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Wych Cult?

2K views 10 replies 8 participants last post by  twofalls 
#1 ·
Ok, so I've decided to settle on a Wych Cult which, to me, seems like the most viable army for DE at the moment. But I would personally like to hear personal opinions about the Wych cult from players and non-players, why they play them and why they don't. So, GO!
 
#2 ·
I've never tried the wych cult for 2 reasons, first and foremost is wyches aren't that much better at killing standard (which is to say, non close combat focused) infantry when compared to standard warriors, especially since I find the Succubus or the sybarite does most of the damage. Wyches are awesome when you thrown them in against power weapon armed units but at 50% more per model than warriors(before wych weapons), I would much prefer the warriors en-masse.

the other thing for me is the restricted units are just excellent, particularly the Incubi retinue of a dark eldar lord which while perhaps not the best unit ever in terms of point efficiency and survivability perform a role that no other unit in the Dark Eldar army can do properly, which is bring lots of high strength power weapons to bear on the enemy. The other lost unit I consider to be quite valuable is the Talos, whos high strength and toughness helps round out the force better in my opinion, not to mention there's nothing I like more than throwing one in melee against troops with nothing but S3.

That is my personaly take on the wych cult, while it's very fluffy and some people like them those drawbacks are too big for me personally.
 
#3 ·
Hey
Interesting that you have decided to setup a Wych Cult. Firstly, let's list the pros and cons of attaining to one:

PROS

  • Close combat oriented
  • Easily overwhelm a certain part of the enemy force
  • Very fast moving
  • Lelith Hesperax
  • More flexibility to include more specialized units (ie. Reavers)
CONS

  • Close combat oriented
  • The inability to incorporate more of our important units
  • Lack of ranged weaponry
  • On average, Ld is slightly lower
  • Sv will get in the way
Hopefully, these have given you a basic insight into a Wych Army. I am not a major expert on them however, I have come to realise that by sticking to a Kabal, it allows for a good balance between what will benefit and what will help those that benefit, benefit. Hope that makes sense. It seems that Wych Cults tend to stick to one whole tactics with a few modifications here and there, while Kabals have a more vast area of effect. However, Wych Cults tend to have an unusual psychological effect on the enemy, (which is how I personally always organise my armies). At first glance, your opponent(s) only ever tend to look at stats. They see the Sv, and laugh. Yet, once the game starts, and you pla your army right, the smile that was once on your foe's face will be turned upside down.

Wych Cults are fun, have a really good demeanour and are awesome in CC, but lack that dramatic effect an army, like a Kabal, should have when you use them. All in all, it is your decision in the end that counts. Post up a list, and you will get even more ideas. However, if you really want the best advice anyone can give, talk to KwiKwag. Apparently, he knows all there is to know.

Fly High!
 
#4 ·
However, if you really want the best advice anyone can give, talk to KwiKwag. Apparently, he knows all there is to know.
Now I wouldn't say that - all I can do is share my experiences. I think there a couple others on this forum that forget more about the DE in a single day than I learn in the last couple years. All that I will say is that I am passionate about the DE and nobodies experience is more valuable than anyone elses. Once you find your "style" of play then you can pick through everyone's brain and find the info that will help you the most - many times my info doesn't "jive" with some others.

Here are my thoughts on the Wych Cult - I am planning on using them at the 2009 Las Vegas GW GT this year and I think I got a good shot to do much better than last year (using a Kabal). Wych Cult was my first army ever and after surfing these forums I can say that my first game ever in a GW game was a victory - so I am slightly biased when it comes to the Wyches.

No doubt that Close Combat in 5th edition has been taken down a notch and the Shooting phase got a lot better. With true line of sight rules, new consolidation rules and new 5th edition codices (making other armies shooting phases better) the Wych Cult took a serious lump on the head. Lately the more "shooty" DE lists have evolved to be mainstream now and the need of more "troop" choices has made wych cult less desirable do to their point cost. Of course, the need to evolve my 4th edition tactics is still on going and I like to think it has evolved for the better (but still on going).

So here is the overall list design that works for me and have had some nice success with so far - in other words, the list works with my style of play.

Archite - By far the best CC HQ in the entire game. I take her solo and I do think that the Archite is better than Lelith at 1750 point games. Although the cost of a punisher Archite is twice the cost of Lelith the multiple combat drugs with the animus vitae she gets to take is worth it to me. She will start with a wych squad on a raider but many times I will send her like a guided missile into the enemy (just like the white rabbit in my avatar).

Dracite - again I like her solo and this Dracite will also start with a wych squad on a raider (rarely with the Archite) but I do not tend to send her alone into the enemy. She is a trouble shooter and she goes where I need the most support.

In a wych cult I do not care for retinues - wych retinues are "would be" troop choices and I would rather have an additional "scoring unit" than an IC that can't be picked out in CC.

Wych squads - at least 4 wych squads on raiders from 1500 point on up. At 1750 I will run 4 of these with a 5th squad on foot coming out of reserves. My 4th edition squad size was usually a total of 8 wyches with 2 blasters and an aggy succubus. This has now evolved to a total of 6 wyches per raider with the same setup. Raiders are usually outfitted with dark lances with horrorfexs and the fexs are there to prevent other enemy units from counter charging the wyches.

The interesting effect of