[1500] [Imperial Fists SM] Need some help - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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View Poll Results: How does the army look?

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  • Needs a little work

    6 75.00%
  • Good Start

    1 12.50%
  • Take it to the table-top!

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  1. #1
    Member fantasypisces's Avatar
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    [1500] [Imperial Fists SM] Need some help

    (UPDATED! please see next list post)
    Havn't played in around 7 years, and when I did it was Dark Eldar... Trying out an Imperial Fists space marine army. Please, fell free to rip my list apart! Cheers

    Imperial Fists
    -- Suffer Not the Works of Heretics
    -- Death before Dishonor

    HQ:
    -- Reclusiarch -- Bolt Pistol, Crozius Arcanum, Frag Grenades, Jump Pack, Melta Bombs, Rosarius, Teleport Homer
    [117 Points]

    Elites:
    -- Terminator Squad 1 serg, 4 terms
    [200]

    -- Dreadnought -- Missile Launcher, TL Lascannon
    [135]

    Troops:
    -- Tactical Squad 1 serg 9 SM 1 /w meltagun
    Rhino: extra armor
    [215]
    -- Same as above
    [215]

    -- Scout Squad -- 1 serg and 4 scouts 4/w sniper rifles 1 /w missile launcher
    [95]

    Fast:
    -- Assault Squad -- 1 serg /w term honors and powerfist, 8 SM (Chaplain will join this unit)
    [228]

    --Land Speeder Tornado
    [80]
    -- Same
    [80]

    Heavy:
    -- Predator Annihilator -- TL Lascannon and Heavy Bolter sponsoons, extra armor
    [135]

    1500 Points total on the nose!

    Looking forward to suggestions! Thank you and Cheers

    Last edited by fantasypisces; November 16th, 2006 at 19:50.

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  3. #2
    Member eater of corn's Avatar
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    Hopefully the comments aren't too harsh.

    I think you're trying to do too much without putting enough ooomph into the meat of your army list. You've got some cool stuff, but it's all over the place... as if you're trying to fit all the stuff that you've read/learned from various tactica into one list - with the T Homer & the Land Speeder Tornados with the Asscans & so on.

    I think you need to prune back some of what you are interested in doing, and focus on one or two things that you want to do on this particular list... saving the other parts for variations on a core list.

    You've probably got a lot of ideas that you're trying to put together here... and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, nor do I think that the many separate elements are bad... but it just seems all over the place to me, and not focused enough for my personal tastes.

    Quote Originally Posted by fantasypisces View Post
    Havn't played in around 7 years, and when I did it was Dark Eldar... Trying out an Imperial Fists space marine army. Please, fell free to rip my list apart! Cheers

    Imperial Fists
    -- Suffer Not the Works of Heretics
    -- Death before Dishonor

    HQ:
    -- Reclusiarch -- Bolt Pistol, Crozius Arcanum, Frag Grenades, Jump Pack, Melta Bombs, Rosarius, Teleport Homer
    [117 Points]
    He can also take Terminator Honours, which I would take for a cc HQ character. I think the setup is fine, otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by fantasypisces View Post
    Elites:
    -- Terminator Squad 1 serg, 4 terms
    [200]
    I'm not a fan of Elite-type Terminators (well, not when they're Teleporting in, anyway). A Terminator Command Squad gets you 2 non-powerfist weapons in cc, plus counts as 2 separate scoring units (IC & Retinue)... while an Elite squad seems weak in comparision.

    This squad should have 2x Asscans, just to tear stuff up.

    From a gaming perspective, I'd dump this whole squad and free up points for something more useful. That's 200 points that probably won't make their points back... even if I think Terminators are damn cool.

