Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
I know it is a while of yet but I need to start putting my force togeather now because I don't get much time to work on it. Anyways here is my force I intend to throw down, some pointers would be great. I am coming back to 40k after being out of it for a while and also have never been to a tournament, so would like so view points on how the army may fair and possibly what to expect. Well to the list -
HQ - 220
Grandmaster - Master Crafted Halberd, 3 x servo skulls, Rad & Blind grenades
ELITES - 185
3 x Paladins - 1 x Incinerator, 2 x Halberds, 1 x Hammer (all CW master crafted)
TROOPS - 430
5 x Terminators - 1 x Psilencer, 4 x Halberds, 1 x Hammer
5 x Terminators - 1 x Psilencer, 4 x Halberds, 1 x Hammer
FAST ATTACK - 400
5 x Interceptors - 1 x Incinerator, 3 x Halberds, 1 x Hammer
Stormraven - Assault Cannon, Multimelta, Psybolt ammo
HEAVY SUPPORT - 515
5 x Purgation/ors? - 3 x Psycannon, 1 x Psilencer
Razorback - Assualt cannon, Psybolt ammo
Land Raider Redeemer - Multimelta, Psybolt ammo
Anybody care to comment please. I know there are alot of lists being posted at the moment, but would appreciate some feedback. Thanks
Usually, posting how you're going to use it let's people understand your mindset and can help.
I don't like it much. One storm raven is going to get shot up pretty badly.
Redeemer isn't bad (probably the "best" of the three LRs), but it doesn't really gel with the rest of your army. You could drop this to get a second storm raven.
Scoring units is a bit low for 1750. Yes, you will have 3 (with your Grand Strategy, if you use it as such), and a CHANCE at more, but to me, this is too low. At 1750, you should have 4, guaranteed.
The problem in a list like this, is that against an army like Guard or Space Wolves, they can eat it alive. There's not a ton of ranged shooting, which is fine, you plan on getting close, but even if you get first turn, it's going to require a *lot* of luck to pull off.
Zagman's got a great Terminator-based list, if you want to go that route, and Jy2's got some great lists too. This one...for 1750 just lacks much of anything, in my opinion.
Thanks for the reply cKerensky.
Fair point on explaining howI intend to use the force. Terminators in reserve deep strike onto objectives using skulls for accuracy. Purgation squad sits in cover or completely hidden (using astral aim). Interceptors will hug cover and attack isolated units or small specialised units. GM and Paladins ride in redeemer towards big targets/threats. Razorback used for targeting war walkers etc or transports, move around and be a distraction. Stormraven runs solo, or with 1 unit or terminators going after armoured targets, only expect to survive 1 or 2 turns, can do what it needs in that time anyway.
I don't see how two stormravens is better from a targeting point of view than a storm and raider? Also what do you mean it does not gel with the rest of the army? Could you please explain why? it is an up close assault vehicle, that is what raiders are for. Also in a small model army it's flamers are great against horde armies.
I get what you saying about my troops units being too few, but at the same time anything can contest in objective based games. Also I just could not fit more in unless I downgraded the paladins to a normal unit or terminators, but then i like the idea of my GM being accompanied by his body guards.
Also I know I have no long ranged shooting, but then again I don't think that is what grey knights are about. I do have 24 str7 rending shots a turn though (12 of which are twin linked), coming from 4 units. I have to say that this is a scary amount of firepower and chews through transport/armour heavy armies in 2 turns.
I appreciate your feed back. However you said that usually posting how I intend to use my force would help, at the same time posting the reasons behind why you think something is not a good idea is helpfull aswell.
I'll see if I can expand upon my responses for you...
...It's not so much impotant that you have two storm ravens, but rather, two threats that are similar. As strange as it sounds, with a Land raider and a Storm Raven, the Storm Raven is going to get shot down. It's only AV12, and it packs a lot of firepower, in essence, it becomes a no-brainer target. Most lists are designed to kill AV12 vehicles, and having a Storm Raven AND a land raider only serves to force your opponents hand on your Storm Raven.
As for the Land Raider not gelling, generally they're taken in pairs (for the reason I described above) in an assault heavy list. IE: All or nothing (my buddy calls them Rock lists).
