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I'm looking for a general, all purpose Krieg list using the updated Siege List from Forgeworld.
I want to utilise most of the various elements that make Krieg cool - Quartermaster, Death Riders, Engineers / Hades drill etc.
Here's my list so far, I guess I can see right off I'm probably lacking in anti-vehicle fire. My friend's have a variety of armies (Eldar/Tau/Dark Angels/Tyranids/Necron).
Company Command: Commander w/ Bolt pistol & powersword; Regimental Standard; Vox Caster; Master of Ordnance. Carapace Armour (142)
Quartermaster (x) (since no upgrades wasn't sure if I'm allowed to post costs, but it's the same points cost as basic Krieg infantry squad)
5 man Grenadier Squad, Heavy Flamer, Centaur (170)
5 man Grenadier Squad, Meltagun, Flamer, Centaur (160)
5 man Death Rider Squadron: Ridemaster w/ powersword (100)
Leman Russ Executioner: Lascannon & Plasma Cannons (245)
Leman Russ Battle Tank Squadron (2 x LRBTs), Heavy Bolters (340)
Command Squad: Commander w/ Bolt pistol & powersword; Platoon Standard; Vox Caster
3 x Infantry Squad w/ Grenade launcher OR flamer
2 x Heavy Weapon Teams w/ Lascannons
(567 for all)
5 man Engineer Squad, mole launcher, gas grenades, Hades Breaching Drill (135)
TOTAL 1994 points.
Some of the above contradicts a little I think, like taking mole launcher AND gas grenades. I'd love to put a couple of commissars in there if I could. Perhaps get rid of one Leman Russ? Are Medusa's much better than Earthshakers (I'm thinking yes).
Any suggestions / criticisms welcome.
Ugh this turned into a much bigger post than I realise. I've gone through your list option by option and explained what I like and don't like about it based on my experience with the list:
Some stuff here I really endorse - the death riders are great counter-charge units and very fluffy, the Engineers are awesome, the Master of Ordinance is excellent.
However I don't like how you have the force set up. You seem to be thinking about it like it's the regular IG list with a few tweaks. From what I've experienced playing it, it's a totally different beast alltogether:
2 key things to keep in mind -
#1 you're close combat focused, at least 50% of your killing is going to be done with bayonettes, but you're weak (albeit stubborn) guardsmen. That means winning with attrition, you need lots of bodies to throw at assaults to overwhelm the enemy. You're already stubborn so you don't need to blob up which means you have flexibility to move around and counter-assault at the best points, but your current list just doens't have enough bodies to do that. You're relying on tanks when you need to rely on infantry squads.
#2 Your men are meant to fight and die, don't try to give any of them multiple roles, you'll weaken their one shot to do something useful. Stuff like the melta gun + flamer on the Grenadiers is really not a good idea, it's better they kill the thing the melta gun is pointed at rather than having a flamer in reserve in case they somehow survive to use that too.
From the top I'll give some un-restrained criticism, take it as advice rather than absolute prescription, it's based on my vision of the Krieg army as much as anything.
Coy Command Squad: Bolt pistols suck, power swords are okay, Power Fists however are awesome. 40k armies are T4 base that means wounding on 2+ rather than 5+. They also insta-kill units like farseers which is awesome.
I like the standard and the MoO. Carapace armour however seems like a bad idea. Firstly, read the FAQ about why the Coy Commander doesn't use a refractor field. Secondly you'll be in cover most of the time anyway so you'll get a 4+ save from most shooting. Couple it with the Quartermaster's "feel no pain" and you're sorted for a few rounds of combat.
The role of the squad is really to keep the Coy Commander alive, and his job is to swing his power fist. With that in mind, a bodyguard will do a much better job since you can use wound allocation to absorb a disgusting number of hits on the bodyguard.
Grenadiers - They are utterly over-costed, for an army biased towards close combat they loose the hotshot laspistol that makes stormtroopers half-decent in close combat. The only reason I like them is the look. They are so cool looking with their death's skull faceplates. However for the cost they seem hard to justify.
Think about their roles. They have a mixed loadout which isn't really good and they're riding in open-topped AV11 vehicles. While suicide squads are okay and a 2x melta gun loadout might work(ish) against tanks, suicide squads with low chances of success that cost 170 points are not a good investment, use the Platoon Command Squads in that melta-gun point defence role and get regular inf.
