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  1. #1
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    1500 list first ever

    This is my first list, so tear it up as you see fit.

    Doctrines:
    Iron discipline
    Rough riders
    Ratlings
    Special weapons

    HQ: 368
    Command squad: 100
    Junior officer + Honorifica + Iron Discipline + Master Vox
    Anti-tank Support: 110
    x3 Lascannons
    Anti-tank Support: 95
    x3 Missile launcher
    Special Weapons: 63
    x3 Flamers

    Troops: 492
    Platoon 1: 304
    1 Junior officer
    9 guardsmen, 1 serg. +HB + vox + grenade launcher
    9 guardsmen, 1 serg. +HB + vox + grenade launcher
    9 guardsmen, 1 serg. +HB + vox + grenade launcher
    Platoon 2: 209
    1 Junior officer + Missile launcher
    9 guardsmen, 1 serg. +HB + vox + grenade launcher
    9 guardsmen, 1 serg. +vox

    Elites: 110
    10 Ratlings: 110

    Fast attack: 93
    Rough Riders: 93
    8 Rough Riders + hunting Lances + vox

    Heavy Support: 435
    Basilisk: 125
    Basilisk + inderict fire
    Leman Russ: 155
    Battle Cannon + HB + HB + HB
    Leman Russ: 155
    Battle Cannon + HB + HB + HB

    total: 1498

    Some of my main enemies are space marines, Tau, witch hunters, Chaos Space marines, and possibly some Daemon hunters or nids. I know that I lack some AP2 power, but I'm not sure if Plasma guns in my troops are worth the risk. What are your opinions? I might just take off some HB from my leman russ' and put some lasconnons on, but that would be putting a lot of powerful weapons in one spot. Don't worry about killing this list if you think that I should just start clean, thats an option too.

    Last edited by tojo; October 15th, 2005 at 22:28.

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  3. #2
    Member Commissar zero's Avatar
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    I like the list, my threoy is if you have a ton of shoots, then your going to kill those SM.
    Just make sure that you keep shooting. The only that you might want to change is the ratlings, they're really used to kill big monsters. JUst make sure you have a plan in the beginning.
    Fear me, for I have a Flashlight.

  4. #3
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    I had intended to use the ratlings to kill stuff like snipers, kinda as a counter snipe so that they can't pick at my heavy weapons crews. Plus if you get a shot at the backside of a tank at AV10 then you have a good chance of ringing it down.

    If I were to take out the ratlings, then what do you think that I should put in?

  5. #4
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    I'd say you most definitely need to put plasma guns in your list. Grenade launchers can't penetrate 3+ armor, which is unfortunately more common than otherwise. Overheats really aren't that great a threat to your troops, and the benefits far outweight the risk. Even if it does kill one person, that one guardsman won't exactly cripple your force. But him potentially gunning down 1-2 Space marines a turn could hurt your opponent.

    Other changes I'd make is to scrap your lascannon anti-tank squad as it is. Move the lascannons into your infantry squads, and use the 3 removed heavy bolters to make a Fire Support squad. It shouldn't cost any more points, but it makes your lascannons more survivable, concentrates your anti-infantry fire, and allows you to engage multiple targets with your lascannons. I'd ditch the vox-casters and make sure your junior officers get iron discipline and stay within 12" of your infantry squads. They'll be just about as resolute leadership-wise, and you'll save quite a few points. Finally, I'd also replace the Ratlings (unless you're fighting a slew of C'tan or Greater Demons, they're not worth it) with a Hardened Veteran squad. Sniper rifles aren't a threat to anything except models with poor saves, whereas 3 plasma guns and a missile launcher or lascannon will put the fear of god into most units. Oh, and flamers not only suck on the whole, but they're over-priced for Special Weapons Squads. Best arrangement I've seen is just to give them a demo charge and nothing else, then drop them on the enemy with Drop Troops. With the points saved from the flamers, you can almost afford a second identical unit.

