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I'm building a 2250 list using an Old Blood, 2 Scar-vets (BsB and JSoD), and 1 Skink Priest. The list I'm playing around with has 7 dispell dice and 2 Dispell scrolls. Is that over-kill?
I'm new to fantasy and not really into alot of magic casting yet, but chose Lizards because I can easily switch to a magic heavy army if I want to later. 2 of the guys I play with are VERY heavy into magic and I want to be able to counter them.
Colonel Brennen Ironfist
Imperial Guard Commander
I find people overrate antimagic, especially now magic offense has taken a nerfing in 7th ed. I dont play Lizardmen, but in my Tomb King list at 2K i run with just 5 Dispel Dice and it does fine.
My Beasts list im testing has 4 dice and 2 scrolls.
7 dice and 2 scrolls is probably overkill, unless you are facing a Tzeench or Slann list.
it's best to overkill in magic defense, the two scrolls are a good solid defense against most armies. the 7 dispel dice i think would do you mighty fine against those players with magic heavy lists. any more than that is definitely overkill.
the JSoD would do great when pitched against weaker Shamans/Magic users, but not magic users like Vampires,Tomb Kings, Slann etc. otherwise it would be a waste even if you had knocked off a couple of wounds.
you could drop a spawning on one of your units to spend elsewhere in your list.
In 2000 Points I run 6 Dispell Dice a Scroll & a Cube Of Darkness. I give my Slaan the Diadem of Power so I can bump up my power dice, or if I come up against a heavy Magic army I can get 8 Dispell Dice.
The Cube is a brilliant item as the first 2 turns of Magic are generally the most vital. If you can completly knock out one of those then you're doing well!
Well, if you're up against some extremely magic heavy armies I would say you're on the right track. For scrolls I work on a rule of thumb of at least one scroll per full thousand points, and if you want to replace one with a cube of darkness that wouldn't be a bad idea. For a nasty (but expensive) trick, try putting mark of the old ones on your skink priest for an almost guaranteed first phase shut down (note: this tactic was borrowed off of someone else on this forum, i just cant seem to find the original post to give proper credit ).
For dispel dice I would recommend you try and find room for a mark of tepok for one unit or character to bump you up to eight, and I'll try to explain my reasoning for this. If you are trying to stop a spell with reasonable success then you will likely want to roll one dice more than your opponent rolled to cast said spell. The majority of standard spells require around three dice to be rolled for a reasonable rate of success, so you will likely be rolling four to try and stop it, meaning (with eight dice) you can stop around two spells per turn. Anything that requires more dice to stop, (ie a casting value of 10-12), will only come around every so often because of how difficult it is for your opponent to get off, and you can always use a scroll to stop it if necessary.
8 dispel dice! AND 2 scrolls?? seriously... am i doing something wrong? or just incredibly right?
As i said, antimagic is seriously over rated. If you face dwaves or khorne... you have loads of points wasted in a useless thing, any any offensive magic you have will be easily negated.
Average army, your looking at facing 2 Lvl 2 mages, thats 4 spells, with 6 power dice. Ok so thats prbably a bad assumption, but still:
1- they (generally) need to roll for spells. say 1/4 from the above example is generally useless.
2- that leaves 3 spells. One probably has a high (9+) casting value, so 3 dice to be used on that, then 2 and 1 on the other spells, or just 3 on a second spell.
3- one spell, say fireball, its OK to let it go! surprisingly enough, leting some magic through is ok. Infact it can even be helpful. Save your dice for high casting spells, or key movement spells, etc
4- Use scroll(s) to stop huge rolls (3 5s and a 6 say), to counter any surprises the enemy has for you, or again to stop uber key spells dead.
5- Allow for the possibility that one spell wont be cast (this is often hugely overlooked)
Someone who uses 8 Ddice and 2-4 scrolls... a quick post would be appreciated, explain just how you use that defense. I want to see what im missing out on...
