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H0urg1ass · January 13th, 2004, 06:39

I was bored yesterday and I was going through my IG codex and I began to realize just how duped the IG are with their new codex. Now, the doctrines aside, which are a great Idea and I love them, many of the IG units are just not worth their points in the least.

1) Ogryn. After the new TVR were established in my area as the new rules set, my Ogryn have been removed from the game. You mean they get out of the Chimera and STAND THERE with their pathetic 5+ armor save before they either get charged and slaughtered or maybe are able to charge next turn? When they revised the codex, this should have been on their minds. A 25 point model (The same cost as a Daemonhunter SM, mind you) deserves one of two things IMO: Either TO 5, so that it doesn't get wounded as much, OR a better save of at LEAST 4+. One of the two will make them playable again in my book. "Yes, but they have three wounds per model" I hear someone saying. You are correct, but when you don't even get a save against a regular SM bolter, those wounds are going to disappear fast. Oh yeah, don't even think about CC with them. Everything in the game as initiative on them, and they are going to take many wounds before they even get a chance to hit. As of now, they collect dust on my shelf.

2) Commissars. Waitaminute. These guys are the same price that they were in the old codex with the added bonus that you lose one attack.... Ummmm, wait. That's not a bonus. It makes a sucky (stat wise) model, even suckier. Don't want to execute your officers? Make them independant for the cost of (more than) a Terminator. Oh wait. A terminator already comes with two decent weapons and the best non-character save in the game. Heck, even if you tool them up for around 120+ points, they still have too low of a ST to instakill anything but another IG character and their weak TO means that a multilaser can kill them dead in one shot. My two Commissars are also gathering dust on my shelf.

3) Sanctioned Psykers. Ok ok, so they're only 12 points per psyker. But for WHAT? 3 of the 6 powers are pretty much useless on a regular basis. Their stats are worse than a normal guardsman and their three decent power still aren't all that great. How about one GOOD psychic power like the rest of the psykers in the 40k universe? That would be nice. Oh yeah, I consider powers 1, 3 and 5 to be the mostly useless ones. Well, the model sure is a nice one. Too bad it's sitting on my shelf beside my Commissars and Ogryn.

4) Priests. 40 points!?! Let me say it again. 40 points!??!?!?!? Are you KIDDING us? This guy isn't worth 30 points! Yay, he gives the unit that charges +1 attack. Oh waitaminute, these are GUARDSMEN. Their CC attacks are darn near useless against anything other than other guardsmen or firewarriors for heavens sake! So he might be useful if tossed in with a tooled up HQ Squad or Ogryn? Well, FOA, if you are using your HQ as assault instead of the great support unit that it is, then pack up your IG and sell them to me. Secondly you would have to buy at least six of them for your command and infantry squads before you can assign one where you want it. At 40 points a pop? Forget putting them with Ogryn. Well, at least they'll keep my Ogryn company on the shelf with the dust.

5) Techpriest Enginseers. Ok, here's another double take. 45 points for WHAT?!?! You mean, I just payed 45 points for a guy with guardsman stats who can fix a broken vehicle (on the off chance that it isn't just destroyed anyways) on a roll of a 6?!? Oh yeah, I can make his roll better by paying 40 more points for technical servitors. Now i've got a guy who's costing me 85 points on the off chance that I need to repair a vehicle. And if you really want him to be able to repair any vehicle, then you have to keep all of your vehicles close together so he can be near enough to help. Oh wait, it gets worse: He has to START the turn in contact with said vehicle, so unless you just keep him touching your precious Leman Russ, then the tank is going to be outta the game for two turns. Lessee, 2 out of 6 is 1/3. I hope it doesn't get damaged in turn 4. Cool model. He'll certainly have good times talking to the Commissar on the shelf.

6) Leman Russ Exterminator. Ok, here's some great logic for you: You are revising an army list and you have just written your trial vehicle rules. The new trial vehicle rules allow you to move and shoot one main weapon and all of your defensive weapons. Now, you have a tank in a certain list that is only armed with one main weapon and three defensive weapons; making it one of the most useful tanks in the game. So you remove the tank from the army list! Yes, that's the spirit! Make something more useful to us poor IG players and then REMOVE it! Yay!