    The Imperial Fists character Lysander can do some sick things with Terminator deployment... so I would still try to keep Terminators in mind, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by fantasypisces View Post
    -- Dreadnought -- Missile Launcher, TL Lascannon
    [135]
    If you can spare the points for Venerable & Tank Hunter, I would try to do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by fantasypisces View Post
    Troops:
    -- Tactical Squad 1 serg 9 SM 1 /w meltagun
    Rhino
    [215]
    -- Same as above
    [215]

    -- Scout Squad -- 1 serg and 4 scouts 4/w sniper rifles 1 /w missile launcher
    [95]
    The costs seem a little odd for the Tactical Squads. I'm not sure why you're taking Rhinos except to have more armor to throw forward... but then your Tactical Squads don't seem outfitted for up-close combat (no Terminator Honours & powerfist/power weapon on the sergeants, at minimum).

    It's just an odd way to run Tactical Squads, IMO. They aren't very shooty, and they aren't really made for CC.

    The Rhinos NEED Extra Armour and Smoke Launchers.

    What about the "Suffer not the Works of Heretics" trait? Sure, it's well-suited for Devastators in the 4x Missile Launcher config... but you don't seem to use the trait at all.

    I like the Scouts, although I'd add a couple plain Scouts (Bolters, or cc/bpistol) to take the hits if someone decides to kill this squad.

    Quote Originally Posted by fantasypisces View Post
    Fast:
    -- Assault Squad -- 1 serg /w term honors and powerfist, 8 SM (Chaplain will join this unit)
    [228]
    Remember that the Assault squad is a separate scoring unit from the Chappy... so even out the numbers, try not to have an odd number of guys in the unit.

    I like Assault Marines... but again, it's a lot of points in a list that has some armor, some rolling tactical squads, a terminator squad with no heavy weapons, and then these guys with no Flamers nor Plasma Pistols.

    You're kind of losing me here with the theme... what's the ultimate goal? To get the Assault Marines up the field, and to deploy Terminators via the Teleport Homer?

    The problem is that neither the Assault Marines nor the Terminators are particularly loaded up in a threatening manner... and both this squad & the Terminator squad suck points away from the rest of the list that also seems to lack a little focus.

    Quote Originally Posted by fantasypisces View Post
    --Land Speeder Tornado
    [80]
    -- Same
    [80]
    I like these things... but then you need to buff up other parts of the list, IMO. They are good and effective... but I think other parts of your list need to be more effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by fantasypisces View Post
    Heavy:
    -- Predator Annihilator -- TL Lascannon and Heavy Bolter sponsoons

    Looking forward to suggestions! Thank you and Cheers
    I usually spend the small amount for Extra Armour & Smoke Launchers, just to get one more turn of survivability out of these guys... but the configuration of your Predator is fine.

    You'll need this guy to complement the Dreadnought, although neither is particularly heavily armoured. I would almost ditch the Land Speeders for another Predator (maybe an anti-infantry Predator Destructor with sponson Heavy Bolters for some serious dakka), just to get another tank vehicle on the board to draw fire.
    Last edited by eater of corn; November 16th, 2006 at 08:10.

  4. #3
    Member simonilicious's Avatar
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    I would consider dropping the melta bombs on the chappy, since you don't really want him to be assaulting vehicles, and if this would happen you still have the PF from the Assault squad, so I'd free up some points there.

    I played a similar force in a smaller game (1000pts) and I'm gonna have to say that as much as I love the ideas of tactical squads storming ahead in rhinos, it didnt really work for me.

    Honestly, I'd consider dropping the rhinos and making the tacts shooty. This would probably focus your army to be a bit on the shooty side though, so I wouldnt really change anything major until you've playtested your current list, so you know what works and doesn't. Maybe as an old DE player you can make those rhino's work.

    I'd seriously consider dropping the termies though, and use the points to buff up your rhino tacticals with Veteran Sergeants and Power fists, and use the remaining points to get a small shooty tactical squad, perhaps with a lascannon if you can afford it to support your dread and predator.

    Some people have had trouble getting their sniper scouts to perform to gratification. It seems you have kitted them up for some tank hunting/general troop annoyance. I'd keep them for now to see if they work.

