[1850] DH - Tourney - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    LO's Shadow Captain Lost Nemesis's Avatar
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    [1850] DH - Tourney

    Not going on 100% competitiveness here, as it isn't my style, but I am trying to get some competitive quirks in here... Let me know what you think.

    edit: See post #4.

    Last edited by Lost Nemesis; October 9th, 2006 at 17:42.

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  3. #2
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    Nice

    2 dreads and 1 rhino-MG team is exactly what I prefer when I go pure DH at 1850 or 2000. Right on.

    Good going with the mobile PG rhino squads. If I have the points, I like to take 2 in rhinos and 2 on foot. Don't change a thing. Good choice.

    I'd suggest getting my Gk squads up to 10 bodies per squad. To do so, I'd suggest dropping the AC dread. Effective choice, but you're thin on points and already have 2 dreadys.

    =I= is tooled perfectly. maybe add a retinue. plasma cannon servitor, 2 HB servitors, 2 sages, 2 mystics work well for lords. 127 points and very worth it.

    The icon of the just is probably not worth the points. I'd take sacred incense to give you an edge against chaos nasties instead.

    Unlike some, I don't have a proble mputting psycannons in my GK squads--IF I NEED TO. In your case, I'd suggest equipping one squad with 2 PC' and the other with no special weapons. Attach the GM to the second squad so it's all-the-way CC. HOlocaust somewhere in this combined unit would be great. INcinerator on the GM.

    Death cultists are probably irrelevant. Callidus is better than the vindicare. Word in your ear is one of the best abilities in the game, and you can really mess up an opponent prior to turn 1 with it. It's even worse with emp. tarot.

    My last game against nids made me decide to take a psychic hood in all games. Zoanthroped (up to 3 in a Nid army) have warp blast, which doesn't require a psychic test and puts a blast template of doom down on target if their test succeeds. Drops PAGK like flies b/c the aegis doesn't protect from it. Aegis requires that the enemy ability require a psychic test. for 20 points, you can mess up quite a few armies, and it give you another subte edge against your opponents.

    Overall, my comments are pretty minor. Just tuning and some lessons learned.

  4. #3
    LO's Shadow Captain Lost Nemesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverchargeThis! View Post
    I'd suggest getting my Gk squads up to 10 bodies per squad. To do so, I'd suggest dropping the AC dread. Effective choice, but you're thin on points and already have 2 dreadys.
    There isn't a gigantic difference between eight and ten, is there, in terms of effectiveness? I find that the Dread's AC will help with anti-tank (if needed) and with anti-Infantry, while being more than capable of handling itself in an assault. Hmm... will consider.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverchargeThis!
    =I= is tooled perfectly. maybe add a retinue. plasma cannon servitor, 2 HB servitors, 2 sages, 2 mystics work well for lords. 127 points and very worth it.
    Is it needed, though? Where will I get the points? I was just going to have this guy tag along with the one-man-short IST squad, just adding some nice firepower and giving the GK's a place to safely teleport, if they need it.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverchargeThis!
    The icon of the just is probably not worth the points. I'd take sacred incense to give you an edge against chaos nasties instead.
    No Chaos players around here, and I find that, with someone like the GM (who I'm going to be throwing into the middle of the fray), I'd rather reply on that 4+ than the 5+.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverchargeThis!
    Unlike some, I don't have a proble mputting psycannons in my GK squads--IF I NEED TO. In your case, I'd suggest equipping one squad with 2 PC' and the other with no special weapons. Attach the GM to the second squad so it's all-the-way CC. HOlocaust somewhere in this combined unit would be great. INcinerator on the GM.
    The GM will either be teleporting by himself, or will walk, probably. I'd rather keep the Psycannons split to add versatility to each squad, in case they get the chance to take a shot at a vehicle or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by OverchargeThis!
    Death cultists are probably irrelevant. Callidus is better than the vindicare. Word in your ear is one of the best abilities in the game, and you can really mess up an opponent prior to turn 1 with it. It's even worse with emp. tarot.
    I knew I'd get this. The Vindicare is probably the only thing I will refuse to change in the entire list - I just love the entire idea, whether or not he's the most effective thing I can be taking. As for the Death Cult Assassins, I find that they can be useful, and if a squad shoots at them, sure, they'll die - but the enemy just wasted a full turn of shooting at a single, relatively cheap model. Not a bad trade, plus there're few other places to spend the points.

    Thanks for the reply - will consider all points. :yes:

  5. #4
    LO's Shadow Captain Lost Nemesis's Avatar
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    Here we go:

    edit: See post #6.
    Last edited by Lost Nemesis; October 9th, 2006 at 18:32.

