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Greeting Fellow Lizardmen
With all your permission I hope, hehe, I have recently joined the ranks of the old ones. I am still developing my tactics and philosophy but often play against lizardmen at the top tier so I have some ideas already. I am looking for develop Lizardmen style of play. Some of the scary items of Kroxxigors going through Skink to counter charge but due to change of rules this isn't very valid anymore. So here is my thesis for taking the next step: That Lizardmen strengths and where to concentrate tactics and unit choices depending the following list on where they fall on the following:
1. Magic - I am including engines of gods in here. Slann are very impressive and our lords/ heroes should realistically be focused on what they are able to do in magic phase.
2. Mobility - Skinks provide an awesome screen a cheap way to allow you provide mobility to the field and dictate where the real battles will take place. Terradon rider fill a need.
3. Fear - Stegadon and Cold ones. With skinks moving in the backfield then unit receiving charge then fearing them away, you can autobreak many units.
4. Shooting- For Skinks after experimenting with Javeling and Blowpipes, I am really only looking for poison shots anyways. salamanders wow I am impressived with them. Terradon rider dropping rocks as they pass over a unit is Funny.
What I don't see as strong strenghts. Static combat units. Saurus are very impressive rank and file core troop. My issue is how do you make them useleful or give you advantage other than protecting your hero / lords. I see the same problem with temple guard. Suggestions anyone how to improve synergy between our units. Even when I am examining possible way I find often synergy between Saurus and skinks then followed by an anvil such as Stegadon or Cold one just too much of a point sink as this sort of interaction could possibly happen twice a game and not make up the points cost.
So Tactics wise
Magic heavy with destruction. Shooting to supplement this allowing for causality taken so unit can't rally. Skinks are moving to con stantly redirecting unit to take it away from heavy magic attacks and wheeling units so Cold / Stegadons can get a charge. Fear then forces to flee while shooting them so can't rally. Natural advantage I see lizardmen as one of the army that is very strong against fear causing armies. Cold blooded with combat skills to beat them in CR.
Glaring weakness seems to be dealing with defensive setup and character / unit entrenched. Proper defense seems to be dispel all magic at these unit.
Suggestions / help tactics or combo are always welcome. Thank you everyone in advance.
Interesting The advice looks useful. I am new to lizardmen and still confused exactly how I am going to build up my forces. I can see why you mention magic is so important, because the fluff says so Maybe I can try an all shooting Lizardmen list with magic support. I just wished Chamelons has something else than blow pipes.
I do like the idea of Saurus warroirs. Maybe just one unit will be useful. Give you a spearhead that will be hard to break, I don't know. Looks like we do have to balance and your ideas by making a proirty list for guidelines is useful. I wonder where do jungle swarm fit it if at all?
Jungle swarms are rarely, if ever seen in most lists. In fact this holds true for most swarms nowadays they simply are not worth the 100-200 pts they cost to make them effective.
I just don't see the benefit of jungle swards either.
Developing my tactics some more I am starting to Classify Stegadon with engine of gods like air craft carrier as they project power. Along with channeling from a slann at 2K list makes them even more impressive.They have a controlling and board presence unlike no other. As a result I keep going back and forth on the benefits of Skink rank and file versus Skink skrimishers. My though process is of this:
1. Shooting Screens are less important to us than ever due to how many heavy hitters we have
2. Rank file serves as a static unit that works in conjunction with everything else we have
3. Skink will save us cost per model
4. adding in Kroxxigors??? maybe but this not really a viable option
1. mobility and interpecting charges.
2. adding in fast shooting unit that posion much faster
With all these consideration are we the attacker or defender / counter charger. You can make cases for both but if you are a defender Skink Skimrishers are way to go while rank and file Skinks would be for attacking, although skrimish are still viable
After a couple of pick up games Terradon riders are really cool but for the point cost, I believe they are extremely overpriced. You can drop rocks but with low BS skill these only hit on 5 and 6's due to movement. Riders can toss Javelins. So they are flimsy lack of an amour save can only really shoot which is not that effective even with hit and run their combat skills are not impressive and 5 points more you can have a cold one knight. But being our only flyers basically almost a much needed to fill out the balance of your lists, but so situational I rather take something else.
Some additional notes Saurus Warriors are superior to Temple guard expect that a Slann might benefit from Scared Duty, and 1 difference of WS, I don't believe that 5 point model difference Saurus can also receive a Spear upgrade which means your second rank can attack even if you slann is in the first rank as per independant character rules. So in reality you have more attacks with one less weapon skill and a slann attacking as well. Where my understanding of the temple guard rules him being lift up only works on casting not on close combat. Even standard bears and musicians are cheaper as well.
