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Everything powered up? You what?

3K views 51 replies 21 participants last post by  strewart 
#1 ·
I saw a post that was closed where someone commented that everything in the VC army got powered up............you what?

Zombies can no longer kill anything at all, no matter what.
Our magic phase didn't get more powerful, it got weaker as we now have to spend 750-800 points on characters just get enough magic to bypass any half decent defense.
We get more variety in bloodlines, but still high in points costs.
Magic items, pretty standard, nothing major thats new.

Wheres all these powerered up things? The coach got a tiny bit better if you don't mind sucking ur magic phase dry. Skeletons/GG were made a little cheaper thou even against DE they struggle. Vampires rack up the points costs yet are so brittle even with good stat lines.
 
#2 ·
The vampires have been "powered up" its just that the power up manifests in certain ways. For vampire counts the great strength of the army has always been that it has powerful magic and that it has large blocks of fear causing and unbreakable troops.
The magic phase of the vampires has become more powerful, with the ability to cast spells on one dice, and the ability to turn up with 8 power dice for a single vampire. The ability to re-cast necromancy spells is back, and makes the phase really dangerous especially given that vanhals danse, our game winner is recastable. In addition to these benefits the vampires now have access to all the lores of magic in the rulebook.
The bloodline powers have expanded, their cost is about right if you consider that there is nothing in the game that can turn them off.
In the last edition of the vampire book, you would have been spending approximately 600 points so 800 is not a hugh stretch.
Zombies never killed anything anyway, and the fact that they are now 4 points each and you raise d6 plus 4 for each one dice cast of invocation means they are easier than ever to raise. The new units are also excellent, and some of the new magic items have proved to be very powerful in my early games.
 
#4 ·
*Sigh*

Let's just go over a few things, shall we?

1. Less dependence on the general. What's this? Models can march thanks to any vampire?
2. What's that? A T4, 2 poisoned attack core unit? That you can replenish?

Damn, awful so far.

3. Black knights get to go full whack through terrain? Hey, I want some of that!
4. Blood Knights. So that's a Chosen Knight of Khorne.

With a lance.

5. Black coach is a walking tank. And conveniently helps units around it too.
6. Varghulfs. That is all.
7. You can pick and choose bloodline powers.
8. And have magic items on top.
9. Helm of Commandment.
10. Regenerating grave guard/black knight bunkers (that can regen combat res damage! Which applies to Varghulfs, too.).

By the way, pretty much every army has to spend 800pts on a magic phase if it wants to really blow the opposition off the table with it.

And anything that isn't a special character or rare unit is pretty cheap for what you get. and can be healed...by the spell all you characters can know without trying.

Oh, and there's the biggy that synergises perfectly with invocation/raise dead. They never, ever run away. VC have the most powerful advantage in the game - predictability. No special rule or shiny magic item can adequately convey just how much of a huge advantage that is.

Giles, your arguments are selective and exceptionally biased. Either tackle the issues or keep it quiet.
 
#7 ·
*Sigh*

Let's just go over a few things, shall we?

1. Less dependence on the general. What's this? Models can march thanks to any vampire?
What's that? Dwarfs can march anytime? Every other army can march no matter how far they are from the general?

*2. What's that? A T4, 2 poisoned attack core unit? That you can replenish?
T4, 2 poisoned attack core unit with no save and no command.

*Damn, awful so far.
Really? Or are you just a little biased?

*3. Black knights get to go full whack through terrain? Hey, I want some of that!
Play wood elves - whole army get's to move through woods. Or, if you play Bretts get the banner that lets you.

*4. Blood Knights. So that's a Chosen Knight of Khorne.

With a lance.
Rather expensive, and frenzied. Double edged sword there - and if they start losing combat they start losing models.

*5. Black coach is a walking tank. And conveniently helps units around it too.


6. Varghulfs. That is all.
Different to a Treeman? War Hydra? Dragon? Once again, lose combat and they lose wounds.
Dark Elf Assassins. 'Nuff said.


*7. You can pick and choose bloodline powers.
Oh no!

*8. And have magic items on top.
Whatever shall we do? Still, can't dwarves get over 100pts of runes on their lords? Or Brets and their virtues?

*9. Helm of Commandment.