Well, I make think of a couple more things to rant about later and I'm probably going to write another one detailing the great things to come out of the new codex, but for tonight I'm in a bad mood and feel like ranting.

I only wish GW would quit giving us these freaking cool models with such great potential that are just a useless points drain as far as game value goes. Out of all of these, fix the Ogryn for heavens sake. I don't care about the rest of the models, I just want my Ogryn to not suck. Psssst! GW, make them TO 5/4! Even that's better than nothing.

VonBloodbath · January 13th, 2004, 08:54

Re: The Commisar...he does now, however, increase the Ld of the Officer he is with by 1, which helps. I like Commisars, and the idea of them executing my officers...it just fits with 40K, to my mind, so I play exclusively with Junior Officers with very little kit. The Commisars are the real leaders in my army.

VB.

VonBloodbath · January 13th, 2004, 08:58

Also, I'm a little confused about your gripe about Ogryns in relation to the TVR?...

You complain that they can't assault when they disembark, but then subsequently you say never to put them in CC? If you use your Ogryns to shoot at close range, then TVR doesn't impact negatively on you at all?...

VB

VonBloodbath · January 13th, 2004, 09:02

I agree with you about priests, purely because you should be able to makee THEM independant, not commisars. Putting Priests in HQ Units is just dumb, IMHO.

But the sanctioned Psyker, I have no problem with. He's meant to be naff...he's just a weak willed human, and in terms of game balance, he is only 12 points. He's not meant to win any games for you, he's there to add character to the army, and maybe, every now and then, he'll be useful.

As far as the Exterminator, I don't miss it, never had one. My Demolisher is now, however, armed exclusively with heavy bolters (in addition to the Dem Cannon, natch).

VB/

H0urg1ass · January 13th, 2004, 15:19

VB:

My only gripe with the sanctioned psykers is that their psyker powers are random and a few of them are just a little too specific to be useful in every game. I would pay more for a psyker that had one stable, good power. Also, In my army list, there isn't much room at all for 12 points of fluff, I can just barely fit the stuff in my list that I need.

I really used to like my Ogryn until I began noticing a trend with them. I would pull up charge the enemy and they would all be dead within two rounds of CC. Yeah, I would take a few of them with me, but having a 230+ point unit wiped out in two rounds of CC every time started irritating me. I soon realized that it was because I was paying the points for a DH space marine, but I was only getting a slightly better guardsman. Yeah, it has three wounds, but so do three guardsmen and I only pay 18 points for them. Not to mention with three guardsmen, insta kill isn't really an issue, but with Ogryn you have to hide them from everything powerful.

Ok, I've had to repeat this one a million times and people still think that it works, but it doesn't. If you read the commissar entry very very closely after taking all of your ADD medicine, then you'll notice that the commissar only gives +1 LD to an officer for the unit that the commissar is IN. This means that FIVE guys have a LD of officer+1, NOT anyone else. Yay, five guardsmen.

Oh yeah, the demolisher rules. I love that tank, but I'm also bitter that I've lost a potentially very good tank just when it becomes a very good tank.

Phreedh · January 13th, 2004, 17:20

Hourglass, check the FAQ... it says that the commissar's leadership bonus apply to the leadership special rule of an officer. The full answer is "Yes, he focuses the officer's mind nicely".

(It's by the end of page 6, btw)

/Phreedh

VonBloodbath · January 13th, 2004, 19:30

Yeah, the bonus LD is passed down...sadly Iron Discipline is not.

As far as Ogryns though...would it be fair to say that they haven't actually been made worse; the problems were already there?

VB/

VonBloodbath · January 13th, 2004, 19:33

I will add though, as a negative point, that I am unconvinced by the worth of many Doctrines...for example, Sharpshooter: seems great, but actually you are far better off buying more units, rather than upgrading the units you have.

Iron Discipline, however, ,kicks the llama's a$$.

VB.

th0r · January 13th, 2004, 20:05

Everytime I look at Preists...I just shake my head and move on. I see no real advantage to them ( get to re-roll hits when they charge, course you have to put them in squads attending to the advisor rule ), and they have no armour save..unlike SM chaplains and like every other psyker in the game, who get a 4+(i).

