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Thread: 2000 Pt IG

  1. #1
    Member erommelus's Avatar
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    -77 (x0)

    2000 Pt IG

    Well, I may be starting IG soon, so I put this list together with the idea of strong anti-tank, durability, and anti-infantry.

    Command squad w/ 2 anti-tank squads and junior officer, 7 lascannons --> 285 pts

    5 X infantry platoon containing: 1 command squad w/ 1 lascannon and junior officer, 2 infantry squads 10 ea 1 las cannon each --> 1175 pts

    3 sentinels w/ 1 lascannon --> 165 pts

    3 Basilisks w/ indirect fire --> 375 pts

    total--> 2000 Pts


    25 Lascannons, 3 str 9 ap2 ordnance templates, and a total of 148 models.


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  3. #2
    Mr Commisar to you Commisarlestat's Avatar
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    first off the bassies arent AP2 its AP3.
    Secondly you have no leadership so you will run away at the first sign of trouble.
    thirdly: Lascannons are only one shot so you miss half the time making them so much less effective than you think. To put it into perspective ana rmy against you with no tanks means you have wasted the points and an army with tanks say an armoured company well il work it out for you.

    25 lascannons if you get first turn will see a max of half of their vehicles (people arent stupid) also not all of your lascannons will be in line of site il be generous and knock off 5 only. so we have twenty shots thats oooo 10 hits and 1.5 glancing and 1.5 penetrating hits against your typical AV14 armoured company. spread around as many people as possible that is two tanks with a 0.5 ish percent of one tank kill and one tank non moving. The bassies well they are rubbish at antitank if you are extremely lucky thats a single hit and a less than 0.1 percent chance of a kill. yes it is statistics and they arent everything but even if you roll very well thats two to three tanks a turn if the sit and do nothing at all. As soon as they shoot then blam half your army gone perhaps one tank kill if you are lucky turn three most of your army gone with almost no chance of another kill.

    Fourthly: this army is in no way shape or form antiinfantry. Lascannons are antitank heavy bolters are antiinfantry.
    Fifthly: you say strong anti tank and that doesnt actually mean lots of lascannons, you say durability, your men have no staying power whatsoever and as for antiinfantry see above.

    Sorry to be so harsh but i think you need to rethink the concept as this army doesnt even have a hint of balance, and no chance of success against an average player.

    A

  4. #3
    Member erommelus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commisarlestat
    first off the bassies arent AP2 its AP3.
    Secondly you have no leadership so you will run away at the first sign of trouble.
    thirdly: Lascannons are only one shot so you miss half the time making them so much less effective than you think. To put it into perspective ana rmy against you with no tanks means you have wasted the points and an army with tanks say an armoured company well il work it out for you.
    This is a good point. I will play test with commissars.

    25 lascannons if you get first turn will see a max of half of their vehicles (people arent stupid) also not all of your lascannons will be in line of site il be generous and knock off 5 only. so we have twenty shots thats oooo 10 hits and 1.5 glancing and 1.5 penetrating hits against your typical AV14 armoured company. spread around as many people as possible that is two tanks with a 0.5 ish percent of one tank kill and one tank non moving. The bassies well they are rubbish at antitank if you are extremely lucky thats a single hit and a less than 0.1 percent chance of a kill. yes it is statistics and they arent everything but even if you roll very well thats two to three tanks a turn if the sit and do nothing at all. As soon as they shoot then blam half your army gone perhaps one tank kill if you are lucky turn three most of your army gone with almost no chance of another kill.
    I like the 3+ pen rather than the 5+ glance.

    Fourthly: this army is in no way shape or form antiinfantry. Lascannons are antitank heavy bolters are antiinfantry.
    Minus the lascannons, rapid fire weapons with 3 ordnance templates.

    Fifthly: you say strong anti tank and that doesnt actually mean lots of lascannons, you say durability, your men have no staying power whatsoever and as for antiinfantry see above.
    I disagree. 130+ models is plenty of durability.

    Sorry to be so harsh but i think you need to rethink the concept as this army doesnt even have a hint of balance, and no chance of success against an average player.
    I like your catch on the leadership.

