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Thread: Diy 1850

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    Diy 1850

    I plan to get a new army for the 2006 year and after looking around it appears that a SM army will be the easiest for me with limited time and funds. I have been tooling around with the list’s and came up with the most versatile army I can and critique is welcome.

    See but don't be seen
    Cleanse and purify
    We stand alone
    Eye to eye


    HQ

    This will be the main strike force / backbone if you will. Used to take objectives and deliver hard hits to the foe. A strong command unit is a must for me

    Master
    Frag
    Bolt pistol
    Power weapon

    Command Squad x 9
    Frag
    Champion
    Rhino
    Extra Armour
    Smoke

    Elite

    Hard points designed to be able to counter both troops and heavy vehicles, that’s right heavy.. I have done the calculations and an Assault Cannon has a greater chance of penetrating 14 AR than does a Las-Cannon but with lower AR it leans to the Las. The dread is there more for the fact I have 3 of them painted already and plan to use one. I will never run a SM army without such an awesome model.

    Terminator x 5
    Assault Cannon x 2

    Dreadnought
    Extra Armour

    Troop

    Troops will augment the rest of the force, they will be by far the most flexible portion but designed for specific tasks.

    #1 Armour hunting
    #2 Misdirection
    #3 Objectives

    The two mobile TAC squads will hunt armour and put up hard points in the chokes. The foot sloggers will infiltrate to help secure important terrain for strategic reasons as well as pop light armour and heavy infantry.


    TAC squad x 8
    Melta x 2
    Rhino
    Extra Armour
    Smoke

    Tac squad x 8
    Melta x 2
    Rhino
    Extra Armour
    Smoke

    Tac squad x 10
    Term Honours
    Plasma x 2
    Infiltrate

    Fast Attack

    Single minded, they are here to help me gain advantage in the outset of game. The have infiltrate so I can deploy near strategic points and counter any move made for them before HQ or Troop can take advantage. I have tooled them minimal so they can just be a threat, they are not for taking objectives or smashing the enemy line.

    Assault Squad x 8
    Infiltrate
    Term Honours
    Power weapon

    Heavy

    Not putting to many eggs in one basket, the Dev’s are just troop killers. Each has 2 heavy bolters and 3 bolters to splatter hits into enemy troops. I don’t want overkill on this and wanted to direct fire into multiple groups incase I can force test’s after 1 volley (I like to force tests). The Predator is for back up on the enemy special characters and armour. I love the model and don’t need anymore anti troops as far as I can tell but he may be on the chopping block.

    Dev squad x 5
    Heavy Bolter x 2

    Dev squad x 5
    Heavy Bolter x 2

    Pred Annilator
    Extra Armour

    This is a 1850 pt army exactly and is intended for tourney play. All my armies so far are hard hitting except my DH and they will not be played by me competitively again do to the fact they suck. I also have an IG army (that lacks mobility for competitive objective oriented play) and have had Eldar and Dark Eldar witch I believe to be the two most powerful forces in the game (rigged and need new dex).

    Last edited by HeadCheese; March 22nd, 2006 at 00:40.

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    whoa man you gots a lot of models pumping around there.
    The two tac squads that hunt armour are soooooo not needed bcoz of the 3 dev squads. im all for tank hunting but 5 units for it, its just a bit over the top.
    add up the points and ill give you a more detailed post.
    Cheers
    ps i have a traits based clan so sign up
    Only the weak tell tales of how strong they are...

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    sorry my bad i needed to take a closer look.
    Only the weak tell tales of how strong they are...

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    Looks very nice.. But why the term honours on your infiltrating squad? Oh, and assault squads can't infiltrate with or without a trait..

    I suggest moving term honours from tac#3 to one of the other tac squads, and with the points you (illegaly) spent on infiltration for your assault squad (24p.) get the other mounted serg term honours, find one extra point from somewhere and give those two vet sergs power weapons..

    Maybe by removing your frags on the command squad (but not your captain) and then you could instead give it a flamer..

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    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    I plan to get a new army for the 2006 year and after looking around it appears that a SM army will be the easiest for me with limited time and funds. I have been tooling around with the list’s and came up with the most versatile army I can and critique is welcome.