    Hope I've been to some help and welcome to the forum.

  5. #4
    Son of LO Silver Wings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eater of corn View Post
    I'm not a fan of Elite-type Terminators (well, not when they're Teleporting in, anyway). A Terminator Command Squad gets you 2 non-powerfist weapons in cc, plus counts as 2 separate scoring units (IC & Retinue)... while an Elite squad seems weak in comparision.

    This squad should have 2x Asscans, just to tear stuff up.
    Though I whole heartedly agree on the AssCano point and the point in general, am I misreading your point on 2 seperate scoring units. IC's are not scoring units.

    I would however agree with EoC's points wholeheartedly and recomend you take his advice.
    Every time you read this sig: a fairie dies!

  6. #5
    Senior Member Sinjin's Avatar
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    Yea, Eater of Corn pretty much had it right on. Most of your army is constructed very well on a unit basis, but it put together poorly.

    There is lots of advice I could give you to make the list stronger, but like Eater said, you need to pick a focus. There are 3 or 4 good, strong directions this list could go.

    For example, you could go more shooty, drop the termies and scouts for some 5 man las/plas squads and stick the tac squads in Drop Pods along with an Assault Cannon/Heavy Flamer Dreadnought.

    You could drop the termies and scouts for another assault squad, stick the dreadnought (with assault cannon/heavy flamer) in a drop pod and go assaulty.

    You could drop the termies and scouts (notice a pattern here?) and the Rhino's, switch the melta to plasma, add some 5 man las/plas squads, and switch the assault squad to some Dev's and go shooty with a couple good mobile shooting/objective taking squads.

    All three are good directions you could take this list, and all are decent lists. So pick a direction, focus the list a little more, and I will try to give you some more specific advice.

  7. #6
    Member fantasypisces's Avatar
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    Ya the rhino's had extra armor, it was included in the points I just forgot to type it out.

    Plasma weapons have always failed me, so much overheating makes me hesitant to take them! But I could try it out.

    My general theme was that the dreadnought and predator were going to pump off shots while rhino's make their way to the enemy. If there is plenty of terrain for me to scurry around (still Dark eldar at heart), then I was going to have my assult squad go around that, or try to stay behind a rhino (both move 12"). Land Speeders there to wreck stuff up while scouts to harass the enemy. Then my ultimate goal was to have the Termies drop down heavy hitting support.

    I have an exam for a class in a little bit, but I will come back and tweak this list after. Thanks for the help everyone, mucho apreciated. I'm still just used to having to get into close combat as soon as possible I guess (wyches):wub:

    Cheers!

  8. #7
    Member fantasypisces's Avatar
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    Well here it is revised. CC specced with some anti-infantry and a couple things for anti-tank (big weapons in general)

    Imperial Fists:
    -- Suffer not the Works of Heretics
    -- Death Before Dishonor

    HQ:
    -- Reclusiarch -- Bolt pistol, Crozius Arcanum, Frag Grenades, Jump Pack, Rosarius, Terminator Honors, Bionics
    [127 Points]

    Elites:
    -- Venerable Dreadnought -- CC weapon with flamer, Assault Cannon, Extra Armor, Drop Pod
    {170]

    Troops:
    -- Tactical Squad -- Sergeant /w Bolt Pistol, Power Fist, Terminator Honors, tank hunters. 9 Marines 1 /w meltagun, all have tank hunters. Rhino /w extra armor, smoke launchers
    [278]

    -- Same except for Tank Hunters
    [248]

    -- Scout Squad sergeant and one SM with CC/pistol, 2 /w sniper rifles, 1 /w missile launcher
    [85]

    Fast:
    -- Assault Squad -- Sergeant /w Power Fist, Terminator Honors. One SM /w flamer, 8 SM
    [256]

    -- Land Speeder Tornado
    [80]

