Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Hi everyone - I posted up a preliminary list a week or so ago, and after some feedback eventually came up with the list below. I've now had 6 games and I've got to grips with the new 5th edition rules and begun to learn how to use the army effectively, but now I'm looking to improve my army further and get your opinions on a few things which are at the bottom of the post, so just take a quick look at the list and scroll down to there if you want!
When designing the list I didn't realize how mechanized it was, with the long fangs usually being the only infantry deploying, with the rest of the army employing the old style "Rhino rush" tactic that used to be so effective. I must say it still seems to work as I've won 5 out of 6 of games I've played - below the list is a brief summary of how I got on, so you can better understand how my army works and hopefully give more informed advice!
Wolf Lord with Wolf Claw - 150 points
5 Wolf Gaurd - 4 with combi-melta/power fist - 190 points
Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon - 115
8 grey hunters with meltagun, power weapon, wolf standard - 150 points
9 grey hunters with meltagun, power weapon, wolf standard - 165 points
9 grey hunters with meltagun, power weapon, wolf standard- 165 points
9 grey hunters with meltagun, wolf standard - 150 points
4x Rhino APC - 140 points
5 Longs fangs with 4 missile Launchers - 115
Predators with Lascannons - 165 1505 points, 46 infantry, 6 vehicles.
Game 1: First up was a competitive Chaos army (Winged Deamon Prince, 2xPlauge Marines 1 in Rhino, Khorne/CSM in Rhino's 5 oblitorators) that I only narrowly beat on objectives (technical draw), I had the remnants of 2 Grey Hunter Squads on objectives and my commander left alive while he had a few immobilised rhino's and a squad of oblits! The game was highly tactical and a bit of a baptism of fire, but the total awesomeness (read: numerical advantage) of the Grey Hunter pulled me through - would've been a lot easier with some rapid fire plasma guns though, something that I'm considering to save some points and add some rapid fire punch.
Games 2 & 3: I then comfortably beat an elite but slow Grey Knight army (surrounded and rapid fired to death) and a (badly played) dark eldar list with my wolf lord personally finishing off Lilith in combat! The dread in both games did very little apart from attracting some firepower away from my rhino's.
Game 4: I played a tough looking mechanized ork list, and really struggled in this game - I just could not take out any of his 3 battlewagons, the missile launchers were practically useless against the tough AV14 of the front armour. His army pretty much reached my lines intact, but once again the Grey Hunters saved the day, and although they absolutely swamped me, the 2nd round combats were decisive, with the GH's being extremely potent thanks to the Wolf Standard!
Game 5: Then I got absolutely murdered by a Tyranid monstrous creature spam list with the (imo) ridiculously overpowered Doom of Malan'tai deepstriking and proceeding to kill half my army. I must admit my target selection (got scared by big things) and deployment (missile launchers out of site of everything) was poor, failed to deal with the 20 or so warriors who did the real damage once in CC. Thinking over it, a Vindicator would've been perfect for dealing with the warriors, so I'm thinking of swapping it straight in, removing the dreadnought, who although insta-deathed the Doom thingy failed to give fire support with his Plasma Cannon.
Game 6: Finally a relatively one sided game last night against another elite but slow army, this time Vanilla space marines (Chapter Master Librarium with 2 squads of termies 20 marines dread and a DS vanguard squad). I got the first turn, maneuvered into position and on the following turn unleashed rapid fire death on the termies and then finished off the rest in assault. The firebase worked very well here, giving good support, but yet again the dreadnoughts plasma cannon did barely anything.
SO looking over my army (in order) a few things have become clear, and these are my concerns that I want your opinions on:
Taking into account these concerns I could have a list that looks something like this:
- The Wolf Lord performs well in combat, the invulnerable save that people suggested is incredibly useful and saves a few guys, but I'm concerned he doesn't often pay back his 150 points. A Rune Priest is the conventional HQ choice for Wolves, but I'm not sure how he'd fit tactically into my Rhino rush strategy, any ideas?
- The Wolf Guard add major versatility to my Grey Hunter squads, with the choice of meltagun or extra boltgun shots (more useful then it sounds) and more often then not 3 power fist attacks. The downside of them though is the 43 points and that taking them means you can't get a 2nd (free) special weapon. In your opinion(s) would it be better to take them out of 2 squads and get some plasmaguns, or just keep the same, or swap their combi melta's for combi-plasma's?