Magic items note: Blood Statuette of Spite can single handy win you games. After all your casting and opponent using two dispel scroll you can destroy alot lords or heroes with this for a mere 25 points. This item is just too good, no amour saves can be taken but ward can be taken. I am soo impressed with this item and no restrictions on use unitdoesn't have to be in CC or need LOS, wow. It is an Unknown magical item, and with a magic onslaught noone will really ever see this one coming.
first off terradons drop rocks attacks hit automaticly making them much better than you previously thought.
also thje blood statuete of spite isn't as good as you claim. the chances of the character failing it's toughness test is 33.33% or 50% if it is a wizzard, after they have possibly failed this they have to take it again to take another wound. so chances are you will kill a wizzard with it once every 4 games. looks like you wasted 25pts there.
Curly, please kindly point out where it says Rock automatically hit. Nowhere in codex or main rule book do they hit like a war machine or breath attack. If you look at the codex rules it says they drop rocks that they moved over, This is a shooting attack or argue that it could fall under magic missile but it is clarfity in the FAQ: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...AQJuly2009.pdf And it claims right there it is a Shooting attack first page fifth question. Also means all shooting modifiers apply such as movement. hence - 1
Blood Statute idea targets to me are Dragon or vampire or demon or many different lords anything with high toughness such as 6 or higher with no ward save. Majority of the big stuff are that high with a high chance of destroying that model. I wouldn't ever target wizards. Completely disagree. It is a one shot at killing thing like a Vampire lord and winning you the game potentially on turn one.
The FAQ does say that dropping rocks are shooting attacks, but not all shooting attacks require a roll to hit. Another example is the dwarf organ gun. Under dropping rocks it states "D3 strength 4 hits are inflicted on the enemy unit for each Terradon" Because it says hits, there is no need to roll to hit.
based on the video's I have seen, Razordon's seem to be rather effective vs Skaven and vs any army that generally has to advance on you.
Ultimately, anything we talk about has to reflect on whom you are up against, but from a theory level.....
***Leadership- being able to roll 3 dice is a pretty big deal. If your army is more compact/keeps close to it's general, then that is a BIG deal, I can't imagine the times where if I knew I could only reroll one die (which is essentially what the 3 leadership dice is for), that it would have saved previous armies. In my experience going against Lizardmen, that 3rd die saved them many a time from an attack that would have broken most other armies.
As for the blood statuette, taking a toughness test requires you to roll under your toughness to pass. Therefore a toughness 6 model will only fail on a natural 6. The only possible targets that will have a realistic chance of dieing to this item are toughness 3 models. A toughness 6 model will really have to be rolling badly to die from this. Ability tests are the one place where rolling low is good.
Hope this helps clarify things,
Last edited by sirkently; October 17th, 2009 at 15:23.
I am right 94% of the time, why worry about the other 3%.
1. It does not declare anywhere it is treated as a warmachine type of attack. If so then you should be rolling scatter dice as well or template ect..... Therefore the intent is questionable
2. FAQ mention it is a shooting attacking there apply normal shooting attack unless mentioned otherwise. It has to be stated otherwise stated as normal shooting attack.
3. It is a special ability with a trigger therefore the trigger needs to valid followed by the ability resolution and special resolution where it does not apply to normal rules are stacked according, ie no ranged required for this shooting attack and roll for number of attacks.
4. Hits as in they hit already proceed to check on wounds works in same manner as Magic Missile. Due to the overwriting rules in the FAQ > Codex > Mainrules Auto hit does not apply. Proceed as normal shooting attack Number of attacks to hits to wounds ect....
The Organ is not errata as a shooting attack. As for Razodon it mention it is in the codex as well as salamander uses the flame template and still uses artillery dice. Those are exceptions as they clarify the exact action. The riders do not. Now you can claim the intent is to resolved as you indicated but I agree with the rules lawyering, but disagree that the intent when they clarity it in the FAQ. Never the less I might play it as hits ignoring the FAQ in casual but tournament level going to be ruled lawyered and argue both ways, I rather not field them. Ideally it needs to be changed to a special type of breath weapon for rules declaration.
Yes I am aware toughness test is under the character toughness, but even taking on Dark Elf Dreadlord soo many unit with lower toughness this item can singlehandley change the game. Against high toughness creature the finishing blow is needed and this can help achieve it. For the point cost this is amazing item, Does not require LOS and doesn't matter what situation the unit holding it. Also it is a huge surprise factor and psychological what else is this player fielding I have to be wary of. From my recent experience it has been worth the investment but everyone does have a valid point. It isn't perfect but nothing in this game is why it is so interesting of item and game.