    Well im glad you stopped by here. There are some things you need to consider for your list.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    See but don't be seen
    Cleanse and purify
    We stand alone
    Eye to eye
    Fine, keep in mind though LST's are one of, if not the best, unit we have available to us so eye to eye may not be a great idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    This will be the main strike force / backbone if you will. Used to take objectives and deliver hard hits to the foe. A strong command unit is a must for me

    Master
    Frag
    Bolt pistol
    Power weapon

    Command Squad x 9
    Frag
    Champion
    Rhino
    Extra Armour
    Smoke
    Ok, this is not hard hitting in any way. In fact, chances are this will do very little hitting and when it does, wont hit very hard at all. You definately need to reconsider this. First off the rhino has really got to go. They are terrible in it as they can not charge the turn they deply from it and that will basically leave you as a sitting duck. So, were looking at 1 of 4 options. A LR to carry your command squad. you COULD fit one into an 1850 list. I would go with a normal LR and drop your pred as the LR will make up for the nati tank you loose. You could drop pod, a better idea then a LR IMHO as you arent spending so many points in one place that can be destroyed. Cheaper then a rhino and more reliable to get you where your going. Next there is infiltrate. Not a bad idea as they can infiltrate intop cover and wait for the rest of your forces there and then come out to play. Lastly you can drop the command squad and give your HQ a jump pack and attach him to the assualt squad. As the assault squad cant infiltrate anyways, they wont be loosing anything from this.

    Any of those options would be FAR more effective then what you have now and 3 of the 4 are cheaper.

    Lastly, and this is a big one, if you want a rock hard strike force. The only way to go is with a chaplain. Litanies makes them very strong on the offensive and fearless means they will never ever run, wich can be very important for your shock troops. More importantly, your HQ will then have an invulnerable save and wont get obliterated by the first enemy HQ he comes up against.

    Oh, one more thing, in any close combat squad, you should ALWAYS have at least one powerfist. Without one, if someone charges you with a toughness 8 or higher unit or something with an AV (like a dread) consider your squad dead as they wont be able to hurt it. It seems you havnt read the SM tacticas, I highlly suggest them. They detail a lot of tactics and conepts you need to be aware of to make good tournament lists.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    Hard points designed to be able to counter both troops and heavy vehicles, that’s right heavy.. I have done the calculations and an Assault Cannon has a greater chance of penetrating 14 AR than does a Las-Cannon but with lower AR it leans to the Las. The dread is there more for the fact I have 3 of them painted already and plan to use one. I will never run a SM army without such an awesome model.
    Yes, thats commonly known. However to make the most use of them and ensure that both these units do their jobs, I would give them drop pods. Far more important for the dread as otherwise chances are he will fall to some random heavy weapon on his way up the board. It can also help prrotect the termies as you can place the pod in between the termies and say a plasma cannon, wich would otherwise devastate a deepstriking termie squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    Terminator x 5
    Assault Cannon x 2
    Perfect, but consider a pod.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    Dreadnought
    Extra Armour
    Smoke launchers!! if your walking him up the field, its absolutely necessary. Drop pod would do him far better though.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    The two mobile TAC squads will hunt armour and put up hard points in the chokes. The foot sloggers will infiltrate to help secure important terrain for strategic reasons as well as pop light armour and heavy infantry.
    Good idea but youve got it backwards. the squads in rhinoes (of wich honestly you should just ditch and go with infiltrate all arround, cheaper and far more reliable) Shoudl have plasma as they wont be charging (as rapid fire weapons dont allow you to charge) and the infiltrate squad should have the meltas as there is a good chance (especially with the short range of the meltas) that they will get a chance to assault. For this reason it should also have a powerfisted vet sergeant.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    TAC squad x 8
    Melta x 2
    Rhino
    Extra Armour
    Smoke

    Tac squad x 8
    Melta x 2
    Rhino
    Extra Armour
    Smoke
    Plasma. And honestly, I hope you havnt bought this many rhinos yet. You will be sorely dispointed with their poerformance. Infiltrate would do you FAR better.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    Tac squad x 10
    Term Honours
    Plasma x 2
    Infiltrate
    This squad should have meltas and a powerfist. Why did you give the sergeant terminator honours but nor gear? ESPECIALLY since you have a master? he doesnt get the LD bonus from the TH and 1 extra normal attack REALLY isnt worth the cost. Powerfist him.


    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    Single minded, they are here to help me gain advantage in the outset of game. The have infiltrate so I can deploy near strategic points and counter any move made for them before HQ or Troop can take advantage. I have tooled them minimal so they can just be a threat, they are not for taking objectives or smashing the enemy line.