    However, I do not agree with you on this army not being anti-infantry or anti-tank.
    Last edited by erommelus; July 30th, 2006 at 17:40.

  5. #4
    Mr Commisar to you Commisarlestat's Avatar
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    okies il re explain
    thankyou for taking on board the leadership comments.
    Think how much your single lascannon costs right now think what else you can get for that. now think you are spending over a quarter of your armies points on them.

    and in reply to your points
    it is impossible to get 3+ penetration on AV14 as i explained 5 to glance 6 to penetrate is the best you can do. to get 3+ penetration you would need strength 12!! as a lascannon is only strength x you arent going to do any better.
    The three ordnance does go a long way to being antiinfantry but how many men will you kill? well say 2 of the templates dont scatter and one does (bearing in mind that these are useles against armour) then you might wound oooo i dunno 16 men now if they arent stupid those will be in cover so they will lose half that so 8 men a turn that isnt even a whole squad. Against marines in the open i admit youll probably frag most of their infantry into next week until turn 2 of course when their deepstrike and assault units destroy your bassies.
    A body count doesnt mean durability think a marine player with half your models has the same "durability" as this force. He can also afford it at these points. durability is high leadership and being in cover and making the most of things. 130 can be taken down soo quickly because you cant put them all into cover.

    To reiterate against an armoured company you would stand no chance (especially if they use infernus shells shudder). you cant kill enough tanks quickly enough before they kill you. How do you kill more if not with lascannons then? well you deepstrike meltas or infiltrate them, you make your infantry durable which they arent they are numerous two completely different things.

    Another thing if their troops are in your rapid fire range theyve charged you and will be locked in combat with so much stuff on your side it wont play a huge part also against anything biggish youll be wounding it on at least 5's and that only a basic marine. your shooting suddenly bacomes impotent very very quickly.

    You need balance to make this army work. Yes go lascannon heavy its a good theme but support it with something else.

    A

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    Member erommelus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commisarlestat
    okies il re explain
    thankyou for taking on board the leadership comments.
    No Problem

    and in reply to your points
    it is impossible to get 3+ penetration on AV14 as i explained 5 to glance 6 to penetrate is the best you can do. to get 3+ penetration you would need strength 12!! as a lascannon is only strength x you arent going to do any better.
    Well it appears you misunderstood, I was referring to the rolls on the pen table vs the glancing table. A 3+ on the pen table gives me points vs a 5+ on the glancing table to accomplish the same, which is all I would have if I fielded str 8 weapons against AV 14. The other good thing about 25 lascannons is that they can be used as anti-monstrous creature weapons and as anti-infantry weapons. That ap 2 goes a LONG ways towards making those tough carni's, terminators, and 2+'s go away! If I dont have that walking towards me, I will try to take out a squad in LOS each turn, or at least take it below half to get VPs or deny it as a scoring unit.

    The three ordnance does go a long way to being antiinfantry but how many men will you kill? well say 2 of the templates dont scatter and one does (bearing in mind that these are useles against armour) then you might wound oooo i dunno 16 men now if they arent stupid those will be in cover so they will lose half that so 8 men a turn that isnt even a whole squad. Against marines in the open i admit youll probably frag most of their infantry into next week until turn 2 of course when their deepstrike and assault units destroy your bassies.
    I've taken 3 str 8 ordnance templates before as a Chaos player and as orks. It does considerable damage. Spaced out or not, troops (plural) will die each turn to 3 ordnance templates.

    A body count doesnt mean durability think a marine player with half your models has the same "durability" as this force. He can also afford it at these points. durability is high leadership and being in cover and making the most of things. 130 can be taken down soo quickly because you cant put them all into cover.
    I disagree.

    Durability does come in numbers. Less 5+ troops means a greater chance of dying vs more 5+ troops--Basically I turn it into a attrition war which I have a high probability of winning. If I had roughly 1/2 of what I have now in terms of troops, there would be serious issues in trying to make the army last. By taking huge amounts of models it also means my enemies will need to kill more troops to get half or more points per squad or to discount them as scoring units.