10. Regenerating grave guard/black knight bunkers (that can regen combat res damage! Which applies to Varghulfs, too.).
Can only regenerate with a banner - sure they can be re-animated, but not above their starting number (like skellies) and needs a lot of IoN spamming. Sure, they can be used to become a 'super-unit' but every single army has the ability to get a unit that fulfills a similar role.

*By the way, pretty much every army has to spend 800pts on a magic phase if it wants to really blow the opposition off the table with it.

And anything that isn't a special character or rare unit is pretty cheap for what you get. and can be healed...by the spell all you characters can know without trying.

Oh, and there's the biggy that synergises perfectly with invocation/raise dead. They never, ever run away. VC have the most powerful advantage in the game - predictability. No special rule or shiny magic item can adequately convey just how much of a huge advantage that is.
Sure, they don't run. But they do crumble - and if you start losing multiple combats not even spamming IoN is going to save you.

*Giles, your arguments are selective and exceptionally biased. Either tackle the issues or keep it quiet.
Rork, take some of your own advice on this last one.
 
#5 · (Edited)
haha thank you for the good laugh Rork. :) Yes we for sure got a nice boost with the new book. For 8 points a model you get a T4 with 2 poison attacks, and know with Summon Ghouls, and Ghoulkin they are just very good. The first time i brought the new rulebook over to my friends house, I used Helm of commandment and he was SHOCKED that it was 30 points and not just 1 use. Our magic item list is just amazing now, and combined with all the new vampire skills they can be one tough hero or lord to have on your side.
 
#6 ·
Ah yes but you fail to understand the logic Rork - there isn't a shiny super unit - only the components to make a very good army.

Therefore the lists have not been powered up - to use an historical analogy - the Tiger and the Panther are OK but what we really need is a Maus.

In a way I am pleased to see these arguements because I don't believe the hype about VC being overpowered, and it suggests to me that other armies have developed tactics to cope and 'I win' button/rock-paper-scissors element has been removed - which in turn leads to the lament that the new army is lacking the killer touch (which you can of course obtain via the Hand of Dust).

No doubt similar sentiments will be expressed with regard to DoC in the very near future.
 
#9 · (Edited)
just wanted to remind everyone that 2 poisoned attacks at 8 pts a model IS overpower. not to mention the godliness of t4.

just compare that to skinks, 6 points for 1 poisoned atk and ws 2 and t2???!!!! um I believe that is incredibly less weaker for only 2 points less!!

EDIT: lol why would you need a command for a unit that doesnt flee/ will usually always outnumber do to replenishes. and not to mention all the overkills it will get from the 2 atks.
 
#11 ·
just wanted to remind everyone that 2 poisoned attacks at 8 pts a model IS overpower. not to mention the godliness of t4.
Not really, unless they hit combat and start rolling a lot of 6's they have no impact on the game. To use your example below of skinks - they have a much greater impact on the game. Sure they only get one poisoned attack, but it is at range. They are harder to hit (being skirmishers), faster (skirmishers), can move through cover more easily (skirmishers) and don't have to risk having their backsides handed to them in combat to do their damage. They can quite succesfully spend the entire game moving around and shooting stuff.

just compare that to skinks, 6 points for 1 poisoned atk and ws 2 and t2???!!!! um I believe that is incredibly less weaker for only 2 points less!!
Or 6 points to a DE Spearman (Spearelf?) who has hatred, fights in 2 ranks and light armour? There is absolutely no point comparing points values across different armies.

EDIT: lol why would you need a command for a unit that doesnt flee/ will usually always outnumber do to replenishes. and not to mention all the overkills it will get from the 2 atks.
The use of a command is to a) net you that little extra Combat Res (which VC needs) and b) to give you access to a musician. Musicians are invaluable in turning a drawn combat into a winning combat. Not to mention the ability to take a champion to draw off characters through challenges. Ghouls have absolutely nothing to stop a souped up character putting a rather large hole in the unit.
And their lack of armour means that they fall rather easily to shooting. And yeah, they can be raised. But to increase above the starting number you have to pay extra, they still have no armour (as troubling in CC as it is in Shooting), and when your other, more important units (GG, BK, Blood Knights) start falling, will you bother raising them?
 
