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This army only just missed out on 3rd place at Red Harvest II (a New Zealand tournament held in Geraldine in May this year), which was a lot better than I expected to do. The list was built in an effort to create a 1500 point GK-only list with the models I had available...I ended up using all but about two, so there wasn't much choice in how to structure the army
Grand Master with master-crafted NFW, Storm Shield, Incense, Grimoire, Scourging (210)
Retinue of 5x GK Terminators, 1 with TH/SS, 1 with Psycannon (255)
Justicar with Frag Grenades, 9x GK's, 1 Incinerator, 1 Psycannon (311) x2
Heavy Support: 413pts
Dreadnought with TLLC, ML, Extra Armour (145)
Land Raider Crusader with Smoke Launchers (268pts)
Last edited by Defensor Fidei; November 6th, 2005 at 02:46.
Well, if you're looking for advice ...
1) I'm not sold on the storm shield for the GM. The save is only in CC. With his high WS, S, attacks, and I he should kill anything he gets into CC with before it can strike back unless it's another character. Against another character who goes at I5 or higher, it can help, but does it occur often enough? That is something only you can say. If it doesn't, you're probably better off either giving the GM a psycannon (replacing scourging and SS) or giving him a second CCW (power weapon, Daemonhammer, chainfist, etc) for an additional attack.
2) Your GK squads are a good size. However, in general it is usally best not to mix weapons in a squad. Psycannons are best when used from a distance, while incinerators need to get close to work. Thus, units with incinerators will need to advance, while units with psycannons are "wasting" shots if they are within 36" and not firing. Personally, I much prefer psycannons. It's up to you and your play style and tactics. It also might be useful to try to find the points to throw some meltabombs on your justicars.
Otherwise, it is a pretty solid pure-GK list
Reminds me of my list, honestly, I'm not surprised the list did good in that tournament, the only change I would consider would be giving the dread an assault cannon and DCCW, but that's only if you think it would do better than ranged. It really is your call there but other than that it looks good .
P.S. - What does your sig say?
5th E Sand(Grey) Knights: 11-3 (retired) 5th E Eldar: 37-4 (retired) 5th E Wolves 5-0
I would replace the Storm Shield with an Icon of the Just, this gives you a permanent save whereas the SS only gives it to you in cc. If you need points, take them from scourging, he would have the storm bolter, so it's not as bg of a deal. I find that an incinerator in a termie squad is actually more effective than a psycannon. With a termie squad, you either keep advancing or DS and are immediately engaged in cc.Grand Master with master-crafted NFW, Storm Shield, Incense, Grimoire, Scourging (210)
Retinue of 5x GK Terminators, 1 with TH/SS, 1 with Psycannon (255)I'm not sure about the different special weapons for reasons stated by dvangJusticar with Frag Grenades, 9x GK's, 1 Incinerator, 1 Psycannon (311) x2
1500 years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the Universe
500 years ago everybody knew the world was flat
5 minutes ago you knew humans were alone on the planet
Imagine what you'll know tomorrow
Defintely have your GM with the psycannon at 5BS, he's the best for it. I'd also say get rid of scourging. The rest seems player based, I'd make more changes but just because I have a different playing style.
How did the Crusader work for you, I've been wavering in converting a landraider into one? Help convince me one way or the other.
I'm not particularly seeking advice on this list...I devised it months ago under special circumstances and posted it here for interest. My lists have evolved considerably since then, now that I have enough DH models to actually choose what to take or not take :yes:
That aside, thanks for your comments...and here's some discussion of those.
Phoenix Guard 1988:
I found the GM's SS was fine in place of the IJ - when he's being shot at he's with his retinue (majority 5+), so combat is really the only place the better save works. More importantly it was a cool conversion.
The psycannon was a positive boon for the retinue...in one game it took out a Dark Eldar Archon from across the table as well as knocking down a Raider...Psycannons + Termie armour is a great combo (permanent full range + no loss of NFW).
The different special weapons were because I only owned 2 psycannons and 2 incinerators at the time...granted I could have given each squad two of the same weapon instead of one of each.