    Assault Squad x 8
    Infiltrate
    Term Honours
    Power weapon
    They cant infiltrate. This with a powerfist instead of a sword and attached to your chaplain jump pack HQ will make for a VERY hard hitting rock solid HQ unit. Id recommend that. be sure to add 2 plasma pistols. They come in handy when something only the powerfist can damage is headed your way. id also go with 10 men.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    Not putting to many eggs in one basket, the Dev’s are just troop killers. Each has 2 heavy bolters and 3 bolters to splatter hits into enemy troops. I don’t want overkill on this and wanted to direct fire into multiple groups incase I can force test’s after 1 volley (I like to force tests). The Predator is for back up on the enemy special characters and armour. I love the model and don’t need anymore anti troops as far as I can tell but he may be on the chopping block.

    Dev squad x 5
    Heavy Bolter x 2

    Dev squad x 5
    Heavy Bolter x 2

    Pred Annilator
    Extra Armour
    The dev idea wasnt bad at all. We need to fix up te rest of your list before deciding what they should be equipped with though.

    The pred has got to go. Do you really expect people to leave things in LOS of a 3x lascannon pred? It cant move and fire all 3 and people, unfortunately, dont oblige you by willinglly putting stuff in its path......unless they are dumb. In this list it should be droppped, but id seriously consider switching the sponsons anyways. In a competitive setting the ability to move and fire all its weapons (as well as its dual purpose in that case) will be far more of a benefit to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    This is a 1850 pt army exactly and is intended for tourney play. All my armies so far are hard hitting except my DH and they will not be played by me competitively again do to the fact they suck. I also have an IG army (that lacks mobility for competitive objective oriented play) and have had Eldar and Dark Eldar witch I believe to be the two most powerful forces in the game (rigged and need new dex).
    Lol, Mech eldar are pretty strong, but your opinion on this is a little skewed. I think we need to optimise your SM building skills before you make judgements like that. If I were you the fiorst thing I would do is go read all the tacticas. They detail units and concepts you deifnately need to eb aware of for tourny play. The list currently really isnt very compatitive at all. Oh, and illegal of course lol, but thats easily fixed.

    Cheers Mate!
    Welcome to Space Marines and good try.
    Well have you up and running with a compatitive list in no time flat.
    Mentor of Space Marine Commanders far and wide.

    Efficiency VS Point Cost VS Ease Of Use - Your best bets:

    1) Chaplain led Assault squad - 2 plasma pistols, powerfisted sergeant

    2) 8 man Devastator squad - 4 missile launchers

    3) Land Speeder Tornado - HB + AC

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    First let me clear some things up, the TH on the TAC squad with no gear is a simple oversight. I make my list’s in excel and copy paste as I finalize point cost. I planned to beef the squad but kept taken points away from HQ to do so and decided to get help on the fundamentals before making any further changes. That also explains my HQ, it started out much stronger but I kept thinning it out to bolster the rest of my squads. I didn’t realize I had made it fully inept by this point.

    Also, thanks for the constructive critique. I also found the tactical article’s very useful.

    Ok, onto the revised list.
    With an inept HQ and the cost involved to improve its playability I decided to scratch it altogether. What I opted for instead was a Chaplain as suggested that will be attached to a fully tooled assault squad. I still do not plan on having them on my opponents side of the table til late game or unless he makes a mistake. I plan for them support my infiltrating units VS assault, be the spring on traps etc..

    HQ 121

    Reclusiarch
    Bolt Pistol
    Frag
    Jump Pack

    Fast 420

    The assault squad has a role but the 2 LST’s I am not yet clear on how they will role out other than to pick off the edges so to speak. Hit anything they can while keeping minimal LOS, even after reading up I am still uncomfortable with there lack of armour but could easily see them jumping in front of an ubber tooled DP/Tyrant or C-Tan etc.. to force them to either take a turn or move around.

    Assualt Squad x 10
    Plasma Pistol x 2
    Term Honours
    Power Fist

    Land Speeder Tornado

    Land Speeder Tornado

    Not sure how the pod works exactly, I would assume it remains on the table as terrain and blocks LOS in addition to its ability to shoot. If that’s the case then I am sold, these guys will disembark giving only line of site to something I know I can get rid of on the turn they do so. This will add the ability to cut off choke points as well as get my nasty’s where they are needed most (but reserve rolls have always been my bane). If they don’t remain on the table as terrain then I am not so sure I want them at all.

