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  1. #1
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    Very Shooty SW 2000 pt list - Friendly

    Ok, this list is very shooty-oriented. I figure that most of the units can sorta hold their own in CC, what with the Bolter/CCW true-grit, but that is not their primary function. Their primary function is to shoot the crap out of everything before they get within assault range. Those mid-range shooty grey hunters are my front lines. I expect them to get assaulted, not to do the assaulting. If they can assault, great, but I don't expect them to. The CC oriented GH pack is their to give some CC power, likewise with the BCs, except that they can jump in the LR as long as we're not doing escalation. The Wolfguard Termies put down hopefully a very solid firebase and can help in CC if needed.

    HQ-

    Venerable Dreadnought, PC, ML, EA - 180
    Rune Priest, Frost Blade, BP, Belt of Russ - 126
    Battle Leader, Frost Blade, SB, Termie Armor - 100

    ELITES -

    7 Wolf Guard Bodyguard, 3 Assault Cannon, 4 SB, 7 Termie Armor, 3 PF, 4 PW - 367

    TROOPS -

    10 Grey Hunters, 1 PF, 1 PG, 9 Bolter/CCW - 191
    10 Grey Hunters, 1 PF, 1 PG, 9 Bolter/CCW - 191
    8 Grey Hunters, 2 PW - 156
    10 Blood Claws, 2 PF - 164

    HEAVY SUPPORT -

    Whirlwind - 85
    Long Fang Pack, 4 ML - 188
    Land Raider - 250

    Please let me know what you think. I'm sure this isn't your standard Space Wolf list and it may not be the most competitive, but let me know if you think it will stand a chance. Even if you think its a decent list and dont' have much to say, please at least leave a comment so I know at least that much.

    Thanks a bunch.

    "There will never be enough peace in the universe unless first there is enough war." - Farseer Eleuflin

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Lord Spanko's Avatar
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    If you face a really shooty army like tau or eldar you will have to assualt them. I would also be afriad of nids and khorne that can assualt move more than 12 inches with move and assualt. Your army does not have enough CC ability to handel an army like that.

    If I were you I would add a normal dread. This will provide more shooting and tie up enemies in CC till your termis or troops can counter charge.
    If you build a man a fire he will be warm for a night. If you set a man on fire he will be warm the rest of his life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Battle-Brother Wags View Post
    Venerable Dreadnought, PC, ML, EA - 180
    I like this guy. When I've seen him play, he always seems to do well. He can take out heavy infantry or light vehicles, and can do a number on grouped infantry (think deep strike). As I know your fluff a little bit, I really think he fits your ideas well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Battle-Brother Wags View Post
    Rune Priest, Frost Blade, BP, Belt of Russ - 126
    I like this guy too. He is as stripped down as you can get and that's good (as a side note, do you really need the Belt of Russ? I'm not sure), and will help your BCs/GHs in attack by keeping them in cover with "Stormcaller". I'd join him up right away with a unit (or keep him just behind it, and keep a unit in cover.

    Quote Originally Posted by Battle-Brother Wags View Post
    Battle Leader, Frost Blade, SB, Termie Armor - 100
    You need a third leader, so I guess this guy is OK... As I'm assuming he's joining up with the terminator squad, so how he is laid out is fine. I know it's a cheap upgrade, but wouldn't a power weapon do almost the same thing as the Frost Blade. I'm trying to shave points that aren't required to add in another unit, so that's where the criticism comes from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Battle-Brother Wags View Post
    7 Wolf Guard Bodyguard, 3 Assault Cannon, 4 SB, 7 Termie Armor, 3 PF, 4 PW - 367
    Wow, expensive, but nice. The 3 Assault cannons will just about destroy any unit they can see. Which is also their biggest problem. You'll have to be careful in deployment to make sure that you'll have more than 1 target to shoot at during the first few turns. I can see a canny opponent keep his expensive squads away from these guys while feeding you units that would tie them up (tyranid swarm or something like that) if you don't deploy right.


    Quote Originally Posted by Battle-Brother Wags View Post
    10 Grey Hunters, 1 PF, 1 PG, 9 Bolter/CCW - 191
    10 Grey Hunters, 1 PF, 1 PG, 9 Bolter/CCW - 191
    8 Grey Hunters, 2 PW - 156
    Good choices. I think the PG will help you cause some damage up front, and the PF allows you to damage/kill the random MC or IC or such. I would like to see you make the 8-man unit 9 for the possibility of moving them and an the Rune Priest in the LR as well as the BCs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Battle-Brother Wags View Post
    10 Blood Claws, 2 PF - 164
    I'd like to see this unit larger (think 15 w/3 PFs) so that their counter charge will actually do something when it hits... 10 is fine, but 15 is better. However, with 15 they can't fit in the LR (although I might think that's where the 8-man grey hunters with Rune Priest could go as well, but to each his own, perhaps a LRC is in order. I know a guy who has one that might let you borrow it if you let him play tau ).


