Tough 2cd Gen Question - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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    Tough 2cd Gen Question

    Ok, put your lawyer hats on.

    Question: Do you need to reach the casting value of a spell with a second generation slaan before adding the extra die granted by the fact you are a second generation slaan?

    Don't jump the gun on this one. I know how it is currently played. Consider this:

    Puts on his laywer hat again". I warned you about not asking rules interpretation questions to a lawyer

    The question is best framed, "What does it mean to cast a spell"/

    Page 107 of the rulebook refers first to "To cast a spell, the wizard nomininates. . . . " at this point the act of casting appears to be before results. Thus, you might then refer to a "successful cast" when you throw the casting value. However, if we get into a conflict remember the "To" which can mean the first part of a process.

    But just thereafter in the other column, it clearly says that if you reach the value you are cast and if you do not reach the value you are not cast. That seems fairly bright lined to me. Likewise, two paragraphs later it refers to a "casting attempt". It seems clear when a spell is cast and when it is merely an attempt.

    The wording in the lizardman book says " Every spell cast". Now if it said "every spell the lizardman casts", which like "to cast" could indicate the first part of a process, versus just "cast" (past tense action already occured) you would have a much clearer result.

    Go further "Every spell cast (past tense) by the slaan may have an extra dice added after the dice have been rolled". You roll the dice clearly to cast. If you reach the casting value you are considered cast. If not, you are not cast. Page 107 makes a very bright line test. Only AFTER this determination (you already rolled the dice) is made, you decide whether or not to add a die.

    It is quite reasonable, though I do not think this was the intention, to read that the Slaan must be beyond a "casting attempt" to use the die and must have actually "cast" the spell (meaning reached the casting value on a roll). Therefore, the extra die would be considered a means to making the slaan's spells very hard to dispel versus making them easier to cast.

    This is NOT the current way most slaan are played even in tournaments, but it does not negate the fact that it is indeed the more substantiated outcome.


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    RAWR! KROXIGOR!! kroxigor01's Avatar
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    I would imagine that the phrase "Every spell successfully cast..." would replace the phrase "Every spell cast..." on page 49 of the Lizardmen Army Book if it was intended for the extra dice to only be used as an addition to a successful spell rather then a normal power dice.

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    I tend to agree with this, but it was brough up on another forum and I can't exactly say that the author's point is illogical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kroxigor01 View Post
    I would imagine that the phrase "Every spell successfully cast..." would replace the phrase "Every spell cast..." on page 49 of the Lizardmen Army Book if it was intended for the extra dice to only be used as an addition to a successful spell rather then a normal power dice.
    Yes. Furthermore, I'd point out that the Lizardman book is older than the current rulebook. What was the previous edition's wording?

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    law student.

    Does the lizardmen rulebook mean cast in the past tense or present tense when it uses the word cast? Cast can either mean the act of casting or the past tense as in casted. In my experience games workshop uses the phrase "sucessfully cast" to mean casted. Cast is used to denote the present tens of the word. In your example, the phrase "to cast" was used because it is the beginning of a sentence but "to" is not used when "cast" is used in the middle of a sentence in present tense. The way i interpret the lizardmen rulebook is cast in the present tense as in the act of casting. So, in order to cast a spell 3 dice are used. It not only makes the spell harder to dispel but also makes it easier to cast. Simply put, for a successful cast, games workshop uses the term "sucessfully cast". In rule interpretation we should disfavor an interpretation that makes meaningless other words in the rules. An interpretation merely making the word "cast" to mean sucessfully cast would make the word "sucessfully" where used in "sucessfully cast" meaningless. Thus this interpretation is not prefered. Cast means you can use 3 dice to cast.

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    Q. What is the correct way to handle the Second Generation
    Slann's "Free Dice"? Can he always use it, or only if a spell is
    successfully cast (i.e. the casting value is reached), first?

    A. It can always be used. Change the first sentence of the second
    paragraph under 'Second Generation' on page 49 to: "Every spell
    attempted by the Slann...."

    S. Gav Thorpe - Warhammer Design Team

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    no he rolls it after he has rolled the dice to succesfuly cast a spell the whole idea is to see if he gets a irresistable force or not but you can also get a miscast

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Brrrrp View Post
    Ok, put your lawyer hats on.
    The wording in the lizardman book says " Every spell cast". Now if it said "every spell the lizardman casts", which like "to cast" could indicate the first part of a process, versus just "cast" (past tense action already occured) you would have a much clearer result.
    "every spell cast" is also present tense lol

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    RAWR! KROXIGOR!! kroxigor01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macker148 View Post
    no he rolls it after he has rolled the dice to succesfuly cast a spell the whole idea is to see if he gets a irresistable force or not but you can also get a miscast
    That was not the 'whole idea', at least not according to the people who thought up the idea:
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxwell View Post
    Q. What is the correct way to handle the Second Generation
    Slann's "Free Dice"? Can he always use it, or only if a spell is
    successfully cast (i.e. the casting value is reached), first?

    A. It can always be used. Change the first sentence of the second
    paragraph under 'Second Generation' on page 49 to: "Every spell
    attempted by the Slann...."

    S. Gav Thorpe - Warhammer Design Team

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    In GTs you roll the free dice regardless and it's also been cleared up in the FAQ

    I'm struggling to see where any further ambiguity lies

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