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So i'm sitting here thinking...
A lot of people seem to think (wrongly, in my opinion) that LM are one of the best armies for magic. Sure we have the best caster in the game, but he is a hell of a lot of points, and even then we have to roll for the spells we want (unless we use the base spell trick).
Khemri, VC, Skaven and HE to name a few are much more potent in the magic phase.
I've had much success with LM lists which have no offensive magic, but one hell of a magic defence (diadem plus a few bs of tepok make for some serious dispel dice)
So what are people's views on LM magic? It's good sure, but is it really all it's cracked up to be. I personally don't think it is...
I'm a VC player, and I play lizardmen a lot, so here is my point of view. The reason lizardmen's magic is better than vc, is because the slann has more selection, more dice, and can't miscast. Miscasts have ruined me more times than I can say, and sometimes playing vc, I need to rely on my magic to win, thats just the kind of army it is. Khemri can be argued as better magic, but all of their characters are expensive.
The only time I have seen a lizardmen no magic army was in a 2v2 and I was on it's side. I was playing a necrarch magic heavy army, and with no pd or dd of his own to use, we got destroyed in the magic phase, and I never got the spell I needed off. That really screwed me over, and we ended up getting massacred. Also, he was against chaos on his side, and no matter how much he told me he would destroy before the game, I saw none of it in game. His saurus fled, his cav got murdered, and his carnie was useless. Consider what army you are playing before you do such an army ofcourse, and I do know it was stupid of him not to use an marks of tepok to give us some extra dd. I do think that the slann is the best standalone caster in the game, followed by say a tzeentch caster or maybe a vc special character, but if you use one of those you can't argue that the slann is costly (700+ for almost all of them). If you can't tell, I think if you want to go magic light, fine, but atleast one skink priest to carry a diadem or scrolls, and cast second sign, and then some spawnings. So finally, yes, it is what it is cracked up to be, the slann is a major obstacle, in game and psychologically, and the versatility it grants is well worth it. With the slann you get what you pay for(no miscasts, high survival wizard, can see pretty much anything on the field, massive number of spells, ward save, +1 to cast blah blah blah) and with skinks you get a mobile scroll caddy who can cast second sign, one of my most hated spells in the game because of how much it can change a combat or shooting phase.
I would have to agree with Master Jabu. A 2nd gen slann equipped with daidem and BSB, and plaque of tepok and cube of darkness is a mere 575 i bielve, may be 585, i forget at the moment, however even though we sitll have to roll spells, i traditionally have an order in which i roll for spells, and if i get a spell i want i move onto another lore in my list. I go Fire(firey blast and/or fireball), then heavens(second sign and comet, however the rest are preety dencent as well) and finally move to the shadow(shadow stalker or that one that lets people move like 9 incehs or something). SO if you get a great line up, or a so so line up, just base spells, you will most likely get all of them off any ways. A free dice, +1 to cast and dispell and like 8 wounds, you no longer need to worry about shooting. just pop him in with like 3 skink priests(scroll caddy, scroll caddy and LOS caddy(cloak of feather)) SO never say that lizzies dont have magic.
Choose the best answer to fit in the blank:
_____ney is the root of all evil!
Where did i say that?Originally Posted by VAPORgunSo it must follow, surely, that you can't argue that khemri characters are expensive, as they are cheaper than the slann...Originally Posted by Master Jabu...Originally Posted by Master Jabu
When i use a slann i tend not to go for skink priests, as i like to have characters in my saurus units (I'm talking 2250 points). I usually give the scrolls to the slann.
I do think the slann is good, don't get me wrong. I just don't think they are the best. I think HE are the best magic army in the game, with skaven second IMO.
Sorry, yes I realize that characters are generally expensive for any army that wants to play them, that may be a bit off base in my analogy, but the expensiveness of the slann works with the lizardmen army, and I've seen plenty of liz armies that have outfought me while still having a slann there to outmagic me. Having never played HE or skaven I can't argue with you, but are you talking about their magic list, magic items they cant take, or their spellcasters. I will not argue that there may be better lists, but i do not think there is a better caster.
I think someone calculated that, on his own, a 2nd Generation can have 14 power dice.
4 for Level Four Wizard
1 for Plaque of Dominance
2 for Diadem of Power
5 for each of his spells (+1 Spell for Plaque of Tepok)
So... yeah. I think Lizardmen can magic up there with the big boys.
They can also play the avoidance game and fight up there with the big boys, which is the reason I dislike them.
The only way a no-magic Lizzie army can be competitive is as a Sacred Host of Tepok, or just with a LOT of spawnings of Tepok.
Any list with NO magic at all is gimped, but we are talking about no offensive magic. In which case I completely disagree with you. With a priest or two with scrolls one has so many points to use for combat based troops. Saurus are one of if not the best frontline troops in the game. Salamanders or a Stegadon can make for strong flankers, and let's not even mention lots of skinks, also arguably the best skirmishers in the game. With more of these and less magic, that makes for a very potent list. The only reason combat based lizardmen lists are a bit rarer is because many people are drawn to lizardmen because of their strength in magic and therefore incorporate alot of it. Anway, I'm not trying to rag on you, just politely disagreeing. Cheers.
It's not about how many power dice you can generate when you are casting spells which do D6 S4 hits. So you cast it on a 20+? ok i'll let that go off...
The thing about skaven and HE is that you can rarely afford to let any of their spells through. The skaven lore is disgusting, and warlock engineers come with warp lightning, they don't even have to roll for it!
Now imagine a 2k point HE list with a level two and a level four mage. I can have the level 2 choose his spells, and for another few points have the level four know five spells. When you look at the High Lore you quickly realise how bad this can be...
If we look at the dwarfs, who have no offensive magic, we see that they come with four dispel dice standard. Now with the diadem of power the lizardmen can also effectively do this. Add in a few spawnings of tepok and we can also generate a sound magic defence.
I think LM cc lists can fare extremely well as long as you have a good magic defence.
I agree with Master Jabu when you say there is no better spellcaster, however i just think that other armies can make better magic offensive lists. Others may disagree
The 'big four' in the Grand Tournaments is as follow:
2. Shooty Skaven
3. Some that I forgot... (:tongue
4. Magic-heavy Lixardmen.
Why? Becuase a correctly tooled Slann with Skink support is extremely good and can literally waste entire armies if not countered correctly.
The title. I thought it was it was an implied "Lizardmen don't have amgic, but sorry anyways, Altohugh combat heavy Lizardmen lists are Supposedly "rare" i would disagree, on the charge sarus can tear through to massive CR as well as t4. This comboed with a cheap skink priest with 2 scrolls, can shut off enough magic to let the saurus get into combat, or at least the expensive units get into combat. Lizardmen have the potential for great magic, but i tinhk most will try for a couple of spells here or there, but will overall be a defensive army.Originally Posted by Stonehambey
I mean if you really look at the magic items, alot of them have to do with shutting down magic "cube of darkness", "Drain Magic" and other such items.
Also Stonehamby, IIRC the daidem of power lets you store unused power and dispell dice for your next magic phase. You can't store dice for the dispell phase although
Choose the best answer to fit in the blank:
_____ney is the root of all evil!