Commissars im alittle mixed about. I love them for their fluff, and adding some CC power... ( 5pts for a PW ). Also the execution fits real well with how the Imperium works ( although executing my Colonel is gay ). Theres no point in taking a powerfist as said above since you won't be able to instant kill anything..just wound on a 2+. I personally use 2 in my army... The advisor rule is what really brings them down ( can't give them to my only CC Veteran unit ).

Psykers are a joke. I would rather get 2 Guardsmen.

I too, question many doctrines. For instance I have no idea why I would want to trade in a heavy weapon for a sniper rifle ( light infantry ). Alot of the doctrines are right expensive to, such as carapace armor, hardend fighters ( only good on already overpriced sentinels ).

Speaking of...Sentinels are to expensive ( pts wise..although 70$ for 3 Catachan Sen is expensive to. Or I pay 28$ for a single Cadian Sentinel ).

Liek · January 14th, 2004, 00:22

The Guard has not been "destroyed." They still have the Leman Russ Battle Tank and the most versatile troops in the game.

Sure, the new elites aren't that great. The Priest, Psyker, and Techpriest are pretty pathetic. Here's a solution: don't use them. You never used them before the new codex, so why use them now?

The Ogryns... they made them better. Less points, higher strength, higher Leadership (with aid of a Bone 'ead) and access to a Commisar and other crazy options. So Bolters hurt... they hurt lots of stuff. Just use terrain, or a transport, to protect them. They hold up in assault against everything but Power Armor. Just use the Battle Cannon there...

And don't like TVR? Simple solution: don't play it. I don't. Makes the game less fun.

January 13th, 2004, 06:39	#1 (permalink)
H0urg1ass Son of LO Join Date: Jul 2003 Age: 31 Posts: 2,091 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 89	<a onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview ('/outgoing/http_d1_openx_org_ck_php_n_a83f474f_amp_cb_46587945173');" rel='nofollow' href='http://d1.openx.org/ck.php?n=a83f474f&cb=46587945173' target='_blank'><img src='http://d1.openx.org/avw.php?zoneid=22572&cb=46587945173&n=a83f474f' border='0' alt='' /></a> I was bored yesterday and I was going through my IG codex and I began to realize just how duped the IG are with their new codex. Now, the doctrines aside, which are a great Idea and I love them, many of the IG units are just not worth their points in the least. 1) Ogryn. After the new TVR were established in my area as the new rules set, my Ogryn have been removed from the game. You mean they get out of the Chimera and STAND THERE with their pathetic 5+ armor save before they either get charged and slaughtered or maybe are able to charge next turn? When they revised the codex, this should have been on their minds. A 25 point model (The same cost as a Daemonhunter SM, mind you) deserves one of two things IMO: Either TO 5, so that it doesn't get wounded as much, OR a better save of at LEAST 4+. One of the two will make them playable again in my book. "Yes, but they have three wounds per model" I hear someone saying. You are correct, but when you don't even get a save against a regular SM bolter, those wounds are going to disappear fast. Oh yeah, don't even think about CC with them. Everything in the game as initiative on them, and they are going to take many wounds before they even get a chance to hit. As of now, they collect dust on my shelf. 2) Commissars. Waitaminute. These guys are the same price that they were in the old codex with the added bonus that you lose one attack.... Ummmm, wait. That's not a bonus. It makes a sucky (stat wise) model, even suckier. Don't want to execute your officers? Make them independant for the cost of (more than) a Terminator. Oh wait. A terminator already comes with two decent weapons and the best non-character save in the game. Heck, even if you tool them up for around 120+ points, they still have too low of a ST to instakill anything but another IG character and their weak TO means that a multilaser can kill them dead in one shot. My two Commissars are also gathering dust on my shelf. 3) Sanctioned Psykers. Ok ok, so they're only 12 points per psyker. But for WHAT? 3 of the 6 powers are pretty much useless on a regular basis. Their stats are worse than a normal guardsman and their three decent power still aren't all that great. How about one GOOD psychic power like the rest of the psykers in the 40k universe? That would be nice. Oh yeah, I consider powers 1, 3 and 5 to be the mostly useless ones. Well, the model sure is a nice one. Too bad it's sitting on my shelf beside my Commissars and Ogryn. 4) Priests. 40 points!?! Let me say it again. 40 points!??!?!?!? Are you KIDDING us? This guy isn't worth 30 points! Yay, he gives the unit that charges +1 attack. Oh waitaminute, these are GUARDSMEN. Their CC attacks are darn near useless against anything other than other guardsmen or firewarriors for heavens sake! So he might be useful if tossed in with a tooled up HQ Squad or Ogryn? Well, FOA, if you are using your HQ as assault instead of the great support unit that it is, then pack up your IG and sell them to me. Secondly you would have to buy at least six of them for your command and infantry squads before you can assign one where you want it. At 40 points a pop? Forget putting them with Ogryn. Well, at least they'll keep my Ogryn company on the shelf with the dust. 5) Techpriest Enginseers. Ok, here's another double take. 45 points for WHAT?!?! You mean, I just payed 45 points for a guy with guardsman stats who can fix a broken vehicle (on the off chance that it isn't just destroyed anyways) on a roll of a 6?!? Oh yeah, I can make his roll better by paying 40 more points for technical servitors. Now i've got a guy who's costing me 85 points on the off chance that I need to repair a vehicle. And if you really want him to be able to repair any vehicle, then you have to keep all of your vehicles close together so he can be near enough to help. Oh wait, it gets worse: He has to START the turn in contact with said vehicle, so unless you just keep him touching your precious Leman Russ, then the tank is going to be outta the game for two turns. Lessee, 2 out of 6 is 1/3. I hope it doesn't get damaged in turn 4. Cool model. He'll certainly have good times talking to the Commissar on the shelf. 6) Leman Russ Exterminator. Ok, here's some great logic for you: You are revising an army list and you have just written your trial vehicle rules. The new trial vehicle rules allow you to move and shoot one main weapon and all of your defensive weapons. Now, you have a tank in a certain list that is only armed with one main weapon and three defensive weapons; making it one of the most useful tanks in the game. So you remove the tank from the army list! Yes, that's the spirit! Make something more useful to us poor IG players and then REMOVE it! Yay! Well, I make think of a couple more things to rant about later and I'm probably going to write another one detailing the great things to come out of the new codex, but for tonight I'm in a bad mood and feel like ranting. I only wish GW would quit giving us these freaking cool models with such great potential that are just a useless points drain as far as game value goes. Out of all of these, fix the Ogryn for heavens sake. I don't care about the rest of the models, I just want my Ogryn to not suck. Psssst! GW, make them TO 5/4! Even that's better than nothing.