    Quote Originally Posted by Battle-Brother Wags View Post
    Whirlwind - 85
    Yup. Nice, if you don't have to move it. It seems to die fast if it gets flushed out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Battle-Brother Wags View Post
    Long Fang Pack, 4 ML - 188
    Yup, I hate these guys. But because they too good for their points, not for any other reason. They are a staple for you to give you some longer range firepower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Battle-Brother Wags View Post
    Land Raider - 250
    Maybe try to get a LRC? Maybe, but this also gives you some Lascannons that the list needs to take down those pesky things like Monoliths & such. So I'm mixed on it. A charge of 10 BCs out of it though after weathering the TLHB & TLLC shots should just about remove any enemy unit from play (assuming they aren't in cover).

    Overall, I like the list. It's a bit too small numberwise for the way I like to play (huge units of screaming men), but I think it will work. I think the absolute most important part of this list will be deployment. Basically, you need to make sure (though deployment and such)that you will get at least a turn of shooting at 24", and then at least a turn of RFing from the whole army or else the list will fail. You need to "thin the ranks" before they hit. I think that's why you'll get suggestions that it will be hard to play against some armies (tyranids, for instance). If you don't get both of those rounds of effective shooting from just about every trooper (GHs & BCs), the army will get swamped in CC, and remove the abilities of your terms and dread to cause havoc like they can when they shoot. You don't have enough hits in CC to take down swarms if you don't thin the swarms in the shooting phase.

    Overall though, I like the army and it is a big step in the desired direction for you (from CC to close range shooting). I'll be excited to see it on the table against BTs or Tau (or the soon to be coming Drop IG)!

    Enjoy the PC & WH book (they were left on you desk).
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Y'he Sha'is View Post
    Overall, I like the list. It's a bit too small numberwise for the way I like to play (huge units of screaming men), but I think it will work. I think the absolute most important part of this list will be deployment. Basically, you need to make sure (though deployment and such)that you will get at least a turn of shooting at 24", and then at least a turn of RFing from the whole army or else the list will fail. You need to "thin the ranks" before they hit. I think that's why you'll get suggestions that it will be hard to play against some armies (tyranids, for instance). If you don't get both of those rounds of effective shooting from just about every trooper (GHs & BCs), the army will get swamped in CC, and remove the abilities of your terms and dread to cause havoc like they can when they shoot. You don't have enough hits in CC to take down swarms if you don't thin the swarms in the shooting phase.

    I'm thinking that model-count is the problem in any force that utilizes terminators . . . especially because SW allow you to take a large enough group of them to take 3 assault cannons. While that is a very nice thing, I'm not sure if it is cost effective. I guess the only way to find out is to play it. But yeah, a low model count is definately a down-side to this army.

    While I don't see myself playing against tyranids any time soon . . . mobility might be an issue. I'm not sure how well this list would do vs. Tau. Deployment, as you mentioned, is key. Unfortunately, poor deployment has led to more than one of my downfalls. Oh well. I don't have that many terminators at the moment anyway, but if I can proxy them somehow, I might find it worth buying that many.

    Any more comments? Suggestions or help?
    "There will never be enough peace in the universe unless first there is enough war." - Farseer Eleuflin

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    Senior Member Valerian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battle-Brother Wags View Post
    I'm thinking that model-count is the problem in any force that utilizes terminators . . . especially because SW allow you to take a large enough group of them to take 3 assault cannons. While that is a very nice thing, I'm not sure if it is cost effective. I guess the only way to find out is to play it. But yeah, a low model count is definately a down-side to this army.

    While I don't see myself playing against tyranids any time soon . . . mobility might be an issue. I'm not sure how well this list would do vs. Tau. Deployment, as you mentioned, is key. Unfortunately, poor deployment has led to more than one of my downfalls. Oh well. I don't have that many terminators at the moment anyway, but if I can proxy them somehow, I might find it worth buying that many.

    Any more comments? Suggestions or help?
    Wags,

    Do you know who you are playing (i.e. what army)? I see its a friendly list, so do you know your opponent and/or mission, or are you trying to design an all-comers list?

    I appreciate the desire to get that 3rd assault cannon, but think you've got a few more Terminators than you need, especially since they all have to move around together. I'd cut the Wolf Guard bodyguard down to 4 (2 with Assault Cannon), and use the leftover points to get an LST or two (more Assault Cannon fun, but with greater mobility and flexibility).

    I'm also not a Land Raider fan; too expensive for what you get, and would recommend trading it for other options (Predators, more LSTs, 2 more Dreadnoughts, etc.), but that's personal preference.

    Best of luck,

    Valerian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerian View Post
    Wags,

    Do you know who you are playing (i.e. what army)? I see its a friendly list, so do you know your opponent and/or mission, or are you trying to design an all-comers list?