- The Dreadnought was my major concern before, and still is - I like the idea of him moving forward, providing covering fire and then tying up a unit, but his plasma cannon is frankly useless, and he has only made it into combat once when the enemy came to me. I'm thinking of swapping him for a vindicator for the better armour, the same maneuverability, and of course the awesome demolisher cannon? Thoughts?
- My final small concern is the power weapons in the squads wasting points. I don't find them particularly useful, and doing the maths they will kill 0.75 WS4, T4 opponents per turn. Would Mark of the Wulfen work better, or just drop them entirely and try to fit in another unit?
3 Wolf Guard, 2 with power fist combi-melta
10 Grey Hunters with 2 Plasmaguns, wolf standard
10 Grey Hunters with 2 Plasmaguns, wolf standard
8 grey hunters with meltagun, wolf standard
9 grey hunters with meltagun, wolf standard
5 Long fangs, 4 missile Launchers
Predator with Lascannons
With 136 points remaining, now what would you spend that on...?
Last edited by gilli247; August 17th, 2011 at 16:43.
The problem you'll find with Vindicators is that experienced players WILL make them into priority targets - with a short ranged gun and only moderate armour, it'll be a priority target for most foes, who generaly won't have problems getting at the squishy side armour. You'll likely do better with something else. The obvious solution is Long Fangs, or a Dreadnought kitted for ranged fire support. (2xTLAC, TLAC/AC, etc)
I also have a preference for Wolf Guard over larger units of Grey Hunters - remember that they add +1 leadership on top of their many weapon choices, and the difference between L8 and L9 can be substantial in a tight spot.
Finally, the ONLY advantage that Wolf Lords have over other HQs is their statlines - Rune Priests aren't as tough in close combat, but I've found their their selection of powers more then makes up for that, providing some very useful support against assorted enemy units, on top of the ability to shut down enemy psykers.
Hi, thanks for you reply watchwood!
On the subject of the vindicator, baring in mind it costs just 115 points, I wouldn't be excessively bothered if it received a lot of the opponents anti-tank firepower - in fact I'd be happy for it to do just that! It'd keep the pressure of my other vehicles as its more threatening then a dread, particularly the rhino's! However, your alternatives, eg the AC/TL-AC dread could work well and I think I'll try that out first in a few games first as I don't own a vindicator.
I never considered the higher leadership of the Wolf Guard pack leaders as being an extra reason to take them, but actually its pretty useful considering you need to pass one for the counter attack special rule to work! Thanks!
The Rune priest does offer a lot more in terms of of support and versatility, as you say the ability to disable enemy psykers, his excellent physic abilities (Jaws) could help deal with the big cheesy/overpowered things that I think the list could struggle against. But then he is considerably weaker in combat, and the only place I would be able to fit him in is in the rhino assault, meaning he's vulnerable to giving away a cheap kill point. Is there any way he can get an invun save?
Finally what do you think about the need for power weapons and the mark of the wulfen in the grey hunter squads, are they a waste of points in your experience, which is better? Perhaps limit these upgrades to just one squad or don't take any at all? Or keep them spread around each squad like I have now? In my current experience I don't think the power weapons are making a massive difference.
And I feel the pain with your dread. I love plasma cannons on long fangs. I've wiped out whole squads with them. But I put a plasma cannon on a dread and he starts shooting off into the corner of the board, or off the board, or anywhere but where there are units. No real reason for this, just how I roll. People like the dread as a mobile firing platform, but I've always hated losing the DCCW. The DCCW fills a str10 niche in my army that is otherwise not met. My dread's new favorite pasttime is to insta-gib wolf lords mounted on wolves. When you take away a DCCW, the dread can tie up a unit in cc, but cannot kill the unit (at least, my dreads don't). This is not a problem if your dread is a long-range heavy weapon platform that never gets in close combat. The TLAC/AC loadout is the one I'd pick up if I was going to have your dread escort your rhinos.
I've really had the best luck with my rune priest when he sits in the back with my long fangs and adds his living lightning strikes to the rest of my artillery. I only really move him forward when there is another psycher on the board, and even then I would dance him around the 18" mark to keep him from being assaulted.
