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  1. #1
    Son of LO Marnepup's Avatar
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    298 (x8)

    1750 points outflanking mechanized

    HQ:

    CCS with 3x plasma, astropath, and chimera w/HHF

    Troops:

    PCS (al'Rahem), with 4x melta, and chimera w/HHF

    INF with flamer, chimera w/HHF

    INF with flamer, chimera w/HHF

    INF with flamer, chimera w/HHF

    PCS, chimera w/HHB

    INF with autocannon and flamer, chimera w/HHB

    INF with autocannon and flamer, chimera w/HHB

    INF with autocannon and flamer, chimera w/HHB

    Fast Attack:

    Hellhound with extra armor, HHF

    2x scout sentinel

    2x scout sentinel with autocannons

    Heavy Support:

    Demolisher w/HHB

    LRBT w/HLC

    Griffon

    The idea is that one platoon plus the CCS plus the heavies provide fire support (and secure near objectives, as needed) for the outflanking (with rerolls) element consisting of four scoring chimmies and four sentinels. My old version of this army had neither the sentinels nor al'rahem, so it was forced, after two or three turns of a ridiculous amount of dakka, to advance straight into the teeth of whatever enemy survived....often, of course, most of that surviving enemy was in my deployment zone, and I had trouble breaking out to go after far objectives. I think this version, by sacrificing a lot of dakka (four chimeras off the table, for one thing, and downgrading a tank to a griffon, for another) actually makes the list stronger because it forces the enemy to secure both of his flanks, relieves crowding in my deployment zone, and should usually let my maneuver force get behind the enemy's maneuver force, either bypassing it to secure/contest his objectives, or hammering it against the anvil of my fire support. The +1 to deployment rolls will also have the effect of getting most, if not all, of my reserves on on turn two, giving me flank and rear shots at advancing transports (ok, for rhinos, it doesn't matter) while such a thing is still relevant. Thoughts? Suggestions?

    IG since 1999 __ DA since 2002 __ Tau since 2005 __ SoB since 2007
    Brets 1997-1999 __ TK since 2009 __ Empire since 2010

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  3. #2
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    417 (x7)

    that lone griffon doesn't lokk good imho. you can use those 75 points for another couple scout sentinels, for instance.
    And the flamers into the chimeras are redundant, don't you think? maybe a grenade launcher would fit better (another s6 shot to harm AV10-11 vehicles, since you outflank, isn't that bad.) or meltas, just scrap the sitting-back-infantry squads into chimeras.
    I don't use Vendettas or Valks...if Guardsmen were meant to fly, the Emperor would have given them wings. (343rd Mordian)
    The battle for Hidaxes SubSector (Listwar)! 184th Cadian blog: 184th.blogspot.com

  4. #3
    Son of LO Marnepup's Avatar
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    298 (x8)

    Hmm....I'm not thrilled about leaving a heavy slot empty...and the indirect fire of the griffon lets me shoot at what I can't see...at 75 points, it's a bargain... I think I'll be keeping the griffon.

    As for the flamers, do you mean the ones in al'rahem's platoon (the outflanking ones) or the ones sitting back in my deployment zone dishing autocannon fire?

    What do you mean by "scrap the sitting-back-infantry squads into chimeras?"
    IG since 1999 __ DA since 2002 __ Tau since 2005 __ SoB since 2007
    Brets 1997-1999 __ TK since 2009 __ Empire since 2010

  5. #4
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    417 (x7)

    i think part of my last sentence got lost throught my mind and the net

    what i meant was:
    All the normal flamers are redundand since you have the heavy ones into your chimeras. you should consider grenade launcher in their places. Or, scrap the flamers altoghether from the platoon which sits back, and provide meltas to the outflanking one.

    and if you must fill all the heavy slots, i'd take an hydra. it's no indirect, ok, but what hits gets a punch, and won't scatter.
    that's it
    I don't use Vendettas or Valks...if Guardsmen were meant to fly, the Emperor would have given them wings. (343rd Mordian)
    The battle for Hidaxes SubSector (Listwar)! 184th Cadian blog: 184th.blogspot.com

  6. #5
    Senior Member Intrepid's Avatar
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    780 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marnepup
    I think this version, by sacrificing a lot of dakka (four chimeras off the table, for one thing, and downgrading a tank to a griffon, for another) actually makes the list stronger because it forces the enemy to secure both of his flanks, relieves crowding in my deployment zone, and should usually let my maneuver force get behind the enemy's maneuver force
    I see where you're trying to go with this, especially since I face those annoying "Cheerleader Razorbacks hiding behind a Death Star" lists too, but sacrificing the Guard's primary advantage is a huge weakness. This list might work by using al'Rahem's platoon to contest and harass the enemy's home, and you'll certainly put paid to the bum rushes, but I don't like the idea of matching infantry/Chimera units against Marine/Razorback units (or Eldar Wave Serpents). Not without supporting dakka, anyway.