  6. #5
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    but if I do that then all my plasma and lascannon will also be in one spot, kinda dangerous there too! a concentrated assault could easily wipe out the guardsmen, we kinda suck in close combat unless we can overwhelm them.

    I really like the vox caster system, because it gives me freedom to move about as I wish, adds some bonus to my leadership, they get the iron will for the command sqaud, adn on top of that its not much more expensive (5-15 points). I find it to be worth it.

    I think that I might just drop the flamers all together, and with the extra points from that and the ratlings upgrade to plasmas in most of my groups and get either some hardened vets or a demolisher. Although I think that might be too mechanised for the feel of this list. It's supposed to be easily changeable on the battle field, and too many vehicles tends to inhibit that.

    thing about demolition charges is that you practically have to be in close cobat to use them. And if the enemy that you are trying to get at is stationary the they can charge you before you can toss your explosives with much effect. I always liked the idea of the flame throwers laying down sheets of fire, but I should probably trust the more experianced judgement

  7. #6
    Back in action! Lord Yossanrion's Avatar
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    I would listen to Sokhar. The man's a genius. Listen.

    A few points:

    Hardened Veterans rule. Way more the Ratlings. Give the Cameloline and watch tem with a 4+ cover save. With 3x Plasma Guns and Missile Launcher its all good.

    Vox reall is quite unnessessarcy. 12" is longer than you think.

    thing about demolition charges is that you practically have to be in close cobat to use them. And if the enemy that you are trying to get at is stationary the they can charge you before you can toss your explosives with much effect. I always liked the idea of the flame throwers laying down sheets of fire
    Thats why you deep strike them. A Nasty suprise for any MEQ squad. Haha! And it only costs 70 pts!

    Listen to Sokhar....

    ~Yossanrion
    Anzac Clan!
    Final Fantasy!

  8. #7
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    alright, I defer to my elders, cause they probably know a lot more than a n00b like me. The final test is true combat action any way, so we shall see how it works out.

  9. #8
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    (this is addional)
    Drop rats for a group of five storm troopers with two plasmaguns
    Drop the Flamer squad for meltas
    Swap two grenade launchers for plasma guns
    Then do the whole Lascannon/HB switch.
    Swap one tank HB for a lascannon.

    This gives you marine killing power (plasmaguns) and terminator killing power (meltas) and the HBs can serve dual roles. Then the separated lascannons give you a better chance to smoke those Tau tanks.

    I like the rough rider idea, esp for the oppoents you play.
    Three Companies of the 26th Vinancium
    143rd Airborne Badgers (99.9% done)
    159th Corsair Rifles (35% done))
    69th Armored Wall Busters (95% done)

    Total 197 men, 12 tanks, 4 Heavy Artillery Pieces

  10. #9
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    I defer to my elders, cause they probably know a lot more than a n00b like me.
    I wouldn't call you a "n00b" since in my prior experience that usually has negative connotations. A new person is just a new person, a "n00b" is a dumb and ignorant new person who willfully chooses not to heed the advice of the more experienced. Posting here for feedback proves you're not ignorant, even if you choose not to go with all the suggestions you receive. I'm going to respond to your counterpoints just because I didn't elaborate when critiquing your list as much as I usually do, but what you do with it is up to you, k? Just as long as you don't outright blow me off or come back saying how you don't intend to change anything about the list, I'm alright with not having all of my advice followed. I'm just as prone to mistakes as anyone else, and I've still got plenty to learn.

    but if I do that then all my plasma and lascannon will also be in one spot, kinda dangerous there too! a concentrated assault could easily wipe out the guardsmen, we kinda suck in close combat unless we can overwhelm them.
    Not sure if you were referring to just the Hardened Veterans and/or your las/plas infantry squads as well. If the former, then you're correct that having this unit wiped out would take a lot of firepower with it. However a Hardened Veteran squad is no more vulnerable than any other squad of Guardsmen, and they're all the more dangerous for their weaponry and/ ballistic skill of 4. As long as you don't depened on the Veterans to win the game for you, just think of them as a much-improved Infantry squad and use them accordingly. Yossanrion's suggestion to give them Cameoline and infiltrate them forward is pure gold, as you'll have better range and LOS on your opponent and then the unit becomes harder to root out. Just don't strand it away from other supporting units.

