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I'm sure this has been discussed before but i cannot find any reference via the search engine so i will raise it here. On a side note i have noticed that some members do not like to use MSU tactics with Lizardmen armies. I would ask why, is it personal preference or is the style unsuited to our lizards? Personally i can see a number of unconventional units being used quite successfully.
First off, i will describe what i know as the definition of MSU. Multiple Small Units, i think originated with the druchii as a method of capitalizing on the Dark Elf stat line and high unit cost. By using small units in combined combats where you increase your frontage (more attacks by superior troops) and deny enemy ranks bonus (canceling enemy strength of cheap rank bonus), thus you play to your strengths. To make best use of this style you need good LD, skilled troops and good movement all of which the druchii have but then again so do we.
Lets us take a look at a couple of the units that could be used by a Lizardmen General in an MSU style.
Saurus: Saurus as we know are one of the best infantry units in the game. With high strength, toughness, leadership and high volumes of attacks the Saurus are almost perfect for MSU play. They only seem to lack in their average movement. They also benefit greatly from the increased frontage and lack of rank bonus due to relatively high unit costs. To me i see them best used in a 10 - 15 strong unit (leaning more to the 15) with musician if being used as bait or standard if used as a counter charger.
Kroxigor: The Krox is an MSU wet dream. Small frontage, high movement, high strength and toughness, good leadership, aquatic (not that many boards have water features), cause fear and they can charge through their skink screen. When all of this is used with MSU tactics in mind they are the perfect counter charger.
Salamanders: Now I'm not sure if anyone has ever thought of using the Salamander in this fashion but they seem well suited to it. As you have noted above both Saurus and Krox are far better suited to the counter charge as opposed to the flee reaction necessary for MSU play, although the Saurus would serve as bait admirably. The Saly however is a (almost) perfect bait unit. It is a skirmisher with a high number of wounds, causes fear, has good movement, and it is a awesome missile unit. Now place this in front of a Saurus unit and continue to move forward putting pressure on the enemy with their auto hits and the Saly can flee through the Saurus without much fear of panicking them (especially if the Saurus are Tlaztocl) and with cold blooded leadership 5 is not to hard to rally.
I would imagine that the Stegadon and CoR would serve well in a counter charge role but i won't get into them because i think that overall they my be a little too expensive to fit within the over all unit.
One key difference that could be raised between Dark Elf and Lizardmen MSU would be long range fire. From my experience druchii who use this tactic will pressure the enemy to close with considerable losses and engage when the enemy tries to get to grips. Lizards on one hand not having access to this fire power would have to bring the fight to the enemy and this would present difficulties to the tactic that at the moment i am having trouble foreseeing.
At the moment i am thinking that the formation described below would work well. At a cost of just under 600 points it is not a bad little formation.
15 Saurus w/ full command @ 210 points (anchor unit)
3 Krox @ 174 points (remains at saurus' flank)
12 skinks @ 72 points (screens Kroxs)
2 Salamaders @ 130 points (screens saurus, maintains missile fire and acts as bait unit)
The Kroxs and Skinks would never be closer to the enemy than the Salies and the formation as a whole continues to advance until the enemy react. Either the formation gets the charge or the Skinks or Salies get charged themselves who then flees and get counter charged by both Saurus and Krox. I imagine that it needs work and would require a very good sense of distance but i can see how it could work.
Well it is a bit of a rant but i would like to hear from anyone who has had any experience with MSU or if you think it is just complete crap please feel free to say so...
Thank you for an interesting post, Origin. =)
Me? I'm a simple fellow, much like the saurus. Three blocks of 20 saurus with the BSB at the centre is my general approach. That's one tough line to break!
I try to use the skinks to flee bait in much the same way you suggested, although I need to get better at guessing ranges! :/
My general approach to salamanders is not to use them to flee bait unless absolutely necessary. I find their shooting is damn effective, and I try to make use of that as much as possible.
20 saurus isn't that much more than 15, and for that you get the chance of outnumber and an extra rank, worth the points IMO.
Oh yes it is. 15 Saurus just misses getting a maxed out rank bonus and can't take more than one unit at a time. 20 Saurus can stand charges from multiple units, has a maxed out rank bonus ... and looks scarey20 saurus isn't that much more than 15, and for that you get the chance of outnumber and an extra rank, worth the points IMO.