    To reiterate against an armoured company you would stand no chance (especially if they use infernus shells shudder). you cant kill enough tanks quickly enough before they kill you. How do you kill more if not with lascannons then? well you deepstrike meltas or infiltrate them, you make your infantry durable which they arent they are numerous two completely different things.
    First, the armoured column list is banned in Britain and is soon to be banned in the USA if not already, it is a BEYOND broken list. In your hypothetical against a armoured list, I would NEED lascannons... Deep striking requires a 4+ roll in turn 2. By turn 2, I better kill his entire army with meltas, otherwise I'm dead. With the lascannons, I can shoot from turn 1 on.

    Another thing if their troops are in your rapid fire range theyve charged you and will be locked in combat with so much stuff on your side it wont play a huge part also against anything biggish youll be wounding it on at least 5's and that only a basic marine. your shooting suddenly bacomes impotent very very quickly.
    No, if they are in rapid fire range I've either moved there (depending on whether I need to use the lascannons) or they moved to a 12" or less range and could not charge. Basically if they move 6" or more in the first turn (tyrannids, Khorne, eldar, etc, etc) they are in MY rapid fire range.
    Last edited by erommelus; July 31st, 2006 at 22:08.

  7. #6
    Mr Commisar to you Commisarlestat's Avatar
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    i wasnt suggesting you swap everything to missiles however you arent going to need all of the lascannons.

    Anti terminators: well i find actually lascannons arent the best weapon against termies (they still get those damn invulnerable saves). You need to pummel them with loads of shots so plasma is a) cheaper and b)far more effective. If you got plasma and leadership in this list it would start being pretty damn sick. Also your army is then geared up to take down only one of the enemy squads yay ive killed all of his terminators by shooting my whole army at them oh no the rest of his army has just rampaged through my lines.

    I have also used ordnance a lot, and in allied games weve had far more than three pie plates. what i was trying to show you was that yes they can be devestating, especially direct hits against MEQ in the open, but people arent generally in the open and you will also scatter most of the time. Yes people can only spread out so much but it doesnt pay its points to have a couple of squadies killed per turn for each tank. You just might struggle to pay the points back.

    eg. against my guard in cover a whirlwind is just as good as a bassie but even hitting three squads (tall buildings and house rules) i only lost 6 men in my whole platoon. thats only about 36 points. and at 2000 points they arent going to last more than two turns (well all of them wont) which means ur bassies while great against horde need backup to finish off squads. same scenario of squads in building lets say two bassie hits thats twelve men dead out of the platoon they are still 100% effective in firepower you have done nothing. now add to that three heavy bolters at the squad that is the most depleted and wow itll take out a squad youve achaeived something.

    Yes durability can come in numbers but that is not the be all and end all. if you played a gaunt heavy tyranid army you wouldnt have near enough shots. yes the bassies would take their toll but the lascannons would be feeble in the numbers they kill.
    As for scoring units a guard squad down to three men is non scoring yet at long range it still has 100% of its firepower. just because a unit isnt scoring doesnt mean it isnt dangerous.

    How would your army suddenly half in numbers by taking more varied weapons. more varied weapons means cheaper ones so ud actually have more men if you are going for attrition try all heavy bolters and something to take out the odd tank. all heavy bolters would give you loads more men and loads more shots which they would eventually fail. that is attrition.

    The armoured column list is only banned in tournies. As for local gaming groups its perfectly legal otherwise forgeworld would have collapsed. in the store i play at five people have them. Yes they arent used often but, they are used and if you agree to play a person with one then you cant get all shirty on them for being overpowered because actually the list isnt. Its a very difficult army to play well and hard to win with if playing someone half decent. Yes you would need lascannons but as i showed if thats all you take you will only take down 1-2 tanks a turn theyll have 10 others coming at you in 2000 points. the deepstriking troops may not do much damage but that is only half their job. They are a threat they have to be dealt with giving you another turn of shooting with your lascannons which is probably all ud need. Its a diversion.

    Right rapid fire you've said depending on wether i need to use the lascannons well a squad of lasrifles is going to do bugger all oh you might use three ok well youve suceeded in killing three marines perhaps 5 if you are a lucky person.