    I really like the vox caster system, because it gives me freedom to move about as I wish, adds some bonus to my leadership, they get the iron will for the command sqaud, adn on top of that its not much more expensive (5-15 points). I find it to be worth it.
    As Yossanrion also pointed out, 12" radius is a lot more than you'd think. That radius creates a bubble of a little over 3 square feet all around officer where everyone can use his leadership. If you want more redundancy (or a larger "bubble") then pay the price for a normal Heroic Senior Officer, then give one of your Junior Officers leading a platoon the Honorifica Imperialis. Suddenly you've got two 3 foot diameter bubbles where everyone gets leadership 9. With a bubble or two, you no longer require an extensive vox-network because most guard units don't move around alot, and ALL guard units benefit from having supporting units nearby. So you give the officer's at the core of your bubble or two a vox-caster, and you give a vox to a unit like an Armored Fist or maybe a Hardened Veteran, who might conceivably be outside that bubble. Saves quite a few points. Plus the bubble allows your units to benefit from Iron Discipline, whereas vox-casters do not (ID doesn't transmit over vox). And the master-vox alone costs 25 points, plus 5 points for each other unit with a vox, so the vox-system is much more expensive than you stated.

    I think that I might just drop the flamers all together, and with the extra points from that and the ratlings upgrade to plasmas in most of my groups and get either some hardened vets or a demolisher. Although I think that might be too mechanised for the feel of this list. It's supposed to be easily changeable on the battle field, and too many vehicles tends to inhibit that.
    Dropping the flamers isn't a bad idea at all. They've got virtually no range, and they're no better than bolters for strength or AP. We've got much better special weapon options. I'm assuming from the Demolisher comment that you're considering upgrading one of the standard Russes. I know some people love the Bassie, Russ, Demolisher configuration, but its not a personal favorite of mine since it has such short range and its mobile firepower sucks (either you fire the d-cannon or something like a heavy bolter and a plasma cannon, at best. That bites for an "infantry support tank"). I like the standard Leman Russ, and I'd definitely consider it more versatile than the Demolisher. But I'm biased, I'd prefer 2-3 Russes in all my armies (in case of two, that's probably because a Bassie was included instead) And the main strength of the Guard is its wide (sorta, they cut out several of our vehicles in the latest codex) assortment of armored fighting vehicles. So you can never be too mechanized. And before deciding that the vehicles aren't interchangable or adaptable enough, examine your tactics. Maybe try using vehicles in a different way. If you're used to firing lines and bashing oncoming enemies over the head with ordance blasts, try an armored thrust along one of your opponent's flanks while your gun lines rip into him. Not a fun day for your opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Yossanrion
    Haha! And it only costs 70 pts!
    Actually only 45 for a basic Special Weapons squad with demo charge. Even better, huh?

  11. #10
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    I think that it might be better to switch out to all plasma and then add another heavy bolter squad to make up for the lost grenade launchers. Problem is this doesn't leave any points for the demolition. I don't want the storm troopers, just because I have enough anti-tank right now, and I don't think that more AP 5 shots are going to do much good. Heavy bolters already can do that and more.

    One thing that really is bugging me is whether the side sponson heavy bolters are worth it or not. now that you can move and shoot your ordanance, is there any reason to take more firepower in light (relatively) arms?

    And I don't want to take meltas, just because the plasma will work just as well and then I don't have to get within charge range of my enemy. Terminators are nasty, but I can always divert some fire onto them from my hardened vets with plasmas to help bring them down. (although this is just hte kind of relying on my vets that you said could get me in trouble)

    I'll post a second list later today, and we can continue from there, I think I need to see how many points of revision I have left over! I hav also decided to try something different in my heavy support, tell me the yay of nay.
    Last edited by tojo; October 16th, 2005 at 18:58.

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