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I posted a somwhat simula list a few weeks ago, and won two games with it. It recieved some critisism, and together with the game experience I got with it, I have though of this new revised list.
The them is mobility and firepower, with a few "anvil" elements.
Terminator Libarian with Stormshield - 140
- Null Zone and Possibly Vortex of Doom
- Provides Psi defense and enhance fire with null zone
Assault Terminators (x6) - 240
- 5 Hammers and 1 Claw
- Act as body guards for libarian, as well as counter assault.
Landspeeder Squadrons (2x2) - 360
- w/Missile Launchers
- Primary damage dealing units
- Keeps at range and/or in cover. Able to deal with transports, MC and hordes.
Landspeeder Squadron (x2) - 140
- w/Multi-Melta & Heavy Flamer
- "Ambush" unit, helping to keep hostiles at bay.
- Target priority: Land Raiders with embarked units.
Tactical Squads (2x10) - 380
- w/ Plasma Cannon, Meltagun and Combi-Melta.
- Units split. Meltas ride in Razorback (below).
- Plasma Cannon targets heavy infantry or light vehicles.
Razorbacks (x2) - 150
- w/ TL-Lascannons
- Early game pot shots at transports.
- Expect no more than 4 hits from flimsy vehicles.
- Good Cover for Landspeeders.
Predator "De-nihalator" - 120
- w/ Autocannon and Las-Sponsons
- Fire Support
- Expect difficulity in placement
Vindicator - 120
- w/ Dozerblade
- Close range Fire Support
- Hides early game, and hopfully creates a zone of control.
Scout Squad (x5) - 100
- w/ Snipers, Cloaks and a Missile Launcher
- Final scoring unit.
- Get lucky on a MC, or pin a low ld unit.
Transports are primary targets, as this army cannot deal with too many melee hostiles at any one time. By the same account, winged monsters are also high priority.
Secondary targets are long ranged units, to secure fire supperiority, and defend my flimsy vehicles.
Only when the above two are completed, can I start working on hostile troops.
The vindicator, hammer-nators and MM&HF Landspeeders will hopefully hold elite hostiles at bay, by creating a zone of control. I really do not expect them to be allowed many kills by my opponent.
The list has a missile output of 9, las of 3, 2 plasmacannons and 2 autocannons.
IMO this is quite a lot of firepower, but it is best against MC and transports. It will do well against an elite army, but might suffer in the face on a balanced force.
Earlier I used Lysander as HQ, but I do agree with my critics, that in this army he is not worth 200. The libarian provides both psi-defense and fire enhancement (in the form of null zone). As I do not trust "gate" without any beacons, I guess I will go for vortex or avenger. The vortext could give me an extra chance against Armor 14 vehicles - and it has the cooler name
Any advice on tactics or list modifications are welcome, as the last advice I got was really usefull.
Personally I find squads of 5 scouts to weak and easy to kill, also 4 sniper rifles is not going to do that much, better off with bolters or bump squad up to 10 with sniper rifles.(personally)
I don't use razor backs, expensive but don't add much fire power either, if you want to screen something use rhinos, they can also transport your troops as bigger squads.
A squad of five scouts with camo cloaks in a ruined building are one of the hardest units to kill in the game. Sniper rifles with a missile launcher make a scout squad a nice spike in the ass for the opponent. Your objective squads don't need to be big, they are small for a reason like staying in cover and not spending more than you need to for a unit that objective sits and provides some form of fire support in a kill point game.
I have played with the five man scout squad countless of times, or a 10 man split into two. I have found that they are great at just sitting on an objective. Snipers are chosen over bolters simply because of range - not damage output. When that is said, this squad have taken down thier share of wraithlords.
The razorbacks are one of the units im unsure of. In most missions I will be spilting my tacticals, but I still lack the firepoints for the melta-weapons. However, I do think my list need those lascannons to relaibly deal with AV 12 - saving some of the missiles for MEQs/Hordes. I have run 1-2 dreads with las, but the difference in investment is 95 points, if Im still to have a rhino.
Maybe I can do without las? I will have to test that. What do you think I should take for those 80 points? I could pull the ML from the scouts and one hammer-nater for a total of 130 points.
I'm of the opinion that upgrading the guns on a razorback is a waste of points - it's a transport, with a gun on top for when you get into position. Firing the guns means you're not moving at top speed. Lascannons aren't as great as they seem, I personally would try and get the points for another predator or landspeeder with assault cannon.