The only half-decent loadout for Grenadiers I can see is 10x of them with 2x melta guns and maybe a demo charge in order to deal with MEQs in drop pods coming into the back field. Still, you need more bodies for the close combat meatgrinder and this is the best place to secure the points to get them.
Death Riders - I'd add another one, 6 is a good number. The power sword is a waste of points though, they are a one-shot unit and their lances count as power weapons on the charge. If they've not broken and run down the enemy on the turn you charge then they're dead meat anyway. Save your points.
In the fast attack slot you've also got cyclops demo charges. These are awesome (!) I'd get a couple cos they're cheap and the enemy is scared of them. I've not found out if you can detonate them over units in assault but if you can then they are probably overpowered as a counter-charge unit. Even if not, they are still very nice in that role, blowing up any units that don't space out properly.
With the heavy slots, yeah you want the Medusa, no downsides to it at all as far as I can see. It's what the Medusa in the IG codex should have been, a long ranged indirect fire Demolisher.
The Leman Russes, meh the Executioner is over-hyped. I'd cut it, it's 275 points(!) Get another Medusa and some quad guns, artillery is way better value and looks smart in a Krieg army. TBH vehicles are bait for AT weapons. You don't have Chimera saturation to protect your armour and I'd rather take none and leave his lascannons as wasted points. Oh you fried a guardsman? Good for you!
With your troops - you need more. The Siege Army fundamentally comes down to bayonettes. You need to win through attrition and that means at least 2x the number of squads. I take 7 infantry squads in my 1500 points list as well as a ton of other support troops.
I chucked in tanks when we went to 2k but only because I was out of infantry, if you're in that situation, well I do sympathise!
There is plenty of fat in this army though, trimming it will leave plenty of points for more guardsmen.
Your platoon squads are not set up in a way that I like. They are pretty much the only units that can pack heat in the whole army. I tool them up to be troubleshooters. I have 3 PCS with 2x melta and a power fist. If the enemy is crashing about with stuff like dreadnaughts I use the PCS to take them down with melta. If combat gets joined the PCS can counter-charge with the power fist to deal some wounds.
The banners are trash. +1 Combat res for 15 points? IMO that's really not worth it. You win with attrition, drowning the enemy in bodies and refusing to run when dozens of guardsmen are taken down.
The power sword should become a power fist. The PCS is just a mini CCS.
And what's with the Vox only on your command squads? Will they order themselves? I can see a few cases where it may work if they're set up right but I'd just cut them and save the points.
The inf squads are set up how I use them too. TBH grenade launchers are probably better because they will get to fire. Flamers are unlikely to be used because stubborn infantry tend to survive a round of assaulting and so when you counter-assault you won't get to fire.
2x lascannon squads is okay. I'd rather see 3x but I get that points get tight. Consider combining a weapon squad with an infantry squad to keep them protected. I didn't realise you could do it until recently and it adds a lot of ablative wounds in case the enemy gets dirty and shoots autocannons or multilasers at them.
I love the Engineers but you're suffering from the same loadout syndrome of trying to do more than one thing with each squad. You need to pick if you want the engineers to be an overpriced heavy weapon team or a kickass assault unit. Since you've already taken the Hades you may as well go the assault route. Keep the gas grenades, swap the mole launcher for a demo charge and give the watchmaster melta bombs.
You can assault backfield objective-holder type units with them the turn they appear. Although the Hades deepstrikes the engineers count as moving in from reserve so they can move in from the Hades hole, thrown their demo charge, shoot their gas and shotguns and then assault for mass damage. Anything that survives the Hades arrival will be shredded by these nasty gits. If the backfield unit is in some kind of transport then the Hades can have a go at them and if they survive then the Melta bombs + Krak grenades are a good backup.
I really do like the Krieg list. It's not competitive at all, they deliberatly cut out pretty much everything remotely good from the standard IG list for this update. However it forces you to play the IG they write about in the Vraks books, not the IG we tend to play on the tabletop with tons of special weapons and vehicles.
You'll suffer on every front. Your men have one attack, they are toughness 3, their guns are some of the worst in the game... but if you hold the line you'll get really fun games out of it. The Krieg are basic guardsmen through and through but they are basic guardsmen at their best. The small perks they get (at the expense of every cool trick in the codex) mean that while you'll get to see your men dying in huge numbers, sometimes you'll also get to see them win through
Last edited by Korona; April 1st, 2011 at 04:22.