  6. #5
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    Overall, it's a very solid list. Just a few tweaks here in there, in my opinion, are recommended.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis View Post
    HQ

    [1] Grand Master
    +Icon of the Just
    +Master-Crafted Nemesis Force Weapon
    =195 points
    Hmmm. I would think that a GKT retinue would be here. Provided one is restrained, a moderate-sized squad of GKTs is a nice tool to have on hand. I certainly wouldn't deep strike this guy alone. Walking inside a PAGK sqaud can work, I suppose. But if you're going to footslog him a psycannon is an essential upgrade. He's got a BS of 5!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    Elites[1] Inquisitor
    +Psycannon
    +Emperor's Tarot
    +Teleport Homer
    =75 points
    The proper squads for this guy to go into are, as you note, one of the plasma IST squads. However, those aren't the right places for a TP homer. You shouldn't let those guys get into close combat. The TP homer should go on a vet sgt in the melta/Rhino squad. Those guys are likely to need help because of the targets they are hunting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    [1] Vindicare Assassin
    =110 points
    Not my favorite assassin, but you've got the right idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    [2] Death Cult Assassins
    =80 points
    I just don't think these girls are worth it in a list where you have any GKs. You could have 3 GKs (or almost two GKTs) for the points you're spending, and they would be so much more effective than any number of DCAs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    Troops

    [5] Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
    +Plasma Gun x2
    [1] Rhino
    +Extra Armour
    +Smoke Launchers
    =128 points

    [6] Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
    +Plasma Gun x2
    [1] Rhino
    +Extra Armour
    +Smoke Launchers
    =138 points
    I really think that Chimeras are better matches than Rhinos here. These are shooty squads, and the Chimera is a much deadlier tank. They support each other nicely. Of course, Chimeras are more expensive, but you can get them by dropping psycannons from your FAGK squads (see below).
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    [6] Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
    +Melta Gun x2
    [1] Rhino
    +Extra Armour
    +Smoke Launchers
    =138 points
    Good. This is the right spot for any TP homers. It's the one time that one can justify upgrading to a vet sgt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    [6] Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
    +Plasma Gun x2
    =80 points
    Unmounted ISTs should have 8+ models in them. Otherwise, with all the other ISTs around, you can indeed get away with not providing a transport here. You might consider grenade launchers here instead of plasma, actually, for the distance while marching and for the templates.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    Fast Attack

    [1] Grey Knight Justicar
    [9] Grey Knights
    +Psycannon
    =305 points

    [1] Grey Knight Justicar
    [9] Grey Knights
    +Psycannon
    =305 points
    I'm a real stickler when it comes to special weapons and GKs. I think they are almost never worth it. You are doubling the cost of your GK to hobble his close combat potential! And FAGKs should be mixing it up within a turn of landing! That means that, you may get only one turn of shooting with that psycannon -- which, by the way, can't shoot as far as the storm bolters can upon landing, or after any movement -- before you get shot at and assaulted yourself. Sacrificing a S6 NFW, a storm bolter, and True Grit is really not a good trade in this situation. Save the points for more troops or other upgrades elsewhere in your list.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    Heavy Support

    [1] Grey Knight Dreadnought
    +Twin-Linked Lascannon
    +Missile Launcher
    +Extra Armour
    +Smoke Launchers
    =148 points

    [1] Grey Knight Dreadnought
    +Twin-Linked Lascannon
    +Missile Launcher
    +Extra Armour
    +Smoke Launchers
    =148 points
    Perfection!

    I think it's worth noting that if you drop the DCAs and the FAGK psycannons, you can easily upgrade your list in one or more of the following ways. I urge you to consider them.

    * You can field 3 GK squads, each with 8+ models.
    * You can get a few IST transport upgrades.
    * You can get a retinue for either your GM or your Inquisitor.
    Last edited by number6; October 9th, 2006 at 18:12.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  7. #6
    LO's Shadow Captain Lost Nemesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by number6 View Post
    Hmmm. I would think that a GKT retinue would be here. Provided one is restrained, a moderate-sized squad of GKTs is a nice tool to have on hand. I certainly wouldn't deep strike this guy alone. Walking inside a PAGK sqaud can work, I suppose. But if you're going to footslog him a psycannon is an essential upgrade. He's got a BS of 5!
    I'm not a fan of the GKT retinue unless it's in a really big game - they just soak up so many points, and are basically a moving target. However, the Psycannon is probably a good idea. I keep on forgetting that this guy doesn't get True Grit, so the Psycannon won't take away an attack, and that BS5 will definitely be useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by number6
    The proper squads for this guy to go into are, as you note, one of the plasma IST squads. However, those aren't the right places for a TP homer. You shouldn't let those guys get into close combat. The TP homer should go on a vet sgt in the melta/Rhino squad. Those guys are likely to need help because of the targets they are hunting.
    Makes sense to me. Noted.