    Well considering you should set up 24" away from your opponent thatll be two turns before theyll be in your rapid fire range then against nids they will never be in it for you to fire. They stay at 13" move 6" fleet a minimum of 1" and then assault 6" so no rapid firing. rapid firing is something you do if you get lucky or if you have a second line. lasguns en masse yeah fantastic but you would have to use every lasgun in your army to take down one marine squad. Then you cant use your lascannons. it isnrt anti infantry to have lasrifles.

    Basically all of your points are fairly valid however only if you are playing bad players. an assault army wont stay in your rapid fire range ever. jump packs can move sooo fast; then fleeting nids explained above. Once they are in your lines thats it endgame. you have no backup. if you get first turn you might kill a few units off but after that when you take fire youll die sooo quickly.
    you need balance all you have done is gone ooo look how many lascannons can i fit in 2000 points. if that was the answer then there wouldnt need to be other weapons.

    A

    edit sorry for the long post i got a bit carried away!!
    Last edited by Commisarlestat; July 31st, 2006 at 23:14.

  8. #7
    Member erommelus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commisarlestat
    i wasnt suggesting you swap everything to missiles however you arent going to need all of the lascannons.

    Anti terminators: well i find actually lascannons arent the best weapon against termies (they still get those damn invulnerable saves). You need to pummel them with loads of shots so plasma is a) cheaper and b)far more effective. If you got plasma and leadership in this list it would start being pretty damn sick. Also your army is then geared up to take down only one of the enemy squads yay ive killed all of his terminators by shooting my whole army at them oh no the rest of his army has just rampaged through my lines.
    At 2k pts, I would be grinning ear to ear at seeing terminators. Firstly, I would not need just the lascannons, I would also have rapid fire. Why do I say this? Because terminators are worthless if not deep striked or transported. Usually, they will be deep striked with a homer (good players dont allow them to drift away). The other times they are in a land raider or walking across the battlefield, both of which are a waste of points. Now... After they deep-strike, they can still shoot, but thats it. So, I shoot the crap out of them with 1-2 squads and maybe the command squad, maybe not... So to sum up, thats 90+ shots rapid fire and maybe 9 lascannon shots = hasta la vista terminators. I would still have 3 squads, plenty of lascannons, and 3 ordnance templates for anyone else who wanted to march across the field.

    I have also used ordnance a lot, and in allied games weve had far more than three pie plates. what i was trying to show you was that yes they can be devestating, especially direct hits against MEQ in the open, but people arent generally in the open and you will also scatter most of the time. Yes people can only spread out so much but it doesnt pay its points to have a couple of squadies killed per turn for each tank. You just might struggle to pay the points back.
    Well, ordnance is perfect for a game of attrition. It works great or it works good, either way I'll take it because it works. :yes:

    eg. against my guard in cover a whirlwind is just as good as a bassie but even hitting three squads (tall buildings and house rules) i only lost 6 men in my whole platoon. thats only about 36 points. and at 2000 points they arent going to last more than two turns (well all of them wont) which means ur bassies while great against horde need backup to finish off squads. same scenario of squads in building lets say two bassie hits thats twelve men dead out of the platoon they are still 100% effective in firepower you have done nothing. now add to that three heavy bolters at the squad that is the most depleted and wow itll take out a squad youve achaeived something.
    I understand your point of having support, but I do not understand why you imply I have no support. There is 130+ models on the board with lascannons and rapid fire. Thats plenty of support IMHO.

    Yes durability can come in numbers but that is not the be all and end all. if you played a gaunt heavy tyranid army you wouldnt have near enough shots. yes the bassies would take their toll but the lascannons would be feeble in the numbers they kill.
    As for scoring units a guard squad down to three men is non scoring yet at long range it still has 100% of its firepower. just because a unit isnt scoring doesnt mean it isnt dangerous.
    I believe that VPs and scoring units are what win me the game. This sounds obvious, however most people assume that means everything must be off the table. As a troop heavy IG army, it would take a LOT of wounds to bring me down...LOTS. Tyrannids with monstrous creaures (lascannons) would not cut it, they would die before getting to me. If they did by some chance, big deal, thats 1-6 guys dead per turn = I win because he's tied up on one squad. and I'm moving the rest of my army away. Tyrannids with lots of troops would not cut it due to the ordnance templates and rapid fire heaven, whatever little is left over gets swarmed by tons of troops = I win.