    I appreciate the desire to get that 3rd assault cannon, but think you've got a few more Terminators than you need, especially since they all have to move around together. I'd cut the Wolf Guard bodyguard down to 4 (2 with Assault Cannon), and use the leftover points to get an LST or two (more Assault Cannon fun, but with greater mobility and flexibility).

    I'm also not a Land Raider fan; too expensive for what you get, and would recommend trading it for other options (Predators, more LSTs, 2 more Dreadnoughts, etc.), but that's personal preference.

    Best of luck,

    Valerian

    The only two armies that I face (so far, at least) are Black Templar and Tau . . . who are, of course, on the extreme opposite ends of the tactical spectrum. So if I want a list to go against either/or, then I need to have a fairly all-comer savvy list. We usually roll randomly for missions . . . although it seems like we always end up playing Omega style missions so that escalation takes a big part in the mission.

    I am wondering about your idea of fewer Wolf Guard to make 2 Assault Cannons . . . with only 4, plus the Battle Leader that is needed to have Wolf Guard Bodyguards at all, I just don't know if they can put out the devastation to make up for their cost. Actually, I was wondering if having enough to have 3 assault cannons was worth it . . . but . . . so currently my new list doesn't actually even have any terminators. I'll post the new list if you want to take a look at it.

    How does two more Dreadnoughts sound? I was thinking about two Dreads each with an assault cannon and missile launcher. That way it is effective at killing infantry as well as decent at killing all but the heaviest of armor.

    I'm using the Land Raider because I haven't had much luck with the Predator. It seems way too easily destroyable. I just converted my Predator Annihilator (w/ lascannon sidesponsons) into a rhino, which I'm not sure if I'm too happy about now, but oh well. I was never able to use more than the turret gun anyway because I kept having to move 6 inches. And then it would explode cause something would hit it in the side armor from across the board. The Land Raider of mine has never been destroyed in battle, provides some good anti-armor fire and will insure that something gets a good charge into the enemy. And I don't think I really have much to trade out because I just don't have money to buy any more models.

    I'm not sure how I feel about Land Speeders, either . . .
    "There will never be enough peace in the universe unless first there is enough war." - Farseer Eleuflin

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    Senior Member Valerian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battle-Brother Wags View Post
    The only two armies that I face (so far, at least) are Black Templar and Tau . . . who are, of course, on the extreme opposite ends of the tactical spectrum. So if I want a list to go against either/or, then I need to have a fairly all-comer savvy list. We usually roll randomly for missions . . . although it seems like we always end up playing Omega style missions so that escalation takes a big part in the mission.
    Okay, I understand where you're coming from, but let me offer a few more ideas. First, I'm going to assume that your games vs. Black Templar and Tau are friendly games, that you plan in advance with specific opponents. If that's true, then regardless of the mission played, you at least know the capabilities of your enemy, and probably the general composition of the enemy forces, based upon what models your opponents have (unless, of course y'all allow each other to proxy to excess).

    With this assumption, then I propose that you don't limit yourself to a single against all-comers list. Instead, feel free to make two lists, both strong and versatile, yet each more tailored toward each of your two primary opponents. As you stated, those two forces are on extreme ends of the spectum, when it comes to how they are going to fight.

    Against Tau, I'm going to recommend a Wolf Scout pack with two power weapons, a meltagun, and an attached Wolf Guard Leader with Powerfist using Operate Behind Enemy Lines. This unit can go right for the toughest Tau force he's got within 12" of his deployment edge.

    Then, I'd put everybody else in Drop Pods and drop right amongst him. Grey Hunters are perfect for this, so use as many as you have. Put Ragnar and 4 Terminator Bodyguard (2 with Assault Cannon and Lightning Claw, 1 with Storm Bolter and Lightning Claw, 1 with Storm Bolter and Thunderhammer) in a pod. Put a Venerable Dreadnought with Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer in a pod. Don't buy a single vehicle, as the Tau can easily shred them, and you don't need them. Use the points for lots of Grey Hunters in drop pods, and remember to give each pack a PW or PF, or both.

    For the Black Templar, the Wolf Scout pack is still useful agains any units of vehicles he might leave behind. You can leave the drop pods at home, and get yourself some vehicles. You'll want some high volume of fire weapons (assault cannon and heavy bolters), and countercharging Blood Claws with lots of Power Fists.

    Best of luck,

    Valerian

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    Valerian -

    Thanks for the thoughts. Makes alot of sense. Would you care to comment on the idea of having my usual venerable dread and two more each with assault cannons and missile launchers? I don't see the point of the DCCW when I know every one of his squads has at least 1 PF that will quickly take it out. Plus, IMO dreads don't get enough attacks to be useful in close combat . . . I mean, unless they are killing a unit that has no way of actually hurting the dreadnought itself.

    I'm still learning the tactical advantages of some of these units, so help all you can! :-)
    "There will never be enough peace in the universe unless first there is enough war." - Farseer Eleuflin

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