[2000] Armored Company, total newb - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Member BannedInFrance's Avatar
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    [2000] Armored Company, total newb

    This is the first army list I've ever drawn up, so I'm a complete newb at this sort of stuff. Just letting you know in case any of my stuff seems totally worthless. At current the list stands at 2069 points, so i need to shave 69 points off the list. I have a few ideas of how to do this, but I don't know what would be most effective.

    This is the rough draft of my Armored Company list:

    Doctrines Used:
    -Ace Gunners
    -Anti-Tank Rounds
    -Side Skirts
    -Evasive Driving
    -Ace Sponson Gunners

    The Army:

    HQ-
    1x Leman Russ Exterminator
    Hull Mounted Heavy Bolter
    Sponson Mounted Heavy Bolters
    Improved Comms
    Extra Armor
    Track Guards
    Rough Terrain Modification
    Side Skirts
    Evasive Driving
    Ace Sponson Gunners
    Command Tank
    Total = 290pts (yikes)

    Ok, so my command tank is an exterminator for 2 reasons; withering anti-infantry firepower with a BS of 4, and to hopefully take my command tank (and my tank with improved comms) down a notch on my opponent's priority target list. The extra gear is slanted towards keeping the tank mobile and firing. With all that moving around and engaging infantry, I'm bound to get close enough to my opponent to be hit with an assault or two, Evasive Driving and Ace Sponson Gunners reflect this and side skirts is due to my need to sink another 15 points into this hole after already using my two cheapest doctrines thanks to the Aces High rule. (That and eventually they're going to shoot at me.)

    Elites-

    1xLeman Russ Vanquisher
    Hull Mounted Lascannon
    Pintle Mounted Storm Bolter (Co-Axial)
    Extra Armor
    Auto Launchers
    Ace Gunners
    Side Skirts
    Ace Tank
    Total = 303pts (Yikes)

    Hrmph, I'm prettyy happy with this tank, but I can see that it's a giant points sink. I could shave off 20 points by ditching Ace Gunners and turning it into a regular Russ with Anti-Tank Rounds, but I'm willing to waste 20pts on fluff to have a Vanquisher in my army with a BS of 4. Also, this thing is a bullet magnet, plain and simple. As soon as my opponent gets a shooting phase he's going to light this sucker up like a christmas tree. With any luck, he'll be so hell bent on destroying it that he'll forget about my real anti-tank tanks and let them do their job. Armored Skirts because of Aces High and I'd like my Vanquisher to have some staying power, and they'll look really cool.

    10 x Stormtroopers
    2x Flamer
    Chimera
    Multi Laser
    Heavy Bolter
    Rough Terrain Modification
    Side Skirts
    Total = 222 pts

    Stormtroopers because I need infantry, and I'd like to have something with a little more sticking power than an armored fist squad. The Troopers aren't going to be facing anything they'll need plasma or melta weapons for, so they don't get them. The chimera gets a rough terrain modification so I can put them wherever I need them, and side skirts because I don't like having my transports vulnerable to bolter fire.

    Troops-

    2x Leman Russ
    2x Hull Lascannon
    2x Anti-Tank Rounds
    Total = 350pts

    My anti-tank Platoon, meant to act inconspicuous and pick off enemy armor at will. And be
    relatively cheap (as cheap as a 175pt tank can be, anyway).

    1x Leman Russ
    3x Heavy Bolters
    Ace Gunners
    Total = 180 pts

    1x Leman Russ Exterminator
    3x Heavy Bolters
    Extra Armor
    Track Guards
    Ace Sponson Gunners
    Evasive Driving
    Total = 175pts

    My second Platoon is anti-infantry. I could have made them both Exterminators, but I
    think the extra battle cannon will come in handy. Again, be cheap and kill lots of
    models.

    Fast Attack -

    2x Armored Fist Squads
    2x Flamers
    2x Chimera
    2x Multi laser
    2x Heavy Bolter
    2x Rough Terrain Modification
    2x Side Sponsons
    Total = 334pts

    I will need infantry at some point, and these armored fist squads will give it to me.
    Gear on the Chimeras for the same reasons as the stormtrooper Chimera.

