Squads so I have only the one rhino for now, which probably isn't helpful.
Again the TH/SS thing is a model supply issue, but I'm working on that at the top of my priority list. The ultimate intention is a shooty list here so I'm not sure how they'll fit over the fire support
EDIT: Oh, and the Meltagun thing was a typo, I was going to put one in but removed it from the list and forgot the description. Thanks for pointing that out
Last edited by Humaneater; April 27th, 2010 at 20:16.