Copy, Improve, Innovate
Firstly Korona, can I just say thanks for taking the time and effort to write such a detailed critique. That's above and beyond, really appreciate it. I'll write a response now, then later I'll re-post a newer list.
I haven't played any WH40K for 2 years, so it'll be good to get the fella's back out there. Here's some quick things:
Infantry - I definitely agree with the need for more men - 3 infantry squads isn't enough, especially using an army themed around attrition warfare. So my newer list has 5 or 6 squads.
Grenadiers - I was seeing them as somehow supporting my engineers when they arrive, as they would be pretty much left to themselves. I was thinking about a heavy flamer careering around on a centaur, but you're right, two squads does cost a lot. But agreed, the minitures are really cool, so I'll just use a 10 man squad, with probably a melta thrown in.
Leman Russ - I'd heard good things about the plasma kitted out Russ. It's pricey, really pricey, but it could decimate whole squads of marines. But thinking about it, it sounds a little too hi-tech for the Krieg I think of, so I'm thinking of just running with two basic russes (as I had) alongside the Medusa as my Heavy slots. With the saved money I can spend it on a further Lascannon team, and more squads.
I've added a commissar with powerfist to the Infantry Platoon command, and thrown a powerfist onto the Coy Command and the Platoon command.
I might have kept/made room for a cyclops too I think, and left out the powersword on the Ridemaster.
Oh, and I just forgot to write down the vox on the infantry squads - they were included.
Anyway, as I say I'll write up the newer list, but for now, thanks once again for all the suggestions. Is there still the 'rep' thing on Librarium? I'll do that now if so!
Haha cheers, welcome back to the Guard!
I like the Krieg list a lot but it doesn't get much attention so I'm happy to spread the word
YouTube - SM Vs. IG .wmv
This is a load of Executioners in action to make a point. People do love them and I'm sure in certain circumstances they are pretty nasty but they just aren't versatile in an allcomers list. The regular Russ does good against marines and it will also do well against light vehicles, can insta-kill multi-wound T4 troops like Tyranid Warriors or Ork Nobz and will come in at a much lower overall cost.
For my money thinking of the Russ as a gun platform isn't the best way to treat it. None of the variants give great value for money in terms of what they kill. However AV14 can absorb a fair bit of fire and in this type of list will give great cover if you want to advance across open ground. Alternativly, use it to get in the way of enemy assaults. If you can block their approach routes you can give yourself the charge instead of allowing the enemy to just run up and punch you.
Last edited by Korona; April 3rd, 2011 at 01:42.
Copy, Improve, Innovate
Been away on holiday so haven't really been thinking about WH40K much.
Anyway, here's my amended list as promised such a long time ago!
Company Command Squad: Commander with Powersword; Regimental Standard; Vox; Master of Ordnance
10 man Grenadier Squad: 2 Meltaguns
2 Heavy Mortars
Command Squad: Commander with Powerfist; Vox; Meltagun; Commissar with Powerfist
6 x Infantry Squads (vox, flamer/grenade launcher)
3 x Heavy Weapon Platoons (Lascannons)
5 Engineers with gas grenades; demolition charge; Hades Drill
1 Cyclops Demolition Vehicle
Medusa Siege Gun
Leman Russ Demolisher
I think it totals 1995.
The Company Commander is to stand near some lascannon's, keeping them from legging it whilst throwing down some ordnance from on high.
The Quartermaster is to be near the Infantry Command squad and some of the infantry squads.
The Leman Russes are for the MEQ's and to absorb heavy fire.
The Heavy Mortars are there just to annoy the hell of out my mates by throwing relentless pie plates at him.
The Deathriders are for counter-charge / a specific terminator looking threat.
Personally, I feel the grenadiers are overpriced and a bit lame. I'd cut them and pick up a barebones platoon with 3 squads in it. You'd need to downgrade one of the weapon teams to autocannons but that's probably a good idea anyway to get more medium strength shots. Then you attach one HWS to each of the infantry squads to make them nearly unkillable from shooting rather than seeing them squshed by a few krak missiles on turn one.
Still, grenadiers do look awesome...
If you stick with your current list I think you'll do fine but do find a 5pt upgrade for those last 5 points, it's so sad to see them go to waste! Maybe melta bombs for your engineer's watchmaster?
Copy, Improve, Innovate