    Heavy Support -

    1x Leman Russ Demolisher
    Hull Heavy Bolter
    Sponson Plasma Cannons
    Rough Terrain Modification
    Track Guards
    Ace Gunners
    Ace Sponson Gunners
    Total = 215pts

    To put it bluntly, I can't pass up a S10AP2 blast template, or two S7AP2 blast templates for that matter. The extra gear is to keep the tank mobile and give it maneuverability options to bring its main gun to bear. Ace gunners because the demolisher cannon is useless if it doesnt hit anything, and sponson gunners because I am going to be getting close to enemy troops with this guy.

    List Total = 2069pts



    So theres the list. As for dropping points, I have a few ideas. I could just scrap either the stormtroopers or the Demolisher and add some gear to the other tanks and a Hellhound in the Fast Attack section. Or I could cut away some doctrine and gear points, as Ace Sponson Gunners and Evasive Driving might be a little weak, although they are cheap, and some of the gear on my tanks might be overkill. All the wargear is like that though, nice to have but not neccessary. And I could drop the Vanquisher for a regular Russ with anti-tank shells, and save some points, meaning fewer point cuts down the list. Of these options, I'm not sure which one of them is the most tactically sound, or if any of them are. So please, take my list apart, dissect it, and tell me what needs to be changed.

    Last edited by BannedInFrance; November 29th, 2005 at 06:06.

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  3. #2
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    For a first list ever, this ain't bad. Its great to see someone writing the idea behind their units to clue us into that commander's thought patterns and style. Makes our job of critiquing much easier.

    Now a word of warning, first: Forum policy says you can't post point costs for individual items, just an overall cost for a unit. So if you could edit your list to only have the cost per tank and squad listed, you'll do okay. Now lets take a look at your list.

    The Exterminator--You hit a home run here, i couldn't recommend a better vehicle for your commander. A BS 4 Exterminator is simply sickening with the amount of anti-infantry firepower it can put out. One thing you should definitely add though is a pintle heavy stubber. Its really worthwhile on a vehicle like this, and the BS 4 will make the most out of every shot. Best 12 points you can spend for this vehicle. Things you can lose here to save points would definitely be the Track Guards and the Rough Terrain Modification. RTM isn't likely to come in handy that often, and track guards have the downside of eliminating the one damage result that doesn't prevent you from shooting (immobilized) and turning it into a Crew Stunned result instead (still can't move next turn AND can't shoot). That's not worth it at ten points, and certainly not when its only got a 50/50 shot of working. Personally I think the side skirts could also be omitted simply because this vehicle won't be a priority for enemy shooting. Since your units don't have leadership values, eliminating your HQ unit is really just a psychological gain, and this is a non-ordance (and thus less threatening) tank. Likewise I think you'll manage without the Evasive Driving and Ace Sponson Gunner doctrines. If you manage your force well then you won't have too much to fear from enemy assaulters, best to save the points and try to keep all your tanks as cheap as possible.

    The Vanquisher--I agree that this tank is very expensive and a bullet-magnet, but that might not be a bad thing. You can go with a standard Leman Russ with tank rounds if you like, but I wouldn't necessarily consider this a bad investment unless you need the points elsewhere. Sometimes its nice to give your opponent something to freak out over. Once again I think the doctrines are essentially a waste of points, but not much else to say about this particular tank. Alternately if you keep your standard Russes as your anti-tank sources, consider making your tank ace another Exterminator to get all the anti-infantry firepower you need and cut down on costs.

    The Storm Troopers & Chimera--This unit's pretty good as well. I'd add a heavy stubber to the Chimera to give the squad a little extra punch. I don't think the side skirts are really necessary since you've got half a dozen battle tanks for your opponent to shoot at before they get down to the Chimera. And for a flexible, all-comers list, I'd give the Stormies something besides flamers. There really aren't any enemies out there that a flamer would be effective against that you want to be that close to. If you want anti-infantry, I'd go with plasma. IF you're thinking you might need more anti-tank, go with meltaguns. I'd lean towards the plasma guns.

    The Leman Platoons--I like these squads, I think its a great idea to give your basic tanks good anti-tank capabilities as well as being infantry maulers. My suggestion would be to ditch the hull lascannons. They're expensive and not very good with a BS 3. Stick to the anti-tank rounds to do the tank sniping. Then use the points saved from moving down to a hull heavy bolter to purchase sponson heavy bolters for each tank. For the 15 points previously used on a single lascannon, you instead of 3 heavy bolters. Ditch the Ace Gunners on your 3rd Leman Russ. Then I'd switch the Leman Russ Exterminator for your tank ace (so you have your Commander and Tank Ace in Leman Russ Exterminators, and 4 standard Leman Russes with anti-tank rounds for your Troops). You'll have enormous capability to handle enemy infantry, great mobile firepower, and your anti-tank power will be spread over several vehicles that are hard to eliminate. A real headache for your opponent.

