The Return of the Fall of Ratlings?

[Kahoolin]

I always hesitate to make counts-as ratlings, because they have such low leadership. Why would a guardsman become a wuss just because he has a sniper rifle? Especially when he's as brave as the next man if he happens to be in a special weapon squad...

I think it would be cool if you could somehow model them as conscripted women and children like the Soviets used in WWII, to explain their cowardice.

Meh, it's not a big deal I guess, but it bugs me.

[Ravendove]

Why would a guardsman become a wuss just because he has a sniper rifle? Especially when he's as brave as the next man if he happens to be in a special weapon squad...

I think you're missing the point. Ratlings are not guardsmen with sniper rifles. Ratlings are... well, Ratlings. They are a different race of people altogether, like Ogryns.

[Kahoolin]

I think you're missing the point. Ratlings are not guardsmen with sniper rifles. Ratlings are... well, Ratlings. They are a different race of people altogether, like Ogryns.

I'm talking about counts as - some people use guardsmen models to represent ratlings. That seems a bit weird to me.

[stayscrunchyinmilk]

Ratlings also have a better BS - more hits. and point per MC shot they're far superior to the sniper squads, even without stealth or infiltrate. (Their poor, poor toughness means they truly need that cover save though.)

The real question is - Do you want them taking elite slots?

[muukip]

The elite slots aren't particularly busy to be fair. Not like fast attack or heavy support.

[Ravendove]

I'm talking about counts as - some people use guardsmen models to represent ratlings. That seems a bit weird to me.

Aha. That'll teach me to read your whole post next time.

[Mastershake]

A few points to consider-

Infiltrate- who cares? i mean really you aren't starting these guys any closer to the enemy anyways and if you are can I please draw you in a tournament?

+1 to cover saves- I think the fact that these guys are ties for the lowest toughness in the game has escaped people, you absord so many more extra wounds that the +1 cover save barely breaks even. This is all besides the fact that each new arm book is getting more and more "no cover saves" pieces of equipment. one hit from a Incindiery Whirlwind shot and these guys are out like a fat kid in dodgeball, not to mention the 3 or 4 pieces of ordinance in our own book that'll do the same thing

Sniper rifles in general simply aren't worth it. With only a respectable BS and still needing 4's to wound even other guardsmen, which will get their save unless you roll a 6, heavy bolters or autocannons are a far better bet and a good bit cheaper.

And of course you have the catastrophic leadership. Unless a commisar is nearby these guys are gone if your opponent looks at them funny.

They simply aren't worth their rather high price tag, when you could get 1 of the 5 available heavy weapon teams from your infantry platoons for much less points who would also be scoring.

[Liffrea]

Never used them, never will. I think the whole ab-human thing is just a relic GW can't bring themselves to kill stone dead, you got rid of beastmen you can do it....

Second sniper rifles just aren't that good, certainly not worth taking an elite slot for.

[Zealous Templar]

Infiltrate lets them deploy after the enemy has doesn't it? They get to pick their killing ground.

+1 to cover saves is better than nothing. They are only going to suffer if your enemy dedicates something to deal with them for good.

If sniper rifles aren't good and the unit is so overpriced won't that make them a low priority target unless playing Annihilation. Might make your enemy do silly things like waste resources on them or ignore them and run the risk of them doing something heroic.

They wound everything on 4's don't they? Good for stuff which lasguns can't hurt maybe.

Catastrophic leadership haha I like that description. But seriously if you relied on not-being-seen to keep you alive (Monty Python style ) and then suddenly someone can see you then you aren't going to stick around.
^ Thats how I'd explain worse Ld than regular Guardsmen. Once their firing position is compromised they wouldn't hang around.

As always, its really each to their own. I don't play to win the whole time so I just enjoy the diversity of weapons available to Imperial Guard compared to my Black Templars.

[Ravendove]

Second sniper rifles just aren't that good, certainly not worth taking an elite slot for.

Sniper rifles are just very specialised. Against things like Nurgle princes, any Tyranid list, C'Tan and so on, they really earn their worth.