January 13th, 2004, 20:05	#9 (permalink)
th0r LO Zealot Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 1,078 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 77	Everytime I look at Preists...I just shake my head and move on. I see no real advantage to them ( get to re-roll hits when they charge, course you have to put them in squads attending to the advisor rule ), and they have no armour save..unlike SM chaplains and like every other psyker in the game, who get a 4+(i). Commissars im alittle mixed about. I love them for their fluff, and adding some CC power... ( 5pts for a PW ). Also the execution fits real well with how the Imperium works ( although executing my Colonel is gay ). Theres no point in taking a powerfist as said above since you won't be able to instant kill anything..just wound on a 2+. I personally use 2 in my army... The advisor rule is what really brings them down ( can't give them to my only CC Veteran unit ). Psykers are a joke. I would rather get 2 Guardsmen. I too, question many doctrines. For instance I have no idea why I would want to trade in a heavy weapon for a sniper rifle ( light infantry ). Alot of the doctrines are right expensive to, such as carapace armor, hardend fighters ( only good on already overpriced sentinels ). Speaking of...Sentinels are to expensive ( pts wise..although 70$ for 3 Catachan Sen is expensive to. Or I pay 28$ for a single Cadian Sentinel ). __________________ Current Armies- Slaanesh (CSM) Daemonhunters Empire High Elves (BloodBowl) Warseer Blood Bowl League

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January 13th, 2004, 08:54	#2 (permalink)
VonBloodbath Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Edinburgh, UK. Posts: 41 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 71	Re: The Commisar...he does now, however, increase the Ld of the Officer he is with by 1, which helps. I like Commisars, and the idea of them executing my officers...it just fits with 40K, to my mind, so I play exclusively with Junior Officers with very little kit. The Commisars are the real leaders in my army. VB.