    The Armored Fist Squads--Like I explained above, I don't like flamers. And I'd trade one of these squads for another mounted Storm Trooper squad, so you can get an extra special weapon and better troops than standard guardsmen. Same as above about rough terrain mod and all the rest. And just a note, Chimeras don't have side sponsons.

    The Demolisher--Just ditch the extra upgrades and doctrines and this is great. Its a perfect spearhead for your armored assault, something to grab your opponent's attention. Plus all that AP 2 weaponry is a definite asset to this list.
    "I would listen to Sokhar. The man's a genius. Listen."
    ~Lord Yossanrion
    "Thanks, Sokhar. There was some legitimately good advice in between the low-grade profanity, blaspheming and veiled insults."
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  4. #3
    Member BannedInFrance's Avatar
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    Looking over the list, I found that I'd made a pretty major error. Both the Vanquisher and the exterminator require me to take doctrines, so I've scrapped Ace Sponson Gunners and Evasive Driving (they will be missed). Side Skirts is gone too, as they weren't going to do much good; Chimeras which will be ignored by heavy firepower and the Vanquisher will be hanging around the rear and showing its front armor to opponents.Also, I need a +25pt doctrine to match Ace Gunners for the Aces High rule, and giving Ace Gunners to an Exterminator is a waste (no ordinance scatter to reroll, and rerolling 1's to hit isn't worth 25pts without plasma weaps). So I figure I'll tack either Machine God's Blessing or Reinforced Ceramite Armor onto the command tank to meet that, depending on how many points I have left over.

    As for the flamers, I'm not a fan of flamers either to be honest. The reason for putting them in the squads was to keep costs as low as possible, but with all the cost cutting I should be able to upgrade them to grenade launchers, or Plasma Guns if I can.

    I considered bumping the second executioner to the ace tank slot, but I'd rather have one of my anti-tank tanks with a BS of 4, esp since the Exterminator gets 11 shots and can re-roll the 2 S7 shots.

    I'm on the fence about giving my LR's with lascannons 3 heavy bolters instead. On the one hand, I'd like to have a fallback if they loose their main guns, but on the other hand I already have 4 72" range melta guns and the Demolisher. Points cost stays the same either way.

    Now for the cost cutting, all the following have been purged from the army list: Side Skirts, Evasive Driving, Ace Sponson Gunners, Rough Terrain Mods, and Track Guards. With this, I've brought the cost down to 1909.

    So here's what I'm doing with that extra 91points:
    Heavy Stubbers for two of my Chimeras, the third gets a storm bolter and searchlight because I was 1pt over 2000 when I crunched my new numbers. Scrapping one of my armored fist squads and replacing it with a second stormtrooper squad, because stormtroopers are rad. Each stormtrooper squad gets a plasma gun and a grenade launcher, and the armored fist squad keeps the flamethrower (because it's cheap, and they're cheap).

    Army List now reads as this:

    (all tanks have 15pts of hull/sponson weapons)
    Command Exterminator, Extra Armor, Machine God Blessing - 265pts
    Ace Vanquisher, Extra Armor, Auto Launchers, Ace Gunners - 288pts
    Stormtroopers, Plasma Guns, Chimera w/Heavy Stubber - 217pts
    Stormtroopers, Grenade Launchers, Chimera w/Heavy Stubber - 213pts
    3x Leman Russ, Anti Tank Rounds - 525 Pts
    Leman Russ Exterminator, Extra Armor - 140pts
    Armored Fist, Flamer, Chimera w/Storm Bolter, Seachlight - 162pts
    Leman Russ Demolisher, Plasma Cannons, Ace Gunners - 190pts

    Total = 2000pts even

    Doctrines:
    Leman Russ Exterminator
    Leman Russ Vanquisher
    Ace Gunners
    Anti-Tank Rounds
    Machine God's Blessing

    I'm definately happy with the list as it stands (and can't wait to paint all those nifty tanks and stormtroopers), but further criticism is welcome.