    You definitely need more transport-killing to make this "Mech al'Rahem" idea work. Those Razorbacks must die FAST to ensure that your Chimeras will survive and the enemy passengers will be vulnerable. Though it pains me to suggest it, I think you should trade in the Hellhound and LRBT for a third Sentinel squad...maybe an Armored squad this time, so they can start on the board and have a good chance at tarpitting when the enemy's offense comes near. I know you are already fielding lots of multi-lasers but that won't be enough; a savvy opponent could put a Predator at one end of his Razorback line, for example, with his front armor facing sideways. AV12 could also be a major problem and our typical selection of templates isn't well suited to handling masses of light armor.

    Alternatively to more Sentinels, use deepstriking Stormtroopers. They're good at cracking armor and Razorback squads will have trouble killing them unless the passengers climb out and risk a pie plate. This would also provide more low-AP weaponry for your list.

    Have you considered providing the outflanking infantry with krak grenades? They're a very humble weapon but giving them to just one or two of those infantry squads will give you an extra way to pop armor. I bet your opponent would never see it coming, too!

    A more generalist solution would be to employ an Alpha-strike distraction, maybe a Valkyrie with a melta-equipped SWS. Simply use the Scout move to fly the Valk into the enemy's face and expect it to die. This will seriously cut down on the enemy's movement because the Valk takes up a lot of space, and they can't ignore it because of the threat posed by the passengers. (If you have first turn then you could even perform a good ram while using this tactic!) This tactic will probably keep the enemy busy for Turn 1 and leave a big wreck in the enemy line of fire, which will give cover to the rest of your army for the remainder of the game (and vice versa, sadly). Should you face a non-mech opponent, the Valkyrie can still earn its keep by using more conventional tactics or rocket pods.

    Kudos for not relying on Veterans to make this approach work! It warms my bitter, iron heart to see a player going old-school to get the job done.
    "My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard

  7. #6
    Son of LO Marnepup's Avatar
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    298 (x8)

    How about if I drop the hellhound and the fire support platoon's flamers for a pair of armored lascannon sentinels? I'm not sure that'll be more effective against razorspam, since the hellhound can get upfield in a hurry to block and or clog maneuver lanes (and it's AWESOME against several non-MEQ armies), but I do like the idea of the armored sentinels holding something up in melee for a while mid-game.

    A hydra isn't a terrible idea, it'll certainly point-and-click one rhino/razor per turn regardless of obscuration...maybe what I need in my heavy slots, actually, is a pair of griffons, a hydra, and a demolisher...
    IG since 1999 __ DA since 2002 __ Tau since 2005 __ SoB since 2007
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  8. #7
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    417 (x7)

    autocannons are better to damage light vehicles.
    and an armoured sentinel with lascannon is about 70 point. are they worth it? hmmm... i am not sure.
    I don't use Vendettas or Valks...if Guardsmen were meant to fly, the Emperor would have given them wings. (343rd Mordian)
    The battle for Hidaxes SubSector (Listwar)! 184th Cadian blog: 184th.blogspot.com

  9. #8
    Son of LO Marnepup's Avatar
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    298 (x8)

    I agree that against AV11 and AV10, an autocannon is better...but a lascannon has potential to damage AV14, which an autocannon does not, and it is FAR better than an autocannon versus AV13 and the most common AV, which is 12. Anyway, I prefer to put my autocannons on scout sentinels, side shots do a lot to improve the quality of their fire! To me, armored sentinels have two purposes: tarpitting stuff in melee, and frontal shots...S7 is a bit on the weak side for that second purpose...so I prefer missile launchers or lascannons....and once you've already paid the points for the missile launcher on an armored sentinel, five points for a pip of strength (not to mention AP2!) is a bargain. Plasma sentinels seem like an interesting choice, but paying more for a PC than for a LC seems odd, when marines do the opposite. Perhaps that's because marines have BS4, so the lascannon's increased chance to hit is relatively more valuable than the plasmacannon's reduced scatter? I dunno...my biggest hangup with the PC sents is that you can get a medusa or a griffon for the same points cost...and two twinlinked autocannons that track skimmers, or a ordnance pieplate (in spite of its lower strength, the ordnance-2D6-pick-the-highest AP actually makes them better at penning light/medium vehicles) is a much better way to spend the points. I dunno, even with autocannons...60 points for one autocannon behind AV12, or 75 points for two twinlinked ones? Seems an easy choice. If armored sentinels didn't have a WS value, they'd be completely overcosted...and if scout sentinels didn't have "scout," they'd be overcosted.
    Last edited by Marnepup; July 21st, 2011 at 05:26.
    IG since 1999 __ DA since 2002 __ Tau since 2005 __ SoB since 2007
    Brets 1997-1999 __ TK since 2009 __ Empire since 2010

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