January 13th, 2004, 08:58	#3 (permalink)
VonBloodbath Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Edinburgh, UK. Posts: 41 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 71	Also, I'm a little confused about your gripe about Ogryns in relation to the TVR?... You complain that they can't assault when they disembark, but then subsequently you say never to put them in CC? If you use your Ogryns to shoot at close range, then TVR doesn't impact negatively on you at all?... VB

January 13th, 2004, 09:02	#4 (permalink)
VonBloodbath Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Edinburgh, UK. Posts: 41 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 71	I agree with you about priests, purely because you should be able to makee THEM independant, not commisars. Putting Priests in HQ Units is just dumb, IMHO. But the sanctioned Psyker, I have no problem with. He's meant to be naff...he's just a weak willed human, and in terms of game balance, he is only 12 points. He's not meant to win any games for you, he's there to add character to the army, and maybe, every now and then, he'll be useful. As far as the Exterminator, I don't miss it, never had one. My Demolisher is now, however, armed exclusively with heavy bolters (in addition to the Dem Cannon, natch). VB/

January 13th, 2004, 15:19	#5 (permalink)
H0urg1ass Son of LO Join Date: Jul 2003 Age: 31 Posts: 2,091 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 89	VB: My only gripe with the sanctioned psykers is that their psyker powers are random and a few of them are just a little too specific to be useful in every game. I would pay more for a psyker that had one stable, good power. Also, In my army list, there isn't much room at all for 12 points of fluff, I can just barely fit the stuff in my list that I need. I really used to like my Ogryn until I began noticing a trend with them. I would pull up charge the enemy and they would all be dead within two rounds of CC. Yeah, I would take a few of them with me, but having a 230+ point unit wiped out in two rounds of CC every time started irritating me. I soon realized that it was because I was paying the points for a DH space marine, but I was only getting a slightly better guardsman. Yeah, it has three wounds, but so do three guardsmen and I only pay 18 points for them. Not to mention with three guardsmen, insta kill isn't really an issue, but with Ogryn you have to hide them from everything powerful. Ok, I've had to repeat this one a million times and people still think that it works, but it doesn't. If you read the commissar entry very very closely after taking all of your ADD medicine, then you'll notice that the commissar only gives +1 LD to an officer for the unit that the commissar is IN. This means that FIVE guys have a LD of officer+1, NOT anyone else. Yay, five guardsmen. Oh yeah, the demolisher rules. I love that tank, but I'm also bitter that I've lost a potentially very good tank just when it becomes a very good tank.

January 13th, 2004, 17:20	#6 (permalink)
Phreedh Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 91 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 74	Hourglass, check the FAQ... it says that the commissar's leadership bonus apply to the leadership special rule of an officer. The full answer is "Yes, he focuses the officer's mind nicely". (It's by the end of page 6, btw) /Phreedh

January 13th, 2004, 19:30	#7 (permalink)
VonBloodbath Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Edinburgh, UK. Posts: 41 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 71	Yeah, the bonus LD is passed down...sadly Iron Discipline is not. As far as Ogryns though...would it be fair to say that they haven't actually been made worse; the problems were already there? VB/

January 13th, 2004, 19:33	#8 (permalink)
VonBloodbath Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Edinburgh, UK. Posts: 41 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 71	I will add though, as a negative point, that I am unconvinced by the worth of many Doctrines...for example, Sharpshooter: seems great, but actually you are far better off buying more units, rather than upgrading the units you have. Iron Discipline, however, ,kicks the llama's a$$. VB.

January 14th, 2004, 00:22	#10 (permalink)
Liek Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 374 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Rep Power: 79	The Guard has not been "destroyed." They still have the Leman Russ Battle Tank and the most versatile troops in the game. Sure, the new elites aren't that great. The Priest, Psyker, and Techpriest are pretty pathetic. Here's a solution: don't use them. You never used them before the new codex, so why use them now? The Ogryns... they made them better. Less points, higher strength, higher Leadership (with aid of a Bone 'ead) and access to a Commisar and other crazy options. So Bolters hurt... they hurt lots of stuff. Just use terrain, or a transport, to protect them. They hold up in assault against everything but Power Armor. Just use the Battle Cannon there... And don't like TVR? Simple solution: don't play it. I don't. Makes the game less fun.