    Quote Originally Posted by number6
    Not my favorite assassin, but you've got the right idea.
    There are only two or three of us who actually like this guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by number6
    I just don't think these girls are worth it in a list where you have any GKs. You could have 3 GKs (or almost two GKTs) for the points you're spending, and they would be so much more effective than any number of DCAs.
    Three GK's, or almost two GKT's, but where? I have two maxxed squads, and I don't have a GKT squad, and few other things to drop for them. I could beef up the IST squads, but what for? For these two ladies to get shot down, an entire squad will have to waste an entire round of shooting to do so. For 80 points total, that's not a bad arrangement - they're cheap, and they have the potential, if nothing else, to wreak some havoc. I'm not convinced that they're not worth it, yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by number6
    I really think that Chimeras are better matches than Rhinos here. These are shooty squads, and the Chimera is a much deadlier tank. They support each other nicely. Of course, Chimeras are more expensive, but you can get them by dropping psycannons from your FAGK squads (see below).
    They are, indeed, more expensive, both in points and in money. The Rhino's aren't there for fire support - in all honesty, I have a fair amount of firepower, and I'm proud of that with this list. The Rhino's give me mobile cover (if needed) as well as two fire points to shoot out of, which isn't bad at all. I'd rather keep the squads cheap - plus, as was pointed out to me, a Rhino can survive a bolter shot to the side AV, where a Chimera might not.

    Quote Originally Posted by number6
    Good. This is the right spot for any TP homers. It's the one time that one can justify upgrading to a vet sgt.
    I definitely see your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by number6
    Unmounted ISTs should have 8+ models in them. Otherwise, with all the other ISTs around, you can indeed get away with not providing a transport here. You might consider grenade launchers here instead of plasma, actually, for the distance while marching and for the templates.
    Hmm. Think so? I kind of like the Plasma in there, simply because if any MEQs decide to rush at me, I can just throw this 6-man squad in their face and rapid fire them to death. I don't know if the shots from the grenade launchers will be as helpful... however, I do have main opponents in Tau, Eldar, and Tyranids, so maybe you're right. Point noted.

    Quote Originally Posted by number6
    I'm a real stickler when it comes to special weapons and GKs. I think they are almost never worth it. You are doubling the cost of your GK to hobble his close combat potential! And FAGKs should be mixing it up within a turn of landing! That means that, you may get only one turn of shooting with that psycannon -- which, by the way, can't shoot as far as the storm bolters can upon landing, or after any movement -- before you get shot at and assaulted yourself. Sacrificing a S6 NFW, a storm bolter, and True Grit is really not a good trade in this situation. Save the points for more troops or other upgrades elsewhere in your list.
    Hmm. I see your point here, too.

    Thanks for the suggestions - all of them are under consideration. And thanks for not telling me to drop the Vindy.

    ---------------------

    edit: Okay, revised:

    edit: See post #8.

    Thoughts? I wanted to get a Psycannon in for the GM, but I couldn't get the points. But that's okay - Storm Bolters aren't horrible. I have five points leftover, too.. what to add?
    Last edited by Lost Nemesis; October 9th, 2006 at 18:59.

  8. #7
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis View Post
    Three GK's, or almost two GKT's, but where?
    Right after I posted my response, I tacked on a quick summary edit that you may have missed. Just in case you did, here's how I thought you could get them (or other things):
    Quote Originally Posted by number6
    I think it's worth noting that if you drop the DCAs and the FAGK psycannons, you can easily upgrade your list in one or more of the following ways. I urge you to consider them.

    * You can field 3 GK squads, each with 8+ models.
    * You can get a few IST transport upgrades.
    * You can get a retinue for either your GM or your Inquisitor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    Hmm. Think so? I kind of like the Plasma in there, simply because if any MEQs decide to rush at me, I can just throw this 6-man squad in their face and rapid fire them to death. I don't know if the shots from the grenade launchers will be as helpful... however, I do have main opponents in Tau, Eldar, and Tyranids, so maybe you're right. Point noted.
    I almost never use GLs myself, prefering plasma. However, I never field as many IST squads as you are here. You've already got two squads of 'em, plus a melta squad. It might be nice to have a different weapon option on hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    And thanks for not telling me to drop the Vindy.
    Oh, he's far from being useless. But if one is expecting him to earn his points back, one would be better off with the eversor. Or maybe the callidus. Against an opponent with multiple squads, each with model upgrades (like SMs, of course), the vindicare is a great option.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    edit: Okay, revised: [...]
    Thoughts?
    Looks really good!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Nemesis
    I wanted to get a Psycannon in for the GM, but I couldn't get the points. But that's okay - Storm Bolters aren't horrible. I have five points leftover, too.. what to add?
    You can get that psycannon by dropping an IST from the 6-man plasma/Rhino squad and the Emporer's Tarot. I'd take a psycannon on a GM over the ET any day! Another way to get it would be to drop master-crafting and that IST. MCing is nice, but again, he will be spending at least a few rounds marching around. The extra firepower from the psycannon -- at BS 5, no less! -- will earn it's points back right quick I assure you.