#10 ·
Exarch Thomo, are you seroiusly going to argue that the vampire counts book recieved a power down, or on the level compared with the last edition?
I think the argument is about the percieved power creep, or lack of it. Just because the vampire count book is a little more subtle about the way it powers the army up that doesn't mean that it doesn't.
There are up and down sides to every army in every edition, the fact that you compare the comments made by Rork to different books just highlights that the VC have been brought onto a level with the other races in 7th edition.

Oh, and there's the biggy that synergises perfectly with invocation/raise dead. They never, ever run away. VC have the most powerful advantage in the game - predictability.
This is by far the best point of this thread so far. The ability to be able to sit down and work out whether or not, to a good degree of chance your units will take a charge from say a given unit of knights is too easily forgotten.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Exarch Thomo, are you seroiusly going to argue that the vampire counts book recieved a power down, or on the level compared with the last edition?
I think the argument is about the percieved power creep, or lack of it. Just because the vampire count book is a little more subtle about the way it powers the army up that doesn't mean that it doesn't.
There are up and down sides to every army in every edition, the fact that you compare the comments made by Rork to different books just highlights that the VC have been brought onto a level with the other races in 7th edition.



This is by far the best point of this thread so far. The ability to be able to sit down and work out whether or not, to a good degree of chance your units will take a charge from say a given unit of knights is too easily forgotten.

By no means am I saying that they were 'powered down' or 'on level' with last edition. I am saying that they are not "overpowered". The new book has bought them to a level with all the other recent army book releases, and allows them to compete with the other lists.
There is a typical knee jerk reaction whenever new books come out or players just can't beat a certain list to call that army overpowered. VC has changed in it's dynamics, yes it is a strong army, yes it is open to abuse (but then so is every other list out there - well, except maybe for the poor ol' DoW's).
As to the point about being predictable - this is nothing new. Undead have never had to worry about running, so why is it such an issue now?
Calling VC's overpowered is nothing short of an utter load of rubbish. Unless you are rather lucky in your opponents you still have to rely on a modicum of strategy and intelligence to play the list successfully. If it was overpowered, you would not.
 
#13 ·
Exarch Thomo said:
The use of a command is to a) net you that little extra Combat Res (which VC needs) and b) to give you access to a musician. Musicians are invaluable in turning a drawn combat into a winning combat. Not to mention the ability to take a champion to draw off characters through challenges. Ghouls have absolutely nothing to stop a souped up character putting a rather large hole in the unit.
Ghouls can take champions to absorb mass attacks from characters. They just can't get musicians or standards. Which I think works well, full command doesn't suit a unit of ghouls and it gives the cores a bit of variety. Skeletons will give you better armour and better static combat res, while ghouls will hit harder but have worse armour and not the static combat res. I already think ghouls are a bit above skellies, if they could have full command they would be fantastic.

I think the VC book has been out long enough for the knee-jerk reaction to have worn off, most VC players are recording phenomenal W/L records and opponents are finding the new VC hard to beat. Much of the list is pretty similar to last ed, which was powerful and IMO easily competative and still reasonably high up compared to the other new lists around now, except this time we got much better vamp options to make truely scary magic phases, and an infinitely better magic lore and rules. Casting unlimited invocations per turn on one dice which can raise a full d6 of anything up to grave guard is overpowered. A VC player can be in a terrible position, have all his units heavily reduced in number and the opponent about to win easily, then pull off just one good magic phase and be right back in the game and look almost untouched.

Spending 800 points to get a great magic phase? Well remember other armies are spending nearly that much to get t3 mages, while we get s/t 5 vampires that are crazy in combat as well. For the same points as other magic heavy armies, we still get the great combat characters and better leadership of the fighter general (over an archmage of other armies).

They are much more powerful than last edition, and in general a bit overpowered, but definitely still beatable. However, I think when tooled up and abused there really isn't much that can beat them.
 
#14 ·
You are right about the ghouls - teach me to go off memory while I'm at work. Still, the rest of the points are still valid.
And like I said I am not saying that htey are underpowered or were nurfed merely that they arenot overpowered when compared to the rest of the current army books.
 
#16 ·
Who cares about predictability? Heh, play Skaven for a while and then ask that question again. :p I can't tell you how much nicer it is to not have to worry about cascading panic failures as a vamp player after playing Skaven for so long.

And sure, some units have weaknesses if they're left on their own, but eh, what doesn't? Varghulf doesn't do well unsupported and takes wounds from combat res (that it can regen)? Okay - well, a DE hydra can get run down and destroyed if it doesn't win combat.