  5. #4
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    Also, I need a +25pt doctrine to match Ace Gunners for the Aces High rule, and giving Ace Gunners to an Exterminator is a waste (no ordinance scatter to reroll, and rerolling 1's to hit isn't worth 25pts without plasma weaps). So I figure I'll tack either Machine God's Blessing or Reinforced Ceramite Armor onto the command tank to meet that, depending on how many points I have left over.
    Actually, I have to disagree here. Machine God's Blessing and Ceramite Armor are fairly limited upgrades. If you don't face Eldar, MGB is wasted. If you face an army that doesn't use Melta weapons then RCA is equally useless. However, Ace Gunners can actually be worthwhile in my opinion SO LONG AS its placed on the Exterminator. When you roll 14 dice each turn for the Exterminator's attacks, statistically you'll roll two "1"s per turn. The chance to turn 60% of these misses over the course of the game is worth 25 points in my opinion. Doctrines like Sharp Shooters are only useful in Guard infantry armies when placed on units that get a large volume of useful shots (ie not lasguns). The Exterminator is useful, and no tank in the game will get a higher volume of shots, so its points well spent. I know it sounds crazy since I'm normally one to advocate not taking unnecessary upgrades, and I despize Sharp Shooters, but on BS 4 Exterminators Ace Gunners becomes worthwhile. The circumstance when it wouldn't be is single or low-shot weapons where you can't make the most of it.

    As for the flamers, I'm not a fan of flamers either to be honest. The reason for putting them in the squads was to keep costs as low as possible, but with all the cost cutting I should be able to upgrade them to grenade launchers, or Plasma Guns if I can.
    I'd make sure to find the extra four points per squad to upgrade from grenade launchers to plasma guns. Plasma can rapid fire within 12" and you're not going to disembark if the opponent is further away than that. And GL's can't reliably hurt MEQs, whereas plasma is the death of MEQ's anywhere.

    I considered bumping the second executioner to the ace tank slot, but I'd rather have one of my anti-tank tanks with a BS of 4, esp since the Exterminator gets 11 shots and can re-roll the 2 S7 shots.
    Once again, I'd give the Exterminator the nod over a Vanquisher. Why? Because a Vanquisher or tank with anti-tank rounds only gets to use that BS of 4 once per turn. And on the occasions when the non-Exterminator uses its ordance weapon, that BS is wasted. The Exterminator will make use of that improved accuracy with every single shot (14!) each turn, no waste. Ever. With 3-4 normal Lemans equipped with anti-tank rounds you're still getting two statistical hits per turn. Each one of those hits averages a 15 for armor penetration value meaning odds are you'll penetrate anything even a Leman Russ, and you blow it apart with an ordance hit (and the more destructive ordance hit table), so most likely you're not going to need too many hits in the first place. Two or three turns of shooting at the absolute most should wipe out every significant vehicle in your opponent's list. After that its probably back to the battle cannon, and the BS of 4 counts for nada.

    I'm on the fence about giving my LR's with lascannons 3 heavy bolters instead. On the one hand, I'd like to have a fallback if they loose their main guns, but on the other hand I already have 4 72" range melta guns and the Demolisher. Points cost stays the same either way.
    The problem with the lascannon is that Lemans are oriented towards wiping out enemy infantry. That's their purpose. And with a BS of 3 you normally want to go with more shots over a single shot. So 9 heavy bolter shots over 1 lascannon shot per turn is a great deal. I have no idea why GW was dumb enough to only include hull lascannons in the tank kit, but there's no real compelling reason to give lascannons to a standard Russ.

    Now for the cost cutting, all the following have been purged from the army list: Side Skirts, Evasive Driving, Ace Sponson Gunners, Rough Terrain Mods, and Track Guards. With this, I've brought the cost down to 1909.
    That's great, I agree with with all the changes here. Unnecessary upgrades that just cost you points.

    So here's what I'm doing with that extra 91points:
    Heavy Stubbers for two of my Chimeras, the third gets a storm bolter and searchlight because I was 1pt over 2000 when I crunched my new numbers. Scrapping one of my armored fist squads and replacing it with a second stormtrooper squad, because stormtroopers are rad. Each stormtrooper squad gets a plasma gun and a grenade launcher, and the armored fist squad keeps the flamethrower (because it's cheap, and they're cheap).
    Pretty much all this looks good. The only change I'd make is to have one Stormy squad with 2 plasmas, and one squad with 2 grenade launchers. I dislike grenade launchers and would upgrade them to plasma across the board. Barring that though, maintain unity of purpose and equipment. If you need to fry MEQs, do it by only using one squad, not requiring that the other squad disembark and fire just to get the benefit of the second plasma gun.