Ok, well I guess I should defend my post. First off I should say that for the majority of games I totally agree with deciever. Two scrolls and eight dispel dice against most armies will be overkill. Personally I don't know if I've ever used more than six or seven dispel dice and two scrolls, but in this case, Brennen stated that two of the guys he plays with are VERY magic heavy, so in I kept that in mind when making a suggestion. Now I'm not sure what Brennen believes to be VERY magic heavy, but in my mind it falls somewhere in the area of a TK army with two Liche Priests, a Tomb Prince, a High Liche Priests and two bound spells. Now if you're up against something like that fairly often, you will want to stack up on anti-magic.
While I agree that for the most part letting a measly fireball go through is fine if it means that you are able to stop something more dangerous later, let's consider that for a second. For lizardmen it is fairly cheap and easy to get dispel dice, the spawning of tepok on saurus characters and saurus units is super easy, and even throwing in a diadem of power can get the DD count up. Now let's say someone throws in the extra dispel dice using the spawning of tepok, and using that dice is at just one point in the game able to stop that measly fireball when he wouldn't have otherwise. That fireball will cause an average of 3.5 hits and against, lets say, a kroxigor, that will approximately translate to one wound, which is worth about a third of the kroxigor's points. Anyone who has the army book will see that the extra DD will have already basically paid for itself with just that simple case. Now imagine if that one dice makes you able to stop a power level 4 staff of ravening being used on a skink regiment, which will kill an average of 6 skinks on the high side, again more than paying for itself. Or if you stop a conflagration of doom, a level three invocation of nehek, or the lizzie-dreaded pit of shades, all of which a VERY magic heavy army should be able to get off with assured regularity. The amount of damage and tactical benefit that magic can bring to the table is really off the charts, and if you know that you are coming up against a lot of it on a regular basis it would be foolish not to be ready for it.
I hope that this helps clear up the reasoning behind what I posted earlier.
3 dispell dice and 2 scrolls is enough, I like 4 for the extra security. I think cheap, fighty characters are the way to go in 7th ed. I let most things go when I play someone but will admit I am too stingy on my scroll usage. The only time magic hurt me in a tourney was in a game against TK and he rolled 2 6s to revive the 5 TG he had and I couldn't stop it on 3 dice. Magic is not a game winner unless you get very lucky.
2009 Tourny records (W-L-D) (20-4-4):
9/56, 1/12, 2/14, 4/14, 32/82, 1/6, 16/72
The only armies I play regularly are Orcs and Goblins, High Elves, Empire and Brettonians and none of them use much magic and all their mages are easy to kill (T3 everywhere ). But if you are less fortunate in your opponants you may want to get more anti magic then I do (which is one BSo Tepok). I would say that one skink priest with the diadem or 2 scrolls as well as a Bso Tepok would be sufficient against all but the hardest magic armies (TK, Tzeench or other lizardmen). IMO just killing the wizards is far more effective then trying to block all the spells. And if your in a tourny you will probably come across a mix of armes with some having no offensive magic and the rest having 3 or more wizards so if you spend lots on anti magic, you are effectively playing half your games with 200 pts less then your opponant.
As mentioned by myself, and others the Diadem of Power is a brilliant magic item. My army has 3 wizards (4th Gen Slaan & 2 Skink Priests) which, if I come up against a non-magic heavy army, will dominate in that phase and I can use the Diadem to get 12 Power Dice. Now with a lot of experience from playing GT standard players, you will generally fight either this totally non-magic army that relies on other aspects, or an army that will include 4 wizards.
For example, one of the armies I faced was an Empire army I wrote which included 4 units of Handgunners with Hocklands (for killing little wizards), 2 Great Cannons, 2 Steam Tanks and 4 wizards. 2 of the wizards had Dispell Scrolls while another had a bound spell and another the Rod of Power which is kinda like the Diadem, but you can get 3 power/ dispell dice if it works.
This sort of army works by making you come to it, shooting you all the way and then hitting what's left of your army with 2 terror causing, many S6 impact hit giving, unbreakable 1+ armour save steam tanks. It could have up to 15 Power Dice and cause all kinds of magic trouble, hence why I now consider 8 Dispell Dice and 2 scrolls by no means overkill. If you ever goto a large tournament, don't be surprised to see this kind of army.