Ghouls and Skeletons can't win combats on their own? What core is expected to win combats alone?


And what DE assassin (other than the special character shadowblade) is going to kill a properly equipped vampire lord? If they take the 2d6 poison one, they'll likely not get a wound through because they'll be limited to a small number of attacks with a lower strength. And if they go for the R&F killing mass attacks, they'll not be able to do enough damage to kill you in a round... at which case they should be spanked by the return attacks. Then you can heal yourself, and go about your business.
 
#17 · (Edited)
To argue that one army is overpower is kind of ridiculous I think. Games Workshop tests plays everything so that each army has it's strengths and weaknesses. It does seem a bit stacked that the High Elves all get the Always Strikes First rule for all their units, but that just makes the look on a High Elf Lords face when he runs into a vampire with the Nightshroud armor priceless.

I'm a new player so I don't know how strong the Vampire counts used to be, but I see that as well as the glaring weakness of combat resolution destroying undead units, I don't have to worry about my troops ever running away, and I have monstrously powerful characters who can bring back up two 12 of my undead minions on a 5+!!!

The greatest weakness I see with the Vampire Counts army is that if the general is killed, you are pretty much toast unless you have already driven off most of the enemy. Fortunately There is a nifty little device called the Carstein Ring that can bring the general back from the dead (again) on a 2+! The best thing is that there is nothing your opponent can do about it! So don't worry when that Dark Elf Assasin insta gibs your general. He'll be back.

So thats basically all I have to say. Vampire Counts are the same as every other army. We have our weaknesses yes, but we have our strengths too. I'm looking forward to starting the Counts despite the naysayers.
 
#18 ·
He'll be back with 1 poxy wound, so the rest of the unit will happily finish him off without too much trouble. plus that ring is 75pts as if vampires arent expensive enough already just to make them feasible in the magic phase.

You've forgotten the +extra attacks + killing blow assassin that owns any Vampire Lord unless hes using up points on the armour, in which case hes sacrificing the other bits of armour with ward saves on them. The lord and hero vamps have ok stat lines but that isn't enough in Warhammer.
 
#19 ·
Well, I don't really know if VC are "overpowered." I can definately say that it is a much more forgiving army than others.

I think the real question is not whether or not VC are strong/ too strong, but what players will do about it. I think players of other armies, rather than giving up because VC are powerful, should find ways to defeat them (because in reality, what's done is done).


But, as a VC player myself, there are a few combinations which seem downright mean to your opponent (super GG unit, blood knights w/battle standard bearer, etc)
 
#20 ·
But there is always a weakness, always a way around a units strength. You mentioned the Blood Knights. Yes they are monsters on the charge, and yes their 4+ ward save means they will shrug off alot of firepower, but they are incredibly expensive models, so there will only ever be a few of them. Everything is balanced out. A good commander finds ways to exploit enemy weaknesses and use his strengths. A bad commander whines about how his units are nerfed etc. etc.

GW isn't going to hand you an invincible army. You have to figure out how to use it. If you don't think the Counts are viable in the magic phase, why don't you play an army that is?
 
#21 ·
I think the new VC are far better than the old VC, which was pretty darned good to start with.

Magic is much more potent with a single caster being able to really pump out the dice on low casting value spells. Casting values are lower all the way around and the spells improved.

Incomparable points for powers and items. Dwarfs and Brets envy VC when it comes to that area.

Units are cheaper.

Ethereal is better.

New units kick butt.

VC was my first army, and I'm playing them again now. I love the VC army but I think they just about overdid it here and with Daemons.

daelrog is right. They're a very forgiving army and one that total newbies can succeed with. Fear all the way around is amazing. Unbreakable is amazing. Being able to heal every damned model on the table is amazing. Vamps and wight kings are amazing. I think their advantages easily outweigh the disadvantages.



 
#22 ·
farmergiles said:
400-600 points for our general.....fair play oh look DE assassin, hes dead, army crumbles! We pay loads for a general that is pretty brittle to be honest. I'll take 150 points for a killing blow assassin over a 600 point lord that can only ever end up with basic armour or mediocre ward saves
I think we can all agree that DE assassins are just rediculous now. There is very little in the game that they couldn't kill in one go when equipped properly, and literally nothing you can do to stop an I9 ASF model that you can't even see until his unit is in combat, plus he doesn't even take a hero choice. The bane of everyone's general not just VC, it just hurts us more because we crumble.