    Elite 413

    Terminator x 5
    Assault Cannon x 2
    Drop Pod

    Dreadnought
    Extra Armour
    Smoke
    Drop Pod

    I dropped several melta’s in favor of more plasma just because of the range. The units where fitted as suggested with the hidden power fist’s and given infiltrate in place of rhino’s. I am still not sure if rhino’s are as inept as suggested by the tactica’s and plan to do further research before I purchase. But my focus for these squads has changed and I see them occupying the bulk of the strategic areas of the table and providing some serious sting for enemy HQ, elites and lite armour. May even drop the melta altogether in favor of more plasma.

    Troop 621

    Tac squad x 8
    Melta x 2
    Infiltrate
    Term Honours
    Power Fist
    Bolt Pistol

    Tac squad x 8
    Plasma x 2
    Infiltrate
    Term Honours
    Power Fist
    Bolt Pistol
    Auspex

    Tac squad x 8
    Plasma x 2
    Infiltrate
    Term Honours
    Power Fist
    Bolt Pistol
    Auspex

    With the added anti troop of the LST’s and with points to burn after dropping HQ and pred (wasn’t a fan of the pred anyway) I tooled these guys for anti armour. Both squad's have infiltrate so I can set them up last. I again didn’t put all the eggs in 1 basket and don’t see why one would ever use 4 in 1 squad unless you know you will see a Lith and then 4 LC’s might be worth it.

    But I am seeing less and less use for these squads, I may just put them back the HB’s and use the points to add anti armour somewhere else or to fill up the TAC squads.

    Heavy 275

    Dev squad x 5
    Las Cannon x 2
    Infiltrate

    Dev squad x 5
    Missle Launcher x 2
    Infiltrate

    BTW, foot slogging Eldar that max Star Cannon’s and Reaper Launcher’s that I worry about not the Mech.

    *Edit - thomory, point taken
    Last edited by HeadCheese; March 23rd, 2006 at 03:31.

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    Looks very nice indeed.. I'm not a big fan of plasmapistols though, I would drop them and get one more marine in both your devastator squads to make them last longer..

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    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    First let me clear some things up, the TH on the TAC squad with no gear is a simple oversight. I make my list’s in excel and copy paste as I finalize point cost. I planned to beef the squad but kept taken points away from HQ to do so and decided to get help on the fundamentals before making any further changes. That also explains my HQ, it started out much stronger but I kept thinning it out to bolster the rest of my squads. I didn’t realize I had made it fully inept by this point.

    Also, thanks for the constructive critique. I also found the tactical article’s very useful.
    My pleasure, always happy to help.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    Ok, onto the revised list.
    With an inept HQ and the cost involved to improve its playability I decided to scratch it altogether. What I opted for instead was a Chaplain as suggested that will be attached to a fully tooled assault squad. I still do not plan on having them on my opponents side of the table til late game or unless he makes a mistake. I plan for them support my infiltrating units VS assault, be the spring on traps etc..

    HQ 121

    Reclusiarch
    Bolt Pistol
    Frag
    Jump Pack
    Perfect. I personally like adding the terminato honours for the extra attack but sometimes points are pretty sparse.


    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    The assault squad has a role but the 2 LST’s I am not yet clear on how they will role out other than to pick off the edges so to speak. Hit anything they can while keeping minimal LOS, even after reading up I am still uncomfortable with there lack of armour but could easily see them jumping in front of an ubber tooled DP/Tyrant or C-Tan etc.. to force them to either take a turn or move around.

    Assualt Squad x 10
    Plasma Pistol x 2
    Term Honours
    Power Fist

    Land Speeder Tornado

    Land Speeder Tornado

    THe LST's are your mobile fire support. They have great maneuverability, great strength, high volume of fire and rending. This means they can take on any unit in the game. With the ability to move 12" and fire all weaponry, they are fantastic in any roll you use them. This is your jack of all trades unit used to bolster flanks that are falling in, emergency tank hunting or MC hunting, swarm control or just to finish off units. The armor is low and you need to always keep them out of rapid fire range but once you get the hang of it youll quickly realise how deadly and efficient these units are. In my opinion, they are the very best unit SM have.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    Not sure how the pod works exactly, I would assume it remains on the table as terrain and blocks LOS in addition to its ability to shoot. If that’s the case then I am sold, these guys will disembark giving only line of site to something I know I can get rid of on the turn they do so. This will add the ability to cut off choke points as well as get my nasty’s where they are needed most (but reserve rolls have always been my bane). If they don’t remain on the table as terrain then I am not so sure I want them at all.