    Heavy:
    -- Predator Annihilator -- TL Lascannon, Neavy Bolter sponsoons, extra armor, smoke luanchers
    [138]

    --Predator Destructor -- Auctocannon, Heavy Bolter sponsoons, extra armor, smoke launchers
    [118]

    Total: 1500 points

    I liked the idea of the Destructor for anti-infantry so added that. Didn't want to part with scouts because I love the idea of snipers, changed them a little as suggested. The one land speeder is still there, mostly because I like land speeders, but also because I didn't know what to spend 80 points on if I got rid of him. Hopefully it will help with anti-infantry.
    Dreadnought changed to more of an assault style /w droppod. Otherwise, mostly just gave some upgrades as suggested.

    Once again, please feel free to tear it apart! :tongue:
    Cheers and thanks!

  9. #8
    Member eater of corn's Avatar
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    Whoops! ICs sure do not count as scoring. I guess I'm more used to thinking about Hive Tyrants as HQ or something...

    Back to the Imperial Fists... If you didn't have the dakka Destructor, 85 points for a Whirlwind = pure Panzee-killing gold instead of your 80pt Land Speeder... but in an army that involves tanks, I like what the dakka Destructor can do (and IMO it looks more tank-like than the Annihilator with the TL-Lascannon turret), and both the dakka Destructor & Whirlwind have similar purposes.

    The Land Speeder, like your Drop Pod Dreadnought, can be a highly disruptive influence... so it's something that I think you are wise to keep around, even if it is only one squadron. You have other threats to keep the enemy from focusing on this one Land Speeder, so it's not so naked.

    Back to Whirlwinds... that is what the Scout group also could turn into, if you wanted it to... taking those 85 pts for the Sniper Scouts and putting them into a Whirlwind or perhaps another Land Speeder if you wanted. I happen to like the concept of Snipers as well, although if push comes to shove (I am in the middle of assembling my own Space Marine army, perhaps one or two steps ahead in the buying/assembling/painting process that you are at the moment) I would dump my own Sniper Scout unit for a LS Tornado or a Whirlwind. At least the Scouts' Missile Launcher can bust a tank or two... but having only 2 Sniper Rifles does limit their ability to truly snipe a key enemy target/force armour saves. I have mixed feelings about this squad.

    Tank-Hunters... the issue that I have with your use of Tank-Hunters is that you already have a Melta weapon on that crew, mounted in a Rhino, so you may likely get very little use out of Tank-Hunters compared to a Las/Plas team. Also, you have limits to your long-ranged anti-tank... such that I might even want to put Hunter-Killer Missiles (as bad & limited as they are) onto things such as the humble Rhino or the dakka Destructor just to have one more thing that can potentially threaten heavy enemy armor. Maybe HK missiles are heresy in Space Marine armies with the "low-cost" Lascannons... but they can be nasty surprises for Imperial Guard, and Seeker Missiles can be nasty sneaky Tau things. However, having the Trait & the associated Disadvantage, and not using the Trait - this also might irk me, even if Imperial Fists are a good army.

    Some people may not like 10-man Tactical squads... I like the fluff-y part of that being more standard, Codex Astartes-type of deployment rather than a minimized 6-man tank busting crew... and if you're throwing them forward into assault anyway, the 10-man squad is good (although a Vet squad or Scout squad with cc/bolt pistol might do better in assault). You can potentially scavenge points by cutting the Tactical squads down to 8-man teams, however... but I would drop Tank Hunters before I scavenged from the Tactical Squads, myself.

    Anyway, the revision looks far more promising & playable than the first go... and I'd be comfortable to start collecting units going by the general lines of that revised list.

    EDIT: One last concern... numbers of troops. I like the choices in general, but you may not have enough boots on the ground. If you play with the list and it seems too light on the table, then I would probably do away with the Venerable Dreadnought and try to take another squad of Marines or Scouts.
    Last edited by eater of corn; November 17th, 2006 at 21:48.

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