    How would your army suddenly half in numbers by taking more varied weapons. more varied weapons means cheaper ones so ud actually have more men if you are going for attrition try all heavy bolters and something to take out the odd tank. all heavy bolters would give you loads more men and loads more shots which they would eventually fail. that is attrition.
    No, I can win by attrition without all those heavy bolters. In fact, I would be severely lacking anti-tank if I did that. The anti-infantry, anti-tank, and numbers are all there already. I have time on my side, while my opponents do not. They have to kill as much as they can as fast as they can. Thats not a very good strategy to have in any game. That type of strategy sets up people to rush into things, take risks, and make wrong decisions. With this list on the other hand I do not have to do anything other than blow stuff off the battlefield with ordnance, rapid fire the hell out of anything in range, and tie up what wants to CC me for turns at a time.

    The armoured column list is only banned in tournies. As for local gaming groups its perfectly legal otherwise forgeworld would have collapsed. in the store i play at five people have them. Yes they arent used often but, they are used and if you agree to play a person with one then you cant get all shirty on them for being overpowered because actually the list isnt. Its a very difficult army to play well and hard to win with if playing someone half decent. Yes you would need lascannons but as i showed if thats all you take you will only take down 1-2 tanks a turn theyll have 10 others coming at you in 2000 points. the deepstriking troops may not do much damage but that is only half their job. They are a threat they have to be dealt with giving you another turn of shooting with your lascannons which is probably all ud need. Its a diversion.
    I play mainly in tournaments so I never see it. Fortunately for me, thats every weekend.

    Right rapid fire you've said depending on wether i need to use the lascannons well a squad of lasrifles is going to do bugger all oh you might use three ok well youve suceeded in killing three marines perhaps 5 if you are a lucky person.

    Well considering you should set up 24" away from your opponent thatll be two turns before theyll be in your rapid fire range then against nids they will never be in it for you to fire. They stay at 13" move 6" fleet a minimum of 1" and then assault 6" so no rapid firing. rapid firing is something you do if you get lucky or if you have a second line. lasguns en masse yeah fantastic but you would have to use every lasgun in your army to take down one marine squad. Then you cant use your lascannons. it isnrt anti infantry to have lasrifles.
    For any army with extra movement, it's turn 1. For everything else, it depends on what they do, which I'm pretty sure will not be to sit around and take 3 basi shots and upwards of 25 Lascannon shots per turn. I cant guarantee everything, but I'm still fine. Mathematically I have the ability to rapid fire almost 250 shots--Almost 50 shots per squad (save the pistols). Now, that does not take into account cover, basilisks, range, and all that good stuff--I realize that. However, what it does mean, is that I have a VERY good chance of winning due to attrition.

    Basically all of your points are fairly valid however only if you are playing bad players. an assault army wont stay in your rapid fire range ever. jump packs can move sooo fast; then fleeting nids explained above. Once they are in your lines thats it endgame. you have no backup. if you get first turn you might kill a few units off but after that when you take fire youll die sooo quickly.
    you need balance all you have done is gone ooo look how many lascannons can i fit in 2000 points. if that was the answer then there wouldnt need to be other weapons.
    No, they have to come to me. In fact, they would be 12" (jumpacks) or closer (extra movement as mentioned above) and that would set them up for huge losses when I move up to 6" into rapid fire range.