    Also, a reminder. Your GM can't join a deep-striking squad of GKs before they teleport down. You will not want to join him with an IST squad, as the majority save will make his terminator save less useful. You should march him around near any footslogging squad. (It wouldn't be awful to set one of your FAGK squads on the table, for example.) Keep him a little behind, and your opponent will have to decide to make a LD check to target a single model that isn't a scoring unit anyway, or the squad that he's supporting.
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
    RIP Warhammer 40,000: 21 Sep 1998 - 24 May 2014

  9. #8
    LO's Shadow Captain Lost Nemesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by number6 View Post
    Right after I posted my response, I tacked on a quick summary edit that you may have missed. Just in case you did, here's how I thought you could get them (or other things):
    I saw it, don't worry. This was after I posted my own response.

    Quote Originally Posted by number6
    I almost never use GLs myself, prefering plasma. However, I never field as many IST squads as you are here. You've already got two squads of 'em, plus a melta squad. It might be nice to have a different weapon option on hand.
    Well, if the GL's were cheaper (like their IG counterparts), I would consider it.. but for the same cost, I think the Plasma Guns will be more beneficial.

    Quote Originally Posted by number6
    Oh, he's far from being useless. But if one is expecting him to earn his points back, one would be better off with the eversor. Or maybe the callidus. Against an opponent with multiple squads, each with model upgrades (like SMs, of course), the vindicare is a great option.
    Keep in mind, you're talking to a guy who never asks "will this make its points back?" but instead asks "will this be fun and cool to use?" I'll be using that Vindy to take out things that will give me problems - hidden heavy weapons, power fists, the like.

    Quote Originally Posted by number6
    You can get that psycannon by dropping an IST from the 6-man plasma/Rhino squad and the Emporer's Tarot. I'd take a psycannon on a GM over the ET any day! Another way to get it would be to drop master-crafting and that IST. MCing is nice, but again, he will be spending at least a few rounds marching around. The extra firepower from the psycannon -- at BS 5, no less! -- will earn it's points back right quick I assure you.
    Hmm. I think I'd rather have the Master-Crafting than the Emperor's Tarot - with only four attacks, I want to make every one count as much as I can when I get into CC for those couple turns.

    Quote Originally Posted by number6
    Also, a reminder. Your GM can't join a deep-striking squad of GKs before they teleport down. You will not want to join him with an IST squad, as the majority save will make his terminator save less useful. You should march him around near any footslogging squad. (It wouldn't be awful to set one of your FAGK squads on the table, for example.) Keep him a little behind, and your opponent will have to decide to make a LD check to target a single model that isn't a scoring unit anyway, or the squad that he's supporting.
    If I keep him behind a squad - such as one of the FAGK or an IST squad - it won't be an issue about taking a Leadership test to target him. As he is an IC, he can't be targetted if he isn't the closest unit to the enemy, which is a great thing.

    Thanks again for the suggestions... will revise (slightly) again here in a second.

    ------------------------

    And here we go -

    HQ

    [1] Grand Master
    +Icon of the Just
    +Master-Crafted Nemesis Force Weapon
    +Psycannon
    =225 points

    Elites

    [1] Inquisitor
    +Psycannon
    =50 points

    [1] Vindicare Assassin
    =110 points

    Troops

    [5] Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
    +Plasma Gun x2
    [1] Rhino
    +Extra Armour
    +Smoke Launchers
    =128 points

    [5] Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
    +Plasma Gun x2
    [1] Rhino
    +Extra Armour
    +Smoke Launchers
    =128 points

    [5] Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
    +Melta Gun x2
    [1] Veteran Sergeant
    +Teleport Homer
    [1] Rhino
    +Extra Armour
    +Smoke Launchers
    =148 points

    [6] Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
    +Plasma Gun x2
    =80 points

    Fast Attack

    [1] Grey Knight Justicar
    [7] Grey Knights
    =225 points

    [1] Grey Knight Justicar
    [7] Grey Knights
    =225 points

    [1] Grey Knight Justicar
    [7] Grey Knights
    =225 points

    Heavy Support

    [1] Grey Knight Dreadnought
    +Twin-Linked Lascannon
    +Missile Launcher
    +Extra Armour
    +Smoke Launchers
    =148 points

    [1] Grey Knight Dreadnought
    +Twin-Linked Lascannon
    +Missile Launcher
    +Extra Armour
    +Smoke Launchers
    =148 points

    Total Points: 1850
    Total Models: 54
    Total Vehicles: 5
    Last edited by Lost Nemesis; October 9th, 2006 at 18:58.

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