    Elite 413

    Terminator x 5
    Assault Cannon x 2
    Drop Pod

    Dreadnought
    Extra Armour
    Smoke
    Drop Pod
    They do block LOS. Even better once they are destroyed, you can leave the wreckage and it STILL blocks LOS. Insta terrain is VERY handy. Also, that 2" deployment from the pod can be helpful getting into the proper firing arc to shoot around some terrain, compensate for scatter or get at that read armor of a vehicle. Pods are one of the best things we gained access to in the new codex and xenos and heretics alike have been moaning and groaning because of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    I dropped several melta’s in favor of more plasma just because of the range. The units where fitted as suggested with the hidden power fist’s and given infiltrate in place of rhino’s. I am still not sure if rhino’s are as inept as suggested by the tactica’s and plan to do further research before I purchase. But my focus for these squads has changed and I see them occupying the bulk of the strategic areas of the table and providing some serious sting for enemy HQ, elites and lite armour. May even drop the melta altogether in favor of more plasma.

    Troop 621

    Tac squad x 8
    Melta x 2
    Infiltrate
    Term Honours
    Power Fist
    Bolt Pistol

    Tac squad x 8
    Plasma x 2
    Infiltrate
    Term Honours
    Power Fist
    Bolt Pistol
    Auspex

    Tac squad x 8
    Plasma x 2
    Infiltrate
    Term Honours
    Power Fist
    Bolt Pistol
    Auspex
    Remember, plasma, as a rapid fire weapon, keeps you from charging. To save on points and maximise efficiency I would make the plasma squads soley shooty. Drop all the upgrades on the sergeants and simply give them bolters. Also, remember, plasma only has longer range if you dont move. considering that, it only has 6" on the meltas. The bonus is that since you wont be charging anyways yuo can fire with the bolters as well. The melta equipped squads are shock troop hunters. They fore their melta guns before charging into strong troops, MC's or walkers. Obviously to maximise efficency in these squads, you take the traight that allows them close combat weapons and bolt pistols, but youd have to give up infiltrate and thats just wont do. id leave one melta squad in, youll be suprised how well it performs.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    With the added anti troop of the LST’s and with points to burn after dropping HQ and pred (wasn’t a fan of the pred anyway) I tooled these guys for anti armour. Both squad's have infiltrate so I can set them up last. I again didn’t put all the eggs in 1 basket and don’t see why one would ever use 4 in 1 squad unless you know you will see a Lith and then 4 LC’s might be worth it.

    But I am seeing less and less use for these squads, I may just put them back the HB’s and use the points to add anti armour somewhere else or to fill up the TAC squads.

    Heavy 275

    Dev squad x 5
    Las Cannon x 2
    Infiltrate

    Dev squad x 5
    Missle Launcher x 2
    Infiltrate
    Personally I wouldnt go with lascannons, they cost too much. Id just go for 8 man 4 missile. Its not expensive, last a long time and carries anough good firepower to be very deadly.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeadCheese
    BTW, foot slogging Eldar that max Star Cannon’s and Reaper Launcher’s that I worry about not the Mech.
    If this is what your worrying about there are quite a few ways to deal with it (and your lucky cause mech eldar that max starcannons are freaking horribly deadly).

    Bikes are good as they can be given an invulnerable save right up untill the turn they assault.

    LST's as always. Reaper squads being small, if you jump them with a cuple LST's chances are the all go down. Youll need a few of them to take out a full guardian squad. Be careful though as both starcannons and reaper launchers can effectively take down speeders. Your best bet against a foot slogging eldar force honestly is a whilrwind.
    Mentor of Space Marine Commanders far and wide.

    Efficiency VS Point Cost VS Ease Of Use - Your best bets:

    1) Chaplain led Assault squad - 2 plasma pistols, powerfisted sergeant

    2) 8 man Devastator squad - 4 missile launchers

    3) Land Speeder Tornado - HB + AC

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