  9. #8
    Mr Commisar to you Commisarlestat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erommelus
    At 2k pts, I would be grinning ear to ear at seeing terminators. Firstly, I would not need just the lascannons, I would also have rapid fire. Why do I say this? Because terminators are worthless if not deep striked or transported. Usually, they will be deep striked with a homer (good players dont allow them to drift away). The other times they are in a land raider or walking across the battlefield, both of which are a waste of points. Now... After they deep-strike, they can still shoot, but thats it. So, I shoot the crap out of them with 1-2 squads and maybe the command squad, maybe not... So to sum up, thats 90+ shots rapid fire and maybe 9 lascannon shots = hasta la vista terminators. I would still have 3 squads, plenty of lascannons, and 3 ordnance templates for anyone else who wanted to march across the field.
    ok i know you are going to see termies and yes you can take them down but itll still take most of your army. you cant split your fire! so if you shoot with all your lascannons all of that rapid fire is wasted. ok deepstriked yup they only get one turn of shooting which will destroy one of your squads completely. (stormbolters in that quantity kill anything) ok youd fire about three squads into the terminators lets see what they do. firstly lascannons thats three so 1.5 hits and 1.25 wounds thats 0.83 termies dead oh go on round up youve killed one yay! three squads well thats ooo 54 lasrifle shots nice. so 27 hit and 9 wounds thats 1.5 dead so 1.5 plus 0.8 oh youve killed two termies. doesnt kick it for me you need plasma and the extra 6 ap2 shots and then thatll only kill bout 2 more. in a squad of five with plasma you will have one guy left no probs now its 2000 points so ul have ten of them to deal with so youve got 6 left even rolling averagely. you roll well and hey theyll still have 4 left. youd need to fire over twice that at them so only your bassies can fire at the enemy.


    Quote Originally Posted by erommelus
    Well, ordnance is perfect for a game of attrition. It works great or it works good, either way I'll take it because it works. :yes:
    didnt say you shudnt i happen to believe its the best bit of your army. just dont rely on it otherwise you will fail.


    Quote Originally Posted by erommelus
    I understand your point of having support, but I do not understand why you imply I have no support. There is 130+ models on the board with lascannons and rapid fire. Thats plenty of support IMHO.
    no it is not how many times support is from other weapons and styles. think of it like a song songs dont get better with more of the sam note they get boring. now and army is the same oh ive got more men woop de doo that isnt support. your bassies are support. and so are fire support squads (and their weapons) see something there.....


    Quote Originally Posted by erommelus
    I believe that VPs and scoring units are what win me the game. This sounds obvious, however most people assume that means everything must be off the table. As a troop heavy IG army, it would take a LOT of wounds to bring me down...LOTS. Tyrannids with monstrous creaures (lascannons) would not cut it, they would die before getting to me. If they did by some chance, big deal, thats 1-6 guys dead per turn = I win because he's tied up on one squad. and I'm moving the rest of my army away. Tyrannids with lots of troops would not cut it due to the ordnance templates and rapid fire heaven, whatever little is left over gets swarmed by tons of troops = I win.
    and you think that your opponent will never kill your models right?? wel thats what you sound like. plan to lose 25% of your army each turn (ie. turn one 75% left turn two 62.5%) then you will compensate fire losses and useless units.
    i said a tyranid GAUNT heavy army read my posts. lascannons could kill a gaunt a turn yay its overkill when you can have a bolter at 1 point that could kill 2 or a hevay bolter that could kill three. if you only rolled sixes otherwise ud kill far less.
    150 wounds easy when you have no leadership thats 3 men per squad i have to kill so i take 15 chimeras job done. if it was that simple there would be no point and no variation in the game.

    yeah 1-6 guys big deal; actually its a monstorous creature you cant fire at if its still in combat and a squads less shooting. also they will win you will run so ten men dead ten men tied up and no way to fight back a turn.


    Quote Originally Posted by erommelus
    No, I can win by attrition without all those heavy bolters. In fact, I would be severely lacking anti-tank if I did that. The anti-infantry, anti-tank, and numbers are all there already. I have time on my side, while my opponents do not. They have to kill as much as they can as fast as they can. Thats not a very good strategy to have in any game. That type of strategy sets up people to rush into things, take risks, and make wrong decisions. With this list on the other hand I do not have to do anything other than blow stuff off the battlefield with ordnance, rapid fire the hell out of anything in range, and tie up what wants to CC me for turns at a time.
    yup you would sverely lack antitank if you took all heavy bolters thats why i said take enough lascannons for the big stuff.


    Quote Originally Posted by erommelus
    I play mainly in tournaments so I never see it. Fortunately for me, thats every weekend.
    well lucky you.