As I had said about a ton of ranged shooting, it's not *really* required at all, since GKs can pull off Mid-range shooting better than anyone. (Hell, my current Dreadnaught Build, which I call the Rainman setup, has a TLAutocannon and Assault Cannon /w Psybolts. Strong mojo indeed). The problem here is the Psilencer. They're terrible, absolutely terrible. As much as I prefer to rely on my personal experience and not mathammer, Psilencers are so bad that I have to mention it: Psycannons are better in every way. S4 AP-, Heavy 6, or S7, AP4, Heavy 4, Rending.
The purgeton squad I can see why you'd like it for astral aim, but I'm not a huge fan of them. Lemmie see if I can throw together a quick 1750 list that is similar to this.
--You lose your grandmaster, but as you'll see, because of it you'll have a guaranteed 5 scoring units.
3x Paladins, daemon Hammer, 2x NFWs, all MC'd CCWs (like what you have)
-->6 Nemesis Force Halberds
-->1 Daemon Hammer
--> Psybolt Ammo
Combat Squad these guys evenly.
Knight of the Flame
-->4x Nemisis Force Halberds
-->1x Daemon hammer
Razorback (TL-Heavy Bolter)
Keep them together, or, combat squad, with 4 Psycannons in 1 squad (emulating a purgeton squad), with other half in razorback.
Grey Knight Strike squad
4x Grey Knights
-->1x Daemon Hammer
-->1x Nemesis Force halberd
-->1x Nemesis Force Sword (wound allocation shenanigans)
Razorback (TL-Heavy Bolter)
-->TL Assault Cannon
-->TL Assault Cannon
The Strike squad you *can* swap it and it's transport for an interceptor squad. The point of that particular unit is for Deep Strike Defense (warp quake).
By no means is this list ideal, I just threw it together, but it takes what you've got and, I think, preserves the spirit, while adding a little more shooting/redundancy.
(Your terminators are now even more scary. Psybolt ammo for the win!)
Last edited by cKerensky; May 7th, 2011 at 23:35.
Ditch the MC halberd on the Grandmaster for a sword. I7 is unecessary and the 3++ in CC is going to get you better mileage. With the GM, it would be great to see a Psycannon on him.
The paladin squad is illegal, you cannot have an incinerator without having at least 5 models. Also, MCing everything isn't crucial. Either find a way to bump them up to 5 models with two psycannons, or leave them out of your list.
The psilencer is an inferior weapon. Those terminators require psycannons.
The interceptor squad is fine, though an expensive one shot unit. I'd like to see a psycannon instead for a harassment unit.
The SR is fine, though only three armor values at 1750 is risky, especially since all three AVs are vastly different. Your opponent shouldn't have any issues with target priority here.
Your Purgation quad is a confusing setup. There are other more efficient ways to get psycannons into your list. Mounting them in a Razorback is even more of an issue, you give up 4/8 shots on the move for 4 TL shots. You also pay more for it.
LRR, is just fine. I'd prefer the Crusader, but thats just me.
I'd drop your paladins and purgation squad for two 5man purifier squads and two psycannons. This should just about net you enough for a pysconnon on your GM as well. You would then make the purifiers scoring with The Grand Strategy. Also need Psycannons on those terminators.
This would give you an additional armor value as well as increase your firepower and CC threat.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you on a few points Zag:
Psycannons on Terminators are stupidly expensive. Incinerators are a much better choice for them. If he takes a squad of 10,he'd take Psybolts, which, while not as good at some tasks, are arguably better at others.
Psycannons on interceptor squads are fine, but this is actually where I wouldn't mind seeing an Incinerator or two. They're expensive here, but for a good reason. Think about the 30 inch shunt followed up by an incinerator.
Storm Raven, IMO, isn't fine. Not on it's own, and not in this list.
On the purgeton squad: My guess is their razorback is just an excuse to get a TL-AC.
You're correct on the Incinerator, both my list and his has that wrong, though clearly he wants them to be a CC Monster, and considering MW here isn't costing him much, unless there's a better place to spend these points, they're fine...