    You're getting there. Still some fine-tuning to go, but the list is looking progressively better. Hope this has been helpful, I've enjoyed the critiquing as its caused me to think more about the Armored Company and develop what I think are sound tactics that I might use in the future.
    "I would listen to Sokhar. The man's a genius. Listen."
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    "Thanks, Sokhar. There was some legitimately good advice in between the low-grade profanity, blaspheming and veiled insults."
    ~Quick
    "Well thought, intelligently put, with a hint of sarcastic bastard!"
    ~Diggum's Hammer

  6. #5
    Treadhead with a Chainaxe Kaiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sokhar
    Actually, I have to disagree here. Machine God's Blessing and Ceramite Armor are fairly limited upgrades. If you don't face Eldar, MGB is wasted. If you face an army that doesn't use Melta weapons then RCA is equally useless. However, Ace Gunners can actually be worthwhile in my opinion SO LONG AS its placed on the Exterminator. When you roll 14 dice each turn for the Exterminator's attacks, statistically you'll roll two "1"s per turn. The chance to turn 60% of these misses over the course of the game is worth 25 points in my opinion. Doctrines like Sharp Shooters are only useful in Guard infantry armies when placed on units that get a large volume of useful shots (ie not lasguns). The Exterminator is useful, and no tank in the game will get a higher volume of shots, so its points well spent. I know it sounds crazy since I'm normally one to advocate not taking unnecessary upgrades, and I despize Sharp Shooters, but on BS 4 Exterminators Ace Gunners becomes worthwhile. The circumstance when it wouldn't be is single or low-shot weapons where you can't make the most of it.
    I agree about Machine God's Blessing and Ceramite armour, they're a waste against any army that doesn't use the weapons they're designed to counter. Though I'm not sure about Ace Gunners on the exterminator because the other advantage of Ace Gunners is that it lets you reroll your scatterdie if you'd like, something that might be far more devastating on a tank that uses an ordnance weapon. Though I must admit, that a BS4 tank with 14 shots and sharpshooters is just... well... awesome. Not sure which would be the more worthwile. Certainly there will be those moments where the game hangs on a good scatterroll and the Exterminator's killing power is real nasty already. Remember that the twin-linked autocannon won't benefit from sharpshooters since you may only reroll dice once and that reroll is handled by the twin-linked part.

    Also, I do belive that both the Land Raider Crusader(17 shots?) and the Monolith(number of units within 12" * d6 shots) can both fire more shots than the Leman Russ Exterminator. I'm an ass and have to point these things out. :shifty:

    As for the rest of the list, Sokhar pretty much nailed what I wanted to say. (Great minds think alike eh? :tongue
    Last edited by Kaiser; December 2nd, 2005 at 08:29.
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  7. #6
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    I agree that its a shame that the Exterminator can't make use of the re-rolling of the scatter die. If it had something to make use of that as well it would be damn near perfect, but sadly its not the case. Still, re-rolling on average of two shots per turn from this unit (and heavy weaponry shots at that) seems worthwhile to me. If nothing else, the Aces High rule requires that you spend at least 20 points on doctrines for your Commander and Tank Aces because the normal Russes have anti-tank rounds. So what better doctrine is there to meet the requirement? And yes I remember that the autocannon won't benefit from Ace Gunners, but the 9 heavy bolter shots and 3 heavy stubber shots (should total two "1"s rolled per turn from those, statistically) should.

    Its okay Kaiser, I know you're just pointing out flaws in my arguements to battle against the revelation that you're only playing back-up dancer to my statements of late. :tongue: I guess a more accurate statement would be "No other tank in the game can deliver so many shots at range, using conventional weaponry." The Crusader can pump out three more shots, but those bolters can only fire so much within 12". And the Monolith has a ridiculously over-powered main weapon that doesn't have a set shooting rate or template, so its kind of an exception. Or at least I say so, so that you won't prove me wrong. :yes:
    "I would listen to Sokhar. The man's a genius. Listen."
    ~Lord Yossanrion
    "Thanks, Sokhar. There was some legitimately good advice in between the low-grade profanity, blaspheming and veiled insults."
    ~Quick
    "Well thought, intelligently put, with a hint of sarcastic bastard!"
    ~Diggum's Hammer

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