    Quote Originally Posted by erommelus
    For any army with extra movement, it's turn 1. For everything else, it depends on what they do, which I'm pretty sure will not be to sit around and take 3 basi shots and upwards of 25 Lascannon shots per turn. I cant guarantee everything, but I'm still fine. Mathematically I have the ability to rapid fire almost 250 shots--Almost 50 shots per squad (save the pistols). Now, that does not take into account cover, basilisks, range, and all that good stuff--I realize that. However, what it does mean, is that I have a VERY good chance of winning due to attrition.
    well lets see then how do you get 50 shots per ten man squad please enlighten me. yup it doesnt take into account all of that other stuff which means you WONT have a good chance of winning by attrition.
    right now lets look at your fantastic rapid fire (which has to shoot at the same place as the lascannons.) in rapid fire range yes the pistols count the can only fire rapid fire distance remember so you have 250 rapid fire shots a turn if you can see with them all. now lets say for some highly improbable scenario you can well you miss half so 125 hits you wound with a third thats 42 wounds and they save 2/3rds thats 27 marines a turn very impressive add in the lascannons and thats three or even four squads down. now lets be realistic. only a fraction of your squads will get rapid fire and then some of them may have lascannoned thst tank over there. say you get 3 squads in well thatll be around 3-4 dead marines. it takes a lasrifle 18 shots to take out 1 marine. so thats one squad to one marine roughly so even if they are in rapid fire you might just cause a morale check if you are lucky.



    Quote Originally Posted by erommelus
    No, they have to come to me. In fact, they would be 12" (jumpacks) or closer (extra movement as mentioned above) and that would set them up for huge losses when I move up to 6" into rapid fire range.
    Actually its a YES. they can get in your rapid fire range and stand there like idiots but it doesnt happen. if you can assault more than 12" then you wont be in their rapid fire range full stop end ex finish. people arent stupid and if you move closer to them just to get rapid fire then you really need to rethink.


    you seem to put too much faith in your lasrifle. it isnt that good and yes en masse it can be fantastic but it is a last resort

    And for the last time lascannons are not antiinfantry no matter what way you dress it up.
    As for your comments on non scoring units its a falicy you may win if all of their units are under yes but then ul have left alive most of their dangerous weapons. a bassie is non scoring if its immobolised but noone usually moves them being non scoring doesnt mean they are out of the game. usually because its a non scoring unit people are rash with it and may assault well my mate did that with a lone vet sarge into a hive tyrant and wounded it so it no longer became scoring! yup rare but hey it happens.

    on an empty playing mat with the enemy 11" inches away you would eat them alive if you got first turn but then youd be killed too. look at some balanced lists please for the love of God.

    A

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    Librarian from Hell Andusciassus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erommelus
    thats 90+ shots rapid fire and maybe 9 lascannon shots
    Quote Originally Posted by Commisarlestat
    firstly lascannons thats three
    You see what you want...

    Quote Originally Posted by commisarlestat
    well lets see then how do you get 50 shots per ten man squad please enlighten me.
    If you take some time to read through erommelus list you'll realize that what he means by "squad" is most probably "platoon".

    Quote Originally Posted by commisarlestat
    so only your bassies can fire at the enemy.
    If he shot all but his Bassies at the Terminators thet would be something like...25 lascannons and 100+non rapid fiering lasguns. It only takes 32 lasgun shots (on average) to get a termie.

    Quote Originally Posted by erommelus
    3 str 9 ap2 ordnance templates
    The earthshaker is indeed S9 but "only" AP3.

    I would like to play against this list. It's massive and still offers a chance. I would however consider bringing up the Ld-ship of the officer in charge with a Honourifica Imperalis (sp?) and maybe swap the lascans on the walkers for say autocannons or multilasers. They are great for getting shots on side armour and against skimmers that can really "soak" lascan shots.
    I wish you good luck and keep on working with the list.