Ah ... Lizardmen MSU. Good grief this has been discussed and discussed in various places.
When it comes down to it, it's all what you like to play with. There are hordes of great tatics with Lizardmen. It's one of the best and most versitile armies avaliable and people tend to get very picky. I posted a massive, Lone Slann Tatica a while ago on Warhammer Realm and it generated a lot of interesting responses. Some people said that they could never dream of being able to pull it off; others said that they were perfectly happy with their own methods, thank you; others said that they would not like to stand the risk of having an unprotected Slann - their nerves couldn't stand it.
I love the idea of a fast, hard-hitting and versitile power army. No game is the same - every game I find myself using different tatics, different modes of play, having to adjust to what my opponent uses etc. One of the really great things about it is that it can be played in almost any game - 500 points to 5000. You don't need to use all the fancypancy-but-darn-expensive Saurus Cavelry in 500 points because Kroxigors, Salamanders, Saurus Veterans and the like serve the purpose fine. I will not discuss tatics for MSU because they are limitless. Make up your own, fiddle about with them, revise them, change them, play with them again, change them again: whatever. But you'll find that once you're good at it, it works every time ...
Origin: As to the 600 point army, add a Veteran on a Cold One and you've got a tournament-winning 750 point army.
I meant in terms of points costs. You missed my point entirely, I actually advocate the use of large saurus blocks.Originally Posted by Heptzul
Thanks for the replies guys.
I have just expanded my lizardmen force to hold 100 Saurus, as you can see I like the Saurus wall and it was this abundance of Saurus that got me thinking about multiple small units of them. I was interested in using nothing but Saurus (mostly, I am referring to less dino type units) in a 2000 - 2500 point force and I far as I could see to make this effective you would have to have units of variable size.
Saurus are by far one of the most versatile, capable infantry units in the game. I would disagree with Heptzl in this though...The only reason Saurus can take a charge is Ld 8 with cold blooded, it has very little to do with being hard to kill. So yes my Saurus have held against overwhelming odds but with tremendous casualties and in subsequent combats they have been whittled down via attrition which I account to the sub par I2 and average WS 3. High number of attacks is of little worth when your dead.20 Saurus can stand charges from multiple units
With the number of blessed spawning options some very cool little combos can be pulled off in a MSU style play. Take for example a block of 30 core saurus flanked by a 10 - 12 saurus unit with blessed spawning of chotec. The large block can take the charge and our smaller flanker can counter charge and pursue while the larger remains with the battle line. Use this with Sotek, Tzunki, Huanchi. Rinse and repeat.
Large Saurus blocks are good solid anchors for an otherwise very fluid lizardmen battle line. Because of this I could not envision a Lizardmen force without at least 2. But with high point cost and a wealth of special and rare choices blessedly spawned units often get over looked (their is the arbitrary tlazcotl slann bodyguard which sees some use eh Stonehambey..???). Imagine a small unit of 10 Saurus with a blessed spawning of Sotek flanking another larger unit (empire detachment style), counter charge for 15 strength 4 attacks @ 150 points not bad (waiting for the.."but krox are only 24 points more and they can do this, and that....).
I very rarely see a number of blessed spawnings taken, Tzunki, Huanchi, Chotec, they are cheap, offer tactical variety to an otherwise static battle. I would imagine with a number of smaller units of Saurus on the field they would see more use. And capitalise on Saurus' potential versatility
I am finding that the ability of Skinks to bait and flee is decreasing with the general awareness of this tactic and general's ability to counter them with charge aliments etc. Furthermore Skinks are of little threat to a main block infantry unit which the Saurus behind would be pursuing. Another smaller unit of Saurus is much better bait because YOU can dictate the enemy's alignment with yours and the unit is actually a threat so the enemy would be foolish to leave it.Heptzul, I posted this thread so I could discuss it. All respect to your Lone Slann Tactica, which I have read and thoroughly enjoyed. I don't use it myself but I ran with it, discussed it amongst peers and used lessons learned there for other units and other armies. I have my own MSU tactic as you could see, I revise them, I change them, I was hoping that someone had some experience in them and not just a hollow, "do it yourself and you'll figure it out" style of advice.I will not discuss tactics for MSU because they are limitless. Make up your own, fiddle about with them, revise them, change them, play with them again, change them again: whatever. But you'll find that once you're good at it, it works every time ...