Other than that, I feel very confident putting my t5 4+ward vamp on the frontlines and expect him not to die, he deals great damage and even if he loses a couple of wounds you can heal him in the next turn.

Casting on one dice is nice, but 4+ is not something I like to gamble on. 50 50 chances more often that not despite statistics will go wrong when you want them to. And the opponent only needs 1 dispel dice to own u
Take the summons bloodline power and you are casting on 3's. That is what I meant by one dice, 4+ is too much of a gamble usually. But if it works, a lot of opponents will not risk just one dice to stop a 5 or 6 cast, they will either ignore it or use 2 dice.

The Varghulf not winning on its own? What do you put it against? Of course it isn't going to beat a full ranked unit on its own, nor should it, thats not its job. Attack archers, warmachines, fast cavalry, lone mages, it can even handle most heavy cavalry units. And it will squash chariots with ease. It doesn't need support, it is support.

No offence intended, but it looks like the people saying vamps aren't powered up either don't play that often or need to change their playstyles and lists. It is very easy to make an army that everything (except DE assassins) will fear and have trouble against. And if you are still saying ASF for all HE is brilliant, you can't have played them at all. It is nowhere near as powerful as it originally sounded.
 
#23 ·
Strewart I think you are missing my point. No-one is arguing that VC haven't been 'powered-up', but that they aren't 'overpowered'. There is a distinct and huge difference between the two.
The new book means that some old tactics are obsolete - whether they are used to beat VC's or to win with them. Meaning that someone has to change their tactics doesn't mean that something is overpowered, and those who cry about it quite frankly shouldn't be playing a game. It means that you have to change they way things are handled.
Every list has the potential to cause any opponent endless grief - but it is up to the player to decide whether or not they want to do that.
 
#24 ·
Dwarves and Brets get obscene low cost units as standard. If you gave them cheap items as well (which they are a bit in some places) then they would be unstoppable instead of just plain overpowered.

Ethereal hasn't changed so how has that been improved.

Casting values are lower yes, but the amount of dice we get point for point is less to go with it. To get the same amount of dice we used to to maintain a feasible magic phase we didn't have to spend anywhere near the amount of points we currently do.

Units are cheaper yes, but then paying 10 points for a skeleton was laughable in the old version so now its made right. Zombies are cheap, but in contrast they are now completely useless in combat. Before at STR 3 and T3 you could rely on them to occasionally do the odd wound and survive some beatings. Str 2 and T2 is far too weak, they struggle even as a tar pit because you'll be losing more models than you're raising to any half decent melee unit.

The Varghulf will not handle heavy calvary no way. They rip him apart. Lone mages are not common any more and warmachines will generally like to blow your 175 point unit away before it reaches them.

Give the VC to a newbie, he will lose. He will rely on the wrong units, cast the wrong spells at the wrong time and over-estimate the potential of half his army list. They can be forgiving, but no where near on a scale as some armies. Dwarves and Brets and Lizardman Slann armies for example are difficult to lose with! If VC were powerful before, they have now been made balanced. If they were balanced before.....well you get the point!
 
#25 ·
Friad Strewart and Timk1111 are spot on here.

My wife has VC, and despite me playing High Elves, with uber-disciplined troops and access to some awesome units, VC are a consistently difficult army to beat, regardless of the build - and I have played Warhammer roughly 18 years longer than my wife has.

VC have everything except a gunline - they have access to as much cavalry as most armies except Bretonnians, Empire or Dark Elves (including Dire wolves in this number), they have an extremely resilient T4 core unit, with the added ability of getting buffs from Vampires with the appropriate rules, they can raise and replenish losses to ANY unit, including a half-century points-worth of monster knights.

The elite infantry are a royal pain, and quite capable of annihilating anything under the sun, especially characters on ridden monsters, or cavalry.

Every weakness of the army has a corrective measure - low I? Well we all know what to do about that - pesky Elf Archmage casting Drain Magic? Hmm - Corpse cart will ruin his day! War Machines paying you a little too much attention? Send in teh wraiths or an ethereal Vampire. You HAVE to pay for this flexibility, but VC have an answer to any tactical question posed. Against a canny Dwarf player, most opponents do not.