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    Member erommelus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commisarlestat
    ok i know you are going to see termies and yes you can take them down but itll still take most of your army. you cant split your fire! so if you shoot with all your lascannons all of that rapid fire is wasted. ok deepstriked yup they only get one turn of shooting which will destroy one of your squads completely. (stormbolters in that quantity kill anything) ok youd fire about three squads into the terminators lets see what they do. firstly lascannons thats three so 1.5 hits and 1.25 wounds thats 0.83 termies dead oh go on round up youve killed one yay! three squads well thats ooo 54 lasrifle shots nice. so 27 hit and 9 wounds thats 1.5 dead so 1.5 plus 0.8 oh youve killed two termies. doesnt kick it for me you need plasma and the extra 6 ap2 shots and then thatll only kill bout 2 more. in a squad of five with plasma you will have one guy left no probs now its 2000 points so ul have ten of them to deal with so youve got 6 left even rolling averagely. you roll well and hey theyll still have 4 left. youd need to fire over twice that at them so only your bassies can fire at the enemy.
    Sorry, I do not agree. I've played the game enough to know that rapid fire is any deep striking/footslogging/CC army's worst nightmare. There is no way they will survive a rapid fire round with that many shots, ordnance, and lascannons to boot--NONE. Lots of wounds, even at 2+ armor saves or no save at all (lascannons), is still lots of casualties. There is no way around that. Even it they did shoot well, that would be a lot of VERY expensive termies. The likelyhood of seeing a lot of termies against hard-nosed players is pretty slim, even in 2k points. Terminators are called point sinks for a reason; like I said earlier, I would grin ear to ear if I saw terminators on the board.


    no it is not how many times support is from other weapons and styles. think of it like a song songs dont get better with more of the sam note they get boring. now and army is the same oh ive got more men woop de doo that isnt support. your bassies are support. and so are fire support squads (and their weapons) see something there.....
    I would like to say that I could understand your point here, but I can't. So I will guess at your point, which is that rapid fire and lascannons are no support at all. I do not agree.

    and you think that your opponent will never kill your models right?? wel thats what you sound like. plan to lose 25% of your army each turn (ie. turn one 75% left turn two 62.5%) then you will compensate fire losses and useless units.
    That was not the context in which I was speaking. My point was that my tyrannid opponent, would not be able to kill enough of me to win because I've already shot a majority of his army to death.

    i said a tyranid GAUNT heavy army read my posts
    I added Monstrous creatures in there to boot. Read MY posts.

    yeah 1-6 guys big deal; actually its a monstorous creature you cant fire at if its still in combat and a squads less shooting. also they will win you will run so ten men dead ten men tied up and no way to fight back a turn.
    Once again you missed the point. In the unlikely case a monstrous creature becomes tied up into CC with me, it will give me time to move the rest of my army away and shoot the crap out of it once it leaves combat. Being that his points would be sunk into monstrous creatures and not lots of troops, it was a good point to make.


    yup you would sverely lack antitank if you took all heavy bolters thats why i said take enough lascannons for the big stuff.
    Lots of lascannons is the better way. Take to little, and a few missed shots later you will be severely hurting.

    well lucky you.
    You took that the wrong way.


    well lets see then how do you get 50 shots per ten man squad please enlighten me. yup it doesnt take into account all of that other stuff which means you WONT have a good chance of winning by attrition.
    Platoon...squad... whatever. It all means the same to me. My basic squads have 25 people in them so that is roughly 50 shots (save the pistols) with rapid fire. As I PREVIOUSLY stated, I know that cover, range, and position could be limiting factors that keeps those 250+ shots down. However, I also plan for that.

    Actually its a YES. they can get in your rapid fire range and stand there like idiots but it doesnt happen. if you can assault more than 12" then you wont be in their rapid fire range full stop end ex finish. people arent stupid and if you move closer to them just to get rapid fire then you really need to rethink.
    Actually it is still a NO. YOUR implication was that they would charge me and kill me to death. My assesment was NO--they have to come to me and that means they will be in rapid fire range before they charge me.


    you seem to put too much faith in your lasrifle. it isnt that good and yes en masse it can be fantastic but it is a last resort
    I have seen what rapid fire does to 3+ saves. At this point I can see that your advice is unexperienced with matters of rapid fire. This is not a bad thing because you may just have a different style of play.

    And for the last time lascannons are not antiinfantry no matter what way you dress it up.
    That many lascannon shots can easily take out a whole squad of marines. That's definitely anti-infantry. :yes:
    Last edited by erommelus; August 2nd, 2006 at 07:00.

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