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Feel No Pain help needed Rule Lawyers...

3K views 14 replies 11 participants last post by  Zealous Templar 
#1 ·
Hi, a guy at my local club says that if a shooting attack ignores your normal armour save it ignores your FNP save. e.g. a heavy bolter shoots at a nob biker with a painboy in the unit. As the heavy bolter is AP4 the biker does not get FNP. I don't take this to be correct but he claims that the wording in the rulebook means this. What is the deal?
 
#2 ·
Its only AP1, AP2 and when strength is double the toughness that you don't get a FNP against shooting wounds. Its on page 75 of the rulebook.

You also can't use it in combat for wounds caused by weapons that allow no save e.g. power weapons. You also can't use it for perils of the warp or failed dangerous terrain tests.


I have a unit of nob bikers too, they don't feel much pain :D
 
#4 ·
Lietatus and Miscannon are both right. Maybe you should ask this chap at your club to show you in the rules where it says that his interpretation is correct. That way you get to say "Told you you were wrong" in a nice way, and he gets to learn the rule properly.

E.
 
#7 ·
Actually, the issue is not the exceptions to the rule, it's part of the component rule itself that has led some to take it as not having a save=no FnP. Ahem...

If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound...
This has caused a good bit of confusion as the term unsaved has caused the conclusion that a failed save must occur for the ability to apply. There is a trace of viability to this arguement as the rule could have just as easily been written without it, and the term does have specific implications in game terms as opposed to a generic regular-use term. The other exceptions would still apply in case of the target having a cover save or invul save as well (as the type of save is unspecified).

Not saying right or wrong, just that it can't be dismissed too terribly quickly and if you ask your opponent to "show it to you" this is probably what he'll bring up, so you should be prepared to rebut the above arguement.
 
#8 · (Edited)
That's a really iffy interpretation. An 'unsaved' wound could be a wound that involves a failed save. It could be a wound that doesn't get a save.

Your interpretation as to how it COULD be read could be taken to an extreme. If I'm shot by AP 3 weaponry on a model with a 5+ save, does the difference between taking FNP and not taking it depend on whether or not there's a COVER save involved? So since they take a 4+ cover save, suddenly feel no pain applies, but if they're out in the middle of nowhere, the feel no pain doesn't apply? I'm going to have to say that it doesn't work that way.

Anytime you take an unsaved wound (I'm going to define an 'unsaved' wound as any wound in which a save is failed or cannot be taken), you can make a feel no pain roll. Exceptions to this are listed further down. If an attack doesn't fall under the exception listed, then the model can make a feel no pain roll.
 
#9 ·
<-----Already been in way too many circles with this one

It's not "my" interpretation and I'm not arguing it for two reasons

1. If someone thinks the word was put in intentionally, you aren't going to convince them otherwise

2. If someone doesn't you also aren't convincing them otherwise

Your interpretation as to how it COULD be read could be taken to an extreme. If I'm shot by AP 3 weaponry on a model with a 5+ save, does the difference between taking FNP and not taking it depend on whether or not there's a COVER save involved?
And this is how you turn the arguement around on the individual, put yourself in a position to get cover i.e. for Orks use a mob to screen or stay around the force field until you charge out.

Whatever your thinking though, I've already been through this, so draw whatever conclusion you like.
 
#12 ·
<-----Already been in way too many circles with this one

It's not "my" interpretation and I'm not arguing it for two reasons

1. If someone thinks the word was put in intentionally, you aren't going to convince them otherwise

2. If someone doesn't you also aren't convincing them otherwise



And this is how you turn the arguement around on the individual, put yourself in a position to get cover i.e. for Orks use a mob to screen or stay around the force field until you charge out.

Whatever your thinking though, I've already been through this, so draw whatever conclusion you like.
Or you tell whoever's trying to pull that closed loophole on you to put away their 4th ed rule book and read page 24 paragraph 5 sentence 2.
 
#10 ·
'Unsaved wounds' includes wounds against which no save can be taken. Any wound that gets past the save is an unsaved wound. This is true by definition - only wounds against which a save is passed are saved, so a wound with a failed save or a wound without a save would both be unsaved - and has been shown to be the case within the rules in other instances (for instance, Apothecaries vs high AP weapons). I believe under combat results for assaults it also specifies that only 'unsaved wounds' count for determining who wins the combat, but I don't have a rulebook on hand to confirm that.

I can understand why people might misinterpret 'unsaved wounds' in this respect, but I think that a quick investigation shows the truth.
 
#11 ·
Ok thanks everyone. So the consensus is AP3 and above shooting attacks do not ignore my FNP even if they ignore my armour save? I believe this to be the case but the codex says Ap1 AP2, instant death and power weapons and other weapons that ignore your armour save or something to that effect. How would i convince the guy that his interpretation is simply not correct?
 
#13 ·
...but the codex says Ap1 AP2, instant death and power weapons and other weapons that ignore your armour save or something to that effect. How would i convince the guy that his interpretation is simply not correct?
Take another look at the passage. It's not weapons that ignore *your* armour save, it's weapons that ignore armour saves *in general*. An AP3 weapon may ignore your particular armour save, but it doesn't ignore every other armour save, so it's not a weapon which 'ignores armour saves'.
 
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