..which boils down to the GK used in the way you described as a one trick pony. IF it's use is ONLY for its wargear and to make the purifier squad scoring, take Crowe. Cheaper, and same end result (and arguably even better in melee)
An incinerator on interceptors isn't a terrible idea, it is unfortunately suicidal in many cases. 5 intereceptors with a single incinerator isn't likely to cripple a squad and will likely be shot assaulted in return. I see that as a bad investment in many cases. Now, a 10 man interceptor squad with two incinerators and psybolts, now that is a viable unit IMO.
SRs can be run by themselves so long as there is enough other armor in the army to draw fire. In my earlier post I said this was a problem as he had too few AVs on the table to force tough target priority decisions.
3 paladins does not a CC unit make, even with MCed weapons. IMO paladins should be at least 5 strong otherwise they don't possess enough attacks to reliably take out threatening units. The proposed unit cannot reliable take out a tactical squad with a hidden fist. Any casualty is a significant reduction in combat potential. Also, 2 models have identical configurations and does not take full advantage of wound allocation. Also in his list he had three terminator/paladins squads and only two reliable transports which required one to be DSed or footslogged in. As much as I LOVE paladins(considering I play DriagoWing) I don't see a place for them in this list.
Crow works, but a GM(wisth psycannons) adds potentially more to the list without the associated hassle of Crowe. The GM CAN make units scoring in objective based games, but also adds a large degree of versitility to KP missions. Scout/Reroll 1s are very powerful. Crowe unfortunately must footslog or hijack someone else's transport. The GM, on the other hand can accompany as squad inside of the LR or the SR. He also adds a relatively easy KP as he'll fall just as easily as two terminators if you throw a couple of S4 attacks his way.
I can't agree with the Relentless Psycannons being worth 25 points each unless you're running an entirely terminator list, of which this isn't.
Now as for Interceptor squads, I do agree a 10 man squad with 2 incinerators and Psybolts is the way to go, but one with 5 and an incinerator is still a fine threat. You don't *need* the 30 inch shunt for them to be scary. The Incinerator will wipe out plenty of units in the game (Most non marines). Even if you don't do the 30 inch shunt to get it off, it'll get you more kills against 4+ then a Psycannon will. Besides, I think of them as being there more for their Deep Striking denial.
As for 3 Paladins not being a CC unit, I also agree. However, he had something in mind for his original list, so I decided to work with it. It's not a terrible unit, it's just not a great unit.
As for GM vs Crowe, it's something that, after playing the games I've had, I find myself almost never taking the GKGM anymore. He costs a *lot* for, admittedly a good unit, but if I take a purifier squad I'd rather take Crowe, and the points I save from the GKGM and upgrades I can throw towards something else.
That said, I don't disagree with any individual statement you're making on it's own, however, in this sort of list I don't see it the same way.
Thanks for the extra replies guys.
Thanks for the note on the paladin squad. Originally started out as a 5 man unit, and when I was jigging the list I did not think about needing to remove the incinerator. The reason behind their mastercrafted close combat weapons is with the grandmaster they still do dish out the hurt. 10 PW attacks at I6+ Str5 (effectively Str6 with Rad) WS5 with re roll will hurt most units. (Plus 3 more from hammer)
The Interceptor squad as I said is there to go after either isolated, small, or small specialised units. Huggin cover they work fine, and can really hurt units of eldar, guard, dark, orks, tau, tyranids and even small 5 man squads of marines. My interceptor squad is the main thing that always reliable makes at least double it's points back, and is always one of my surviving units.
Purgation squad is not mounted in razorback.
I noticed both of you are keen on the purifiers. And at first so was I, but everyone one is using them and I wanted something a little different.
Reason I don't put psycannons in my terminator squad is because I don't want them shooting at armoured targets and wasting their stormbolters. All psycannons in my force are there either to shoot tanks or MC's. That is why units have very clear roles. Does not allow for much flexibility but they all have a purpose and do their purpose well.
Will have to look at jigging a few points though. It is very hard without changing the complete context of the force though. I am swinging towards loosing the LR for another Storm, would free up a few points aswell.