VCare interesting and a challenge to face, but in the hands of someone with good asset allocation skills AND good tactical nouce, they are LIKELIER to win than if the same player had a different army, say HE....
 
#26 ·
farmergiles... VC is universally known as one of the strongest lists. You try and make it sound as if we are fighting an uphill battle. You bring up good points on the army's weaknesses, but it needs to have those weaknesses. There have to be ways to kill our general or else what's the point in the crumble rule? Our magic items can't just make our vamps untouchable.

I think most people will back me up when I say that this is starting to go in circles. Can we agree at least that.

1) VC is a really strong army book
2) It has some noticeable weaknesses
3) VC have some really, really nasty tricks
4) So do some other armies
5) Daelrog is the smartest, most bestest poster EVER!
 
#28 ·
More than likely. I don't believe we fight an uphill battle. Some books do get it worse (Empire and Orcs anyone?).

Interesting point Vall, I think thats probably the case, because we are the first to point out the weaknesses we have, but the other players are quick to assume otherwise.
 
#29 ·
You get immortality, strength, toughness, speed, magical power, hoards of servants, the fear and admiration of mortals willing to throw themselves at your feet to do your bidding, a dark castle, insane hunched back man servants the ability to wear black and look good, an excuse to brood, as many goth chicks as you could ask for. You answer to no authority but yourself, you do not feel fear, pain or death and you still find time to complain?

See this is why Vampire Lords are wary of giving peasants the Dark Kiss.


On a more serious note as long as Zombies are good speed bump tar regiments, then I'm not fearing any Dark Elf Assassins. If you can't spot a hidden weapon aimed for your general by turn two then you might as well install a sun bed in your castle..........
 
#30 · (Edited)
All posts containing obnoxious material have been staked through the heart, decapitated, and duly burned in the Imperial forges.

Farmergiles can disagree with every single point anyone here makes, and likewise, you can disagree with him. However, none of you may do so while attacking the other person. Look at the posts that remain here, that were not deleted, and notice how they do just that, disagree without resorting to personal attacks.

It's easy.

I say, "I think you are wrong, misterdoodles. Ethereal units are overrated and too expensive. Having access to a banshee requires to much of a point investment."

You say, "bottomsup, have you considered that no other army has an ethereal unit and that you can effectively tarpit ogre-type units, like Kroxigors or Trolls? They also make an excellent flanking unit against ranked enemies. They get a flank bonus, negate ranks, and most often suffer no wounds in return. Just watch out for enemy characters on the corners of units."

What we don't like is, "You are a simpleton turd-monkey who's never played a game of Warhammer, at least not with any strategy. Go home and read your rulebook."

Quite frankly, I don't care who's causing the problem. Anyone involved in the melee, from start to finish, is out of line, and it needs to stop.



 
#32 ·
You say, "bottomsup, have you considered that no other army has an ethereal unit and that you can effectively tarpit ogre-type units, like Kroxigors or Trolls? They also make an excellent flanking unit against ranked enemies. They get a flank bonus, negate ranks, and most often suffer no wounds in return. Just watch out for enemy characters on the corners of units."
Spirit hosts deny ranks, but wraiths do not as skirmishers - so be careful there. Don't really want to throw them into the big 5 even from the flank/rear.. not without some more static res from a multi-charge.

Personally, I find them fairly expensive... I prefer more fighty stuff such as a Varghulf and even Blood Knights. Those guys are fantastic if you can avoid the bait charges with screening stuff.



My gaming group is even considering making house rules to weaken the VC magic a bit, and this was suggested by the main VC player since he got sick of battles being to easy. He is trying hard to make his list weaker and more balanced, but cannot find a way to. I know I will face the same trouble when I start using mine more often, as I'm focusing on HE for now.
Pfff, just go without magic! :p

I have a measly 5 power dice with my 2,250 vamp list and it does quite well. In the first round or two, I typically don't even try to cast anything... though I admit, the style of list I play is pretty much fast & fighty instead of the standard blocked infantry lists.



In my opinion, Vampires are one of the stronger army books out there at the moment. The top ones are Daemons, Vampires, Brets, and Empire. The new Dark Elves have serious potential, but I don't have enough experience on them to talk too much.
 
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