So yeah, MotW: worth it. I wouldn't even bother with the power weapon, ever. That's what your wolf guard is for. He has two base attacks, he can get some real use out of it. The only time I consider using a power weapon is on blood claws, but that's only because I feel the extra attacks on the charge is worth it. And I really only do that because they can't take MotW. And I know that it's a waste of points, because it's on blood claws, who are a waste of points to start with.
Hi thanks for the great post!
Firstly, the predator generally works pretty well and performs its required duty of taking out enemy tanks, although it doesn't attract much firepower despite being/and at 165 points hasn't yet paid back its points in the majority of my games. However I love your suggestion of an TL-AC with Lascannon sponsers pred, saving 45 points and, working it out is actually more effective against anything AV 12 or lower, which lets face it is pretty much everything at the moment! I'll defo have a go with it but my concerns would be the armies inability to deal with super heavy vehicles at long range and the predator being slightly less able to take out high point high armour save targets, eg termies/oblitorators.
These concerns would be balanced out somewhat however by the inclusion of a vindicator, I don't think I'll try two of either vehicles mainly because of the extra buying costs involved (currently I have 1 pred and I'd like to expand and vary my force, so I'd either have to buy 2 vindicators and 1 pred or 1 simply just 1 new vindicator )!
Onto the dread and basically I've had enough of him doing nothing with his plasma cannon and not making it into combat. I still think an AC-TLAC would struggle to pay back its points, and would attract hardly any of the opponents AT. The dreads versatility means on occasion it can be game-saver (and it almost did just that when I played against the Tyranids had my tactics been better), but on most occasions he's pretty useless, so I'm gonna drop him for now and see if I miss him (I doubt it).
Moving onto the rune priest I completely agree with what you say about it, you've pretty much reiterated what I thought about him. Maybe I'll keep him back if with the Long fangs if there's no pyskers in the enemy army. I'm not sure what powers to take though, I'm leaning towards living lightning and Jaws, but I quite like murderous hurricane as well, particularly as he'll be going up close. I'm going to try him out anyway with a slightly remodeled list and see what all the fuss is about regardless.
And finally, the slightly pointless debate between power weapons/mark of the wulfen etc that I find interesting for some reason. You've got the some valuable points, and your endorsement of the MoTW seems convincing, so I'll give that a go - particularly as the power sword seems useless in my past few games. Initially when I used both the MoTW and the power weapon I wasn't particularly keen but lets see.
I'll have a play and post up a new list tomorrow, see what you think. Then give it a few games. Finally love the points on blood claws XD!
Here's the list I've produced overnight, still a work in progress I think but I'll give it a few games and see how it fares, comments on selection below, see what you think!!
Wolf Lord with Frost Claw, Storm Shield - 150 points
Rune Priest with chooser of the Slain - 110 points
4 Wolf Guard Pack Leaders, 3 with power fist/combi-melta - 147 points
2 x 8 Grey Hunters with meltagun and Wolf Standard- 135 points
9 Grey Hunters with meltagun and Wolf Standard - 150 points
10 Grey Hunters with 2 plasmaguns - 160 points
4 x Rhino APC - 140 points
Predator Destructor with Lascannon side sponsors - 120 points
6 Long Fangs with 5 missile Launchers - 140 points
Vindicator - 115 points
47 infantry, 6 vehicles. 1502 points.
So the core of the list has remained very much the same, but I've now added in a rune priest for his support role, he can either move forward with the squads if I'm likely to face pyskers, or stay back and add to my firebase with living lightning and Jaws. I've kept in the Wolf Lord but I might drop him, upgrace the 3 Grey Hunter squads with power weapons or MoTW (to make up for the loss of CC ability) and then see what I could spend 105 points on, any idea's???. I've also changed a Grey Hunter squad to a 10 man squad with plasmaguns as a tester unit. I've tweaked heavy support, dropped the pred down to a destructor and added in another missile launcher man to the long fangs.
Finally I've swapped the dread for a vindicator for reasons mentioned earlier, I really think it could give my army something its lacking! Anyone got any thoughts?
I don't understand: why are you taking 4 wolf guard? If you have 4 grey hunter squads, but one is a 10man in a rhino. It looks like you have a lost little wolf guard.