With Dreanoughts I've personally found it best to 'min-max' them...make them CC or Ranged, but not half-'n-half, so either TLLC/ML or DCCW/AC like you suggest. While I really like the idea of my GK dread in CC (especially with the conversion I did to his DCCW), there are two problems: 1. You remove the primary source of anti-armour firepower. 2. Getting the dread across the table and into close combat. Hence I generally stick to the ranged config for my dread.
As for my sig...it can be translated in a variety of ways, but my favourite is "Drop down ye heavens from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness." - my deep-striking Grey Knight righteousness, that is
I found the SS useful not only against characters but also against the dreaded 'hidden powerfist' and such devices. The IJ is better, but more expensive and didn't give me the same license to do a conversion I wanted to try (I might post pics at some point). I'm currently converting up a GM model for higher point games that will probably have a Psycannon, but I still find myself tempted to have him dual-wielding swords or having a CFist with which to carve up armour :yes: My main problem is avoiding the temptation to over-tool him into a monster point-sink when I should be putting as many troops on the table as possible (e.g. GM w/ PsyCn, IJ, Incense, Grimoire, master-craft, holocaust = 255! :wacko: ...almost a full squad's worth of GK's).
I agree with you on the special weapons distribution, and I too generally prefer psycannons (though they are awfully expensive on troops), but at the time, with only 2 squads in the army, I found the flexibility was useful at the tournament.
Crusader is an awesome machine...not quite as good since it lost the ability to always fire it's hurricane bolters, but still devastating. It gives a DH army mobility and mobile cover while chewing up infantry once in range, particularly light infantry (e.g. Guard). Get it within 12" and it puts out 12 bolter and 4 Assault Cannon shots, all of which are twin linked, and you can fire the multi melta for a 17th shot. It's the ultimate delivery mechanism for a squad of GK's (or GKT's for real punch), since you can assault out of it, and even count as having frag grenades on the turn you do. For a price comparable to a squad of GK's, I reckon it's a good investment.
I've always been careful about using a LRC, especially as I could nearly have a unit of ten gk's for it's price. I have only used it a couple of times but it worked pretty well, it shrugged of missiles like nothing else.Originally Posted by Defensor Fidei
What do you think of the cost vs. effiency of a LRC in a 1500 point game?
It's a bit of a toss-up at 1500...I know many people who'd consider it cheesy, and I'm a bit squeamish about it myself. From a purely tactical perspective, like any unit choice, it depends on the composition of the rest of the army. As I noted, this list was pretty hard.Originally Posted by dr_nick22
The LRC is roughly the same cost of a GK squad of 7-9 models (depending on special weapons). It puts out fewer shots than the squad, but within rapid-fire range there's only a couple less. The difference is made up by all but one of the shots from the LRC being twin-linked, as well as the fact the LRC has armour-penetrating ability the squad can never get (AC, MM). You could always field a couple of Dreadnoughts instead of an LRC or GK squad, but combat dreads struggle to make it to enemy lines, and shooty dreads are expensive (30-40 points more than the LRC if you take 2) and will still die pretty easily.
The LRC is more than just guns however...it's a transport, and a good one. Against most enemies you want your GK's to be in CC ASAP, so if you find DSing too imprecise/chancy (as I often do) this is the best option for getting them there (or for getting a squad with a teleport homer there, so everything else can DS with precision). It also acts as convenient mobile cover for anything following in its protective shadow (like another squad, or perhaps a Dreadnought).
The LRC is also hard to kill, but then it can go down in a single shot (melta-weapons and rail guns being the primary culprits). Compare this with a squad of GK's: they're easier to kill individually, but won't often vanish in one hit (or at least they shouldn't). It's up to the individual to decide which is better.
Overall, the LRC adds needed flexibility to the army since it can taxi, dish out severe punishment, and hold objectives on its own (and in a foot-slogging GK army it's always good to have something that can make a 12" dash). Plus there's the psychological factor...people are scared of 'em. It still depends on army composition and personal taste, and the size of the army. I couldn't stomach taking it at less than 1500pts, and only feel truly comfortable taking it in games over 1500.
Opinion provided...Ramble complete...Disengaging Hyperverbosity Generator...
tbh im pretty amazed that list did so well.. what were the other armys you played vs in the tournament
fortune favors the brave