So do you guys think I change the razors for rhinoes and drop a hammer-nater. Use those points for another Predetor "De-nihalator"?
Advantages: More shots, More AV13, Ability to transport tactical squads, Firepoints for melta weapons.
Disadvantages: Less accurate fire, +1 kill point, More (Lascannon-) eggs in fewer baskets. Worse LoS for those Lascannons (lower and on different sides).
I think you may find the list is less mobile than you'd hoped - consider all you have pushing forwards is the vindicator, footslogging terminators, and a pair of soon to be disembarked combat squads with no close combat weapons.
Heavily armed razorbacks can be effective but are better suited to the space wolf spam o' war lists - there just arn't enough alternative targets to protect them here.
Well, concerning mobility I actually did not think of the vindi, terms and other elements to move forward. I would instead precent the opponent with an anvil of slow units, that would only manuever to: get cover, get LoS, engage or disengage. The mobility is the firepower I get from the Speeders, able to support a flank, flank the opponent and harress him. A more appropiet name might then be Mixed range gunline with fast-flanking elements, and zone of control.
But OK, you have convinced me, I will strip the transports of weapons, and go with something else. As I just read a post on dropdreads, that would be to concider.
Advantages: Up in your face, 1st turn press, Taking "some" attention, making the opponent not deploy.
Disadvantages: Sacrificial unit, more kill points (drop pods suck in that way), Feeding hostile short ranged weapons and early assaulters, Dawn of War deployment sucks.
With all the disadvanges, and the fact that 120-130 point wont cut it, I might have to do the predator instead. I will however think about the dropdread. Hope you guys have some advice.
First thoughs on the matter:
Ironclad: The opponent will have to direct more firepower than vs. a normal dread. It can easely be kittet to endanger both vehicles and infantry. The cost will run atleast 180 points, as I will invest in the heavy flamer.
Multi-Melta Dread: Cheaper (140 w/o flamer), but weaker.
AC Dread: Good all-around. Drop Pod counters short range of AC. 150 pts.
Investing in HF for the normal dreads is a possibility, but the lower chance of survival might result in wasted points.
This is a copy and paste advice that i gave in a different thread.
First of all, may i recommend rhino tactical squads with melta guns and power fists? Have about three of themn and a scout squad of five with rocket and snipers for objective sitting. Then take two libbies with null zone and might of heroes and give the libbies some bikes. Then you have three units of 2 attack bikes each with multi-meltas and stick two libbies with them to support your army.
I would only ever suggest drop pod armies to the space wolves, because they don't have attack bike squads, but i think you need rhinos and attack bikes which will make the chaos marines shudder as attack bikes are very good value for points and they essentially have 36" multi-meltas due to their movement.
2x librarian with bikes ( they stay with the attack bikes until you tactical marines can get into combat and depending on who your facing, might of heroes your sergeant with the power fist or your libby ) Or you can null zone a daemon prince and watch him die to multi-melta and missile launcher spam.
3x tactical marine squads with melta weapons and a power fist in rhinos
1x scout squad in camo cloaks, snipers and a missile launcher
3x units of 2 attack bikes with multi-meltas.
This should give you a very mobile force that can deal with almost anything.
Then i would suggest either units of devestators with missile launchers or sternguard squads (5 man squads) with lascannons. Never take more than two sternguard or two devestator squads in 1500 points. Mix and match if you want, but i think the devestators will be better due to more firepower and you already have attack bikes and melta weapons from your tactical squads.
The tacticals should not be split if you go rhino rush, because they are easy meat as five man squads and offer too many kill points
I hope my advice helps. Also dreadnoughts tend to be very prone to inactivity of any kind after their smoke has gone and for the amount of points they cost, you could have got a lot more. For instance an ironclad or reasonably tooled up dread costs at least 2.5 attack bikes with multi-meltas. And because they have better mobility, they will look your dreadnoughts look like cheap turrets.
I think I got in on that other threat. And while its sound advice, its a totally different army. The army might be better, but I just love speeders.
I have run attack bikes too, and with good success. The one arguemnt that made me shift to speeders with MM&HF is that they cant be locked in CC.
3 Tacticals? I consider the vanila marines to have the worst troops in the game. I have heard people argue that its just a matter of skill, but the same could be said for any troop choice, but its the starting point that makes the different.
After some hours of thought I think the army would benifit from another vindi, instead of razors (last 40 pts from hammer-nater). Im actually thinking to shift the pred for a 3rd vindi. Well Im quite drunk now, so I might have to wait with my final dissition.