Hi, the final 1 is just a normal 18 man wolf guard attached to the Long Fangs to soak up any wounds - maybe not the most cost effective use of points now I think about it..
I do like the second list more than your original, and I congratulate you on not going with the ubiquitous choice of long fang spam (Emperor knows that I can't bring myself to not use a couple packs of them). There are a couple things that I would change if I were playing it, but it is really just personal choices.
The only reason I personally ever see wanting a Wolf Lord is if I am sticking him on a thunderwolf along with his wolf claw and shield to run with a couple other TWC. If I want a different combat character on foot I tend to go with either a super cheap Wolf Priest to help boost his squad, or a WGBL with claw and shield. In your case you seem to like being able to take the shield so I would suggest downgrading the Lord to a Battle Leader and use the saved points to get some MotW in your melta packs.
Your Wolf Guard are exactly how I would use them.
I personally find 3 troops to be fine at 1.5k but if you are comfortable with 4 then that is fine, its not like Grey Hunters are ever a bad choice. I do however suggest MotW again on the melta packs at the very least. In fact my priority for any Grey Hunter squad goes.. Special Weapons --> MotW --> Wolf Standard.
I kind of think your heavy support choices are a bit disparate. I think that the single long fang squad is ok, but beyond that I would either go with 2 vindicators, or two preds in the setup you already have. Redundancy is usually a good thing.
The only thing that I really miss in this list is a couple of Meltaspeeders. I saw that in at least one game you had trouble with tougher armor. I ran into this problem when I first started buying my space wolf stuff and was going with alot of missile launchers and trying to rely on the meltaguns that my Hunters were toting around. I started running a pair of speeders after ahile though and suddenly AV13-14 became a lot less of a threat for me.
Again though, this is all personal opinion based on my own playstyle. I don't want to turn your list into mine so if this works for you than I say stick with it.
Last edited by Phaeron Typhoon; September 3rd, 2011 at 23:04.
"I am the architect of fate!"
Hi, thanks very much for your reply! What do you think about a few of my queries below? First I'm glad you like the lack of Long fang spam, they are good, but I don't feel they're good enough to take 2 or 3 units of them at this level! Mainly though I like taking more vehicles in my heavy support section that can draw firepower away from my rhino's!
I'm really unsure as to what to do with the Wolf Lord, I can't decide weather I need him for the extra punch in CC? I'm not sure weather downgrading to a WGBL or a Wolf priest and adding MotW to 3 squads would actually add to my armies CC ability overall or not? What do you reckon? I can't even decide weather I want a second HQ at all in the form of a wolf lord, wolf guard battle leader or otherwise, but after a few games yesterday I've decided the rune priest is without doubt my first choice! Here's why:
I played a chaos space marine army and he was brilliant, he should have prevented my opponents dedicated Anti Tank unit from infiltrating (4 melta gun chosen), but I forgot to make use of the chooser of the slain, resulting in a incapacitated vindicator (grr), he should have stopped the lash daemon prince from moving my LF's, but again I forgot he could dispel psychic powers. Despite this he went on to kill a load of chaos marines with his powers and in CC, before hot footing back to my deployment zone to kill a bloodthirster and a chaos lord using his runic force weapon!! He is vulnerable though, in my next game he got mushed pretty sharpish by some wyches, which is why I think I'll play a few more games with the Wolf Lord to ascertain weather or not he'll be ousted from the army, and to get used to using Rune priests (ie remembering their special rules!!).
At the moment I'm using 4 grey hunter squads, and I always seem to want more, they seem to die quite easily despite being space marines! Why do you place such a high priority on the MotW - I've never used it? The Wolf Standard has a big impact on the outcome of close combats, every time I use it in a combat, my opponents are like "do you really get to re-roll all 1's?". It means I kill more, and survive more return attacks too in that decisive combat!
I really like your idea of meltaspeeder's, but I've got a few questions if your willing to answer them? In my list what would you take out to include 1, or is just 1 going to be too 'hit and miss'? Finally how do you generally use them? I've been reading a few SW battle reports on the web, and they're generally deep striked or held in reserve coming on in order to take heavy tanks.
Thanks again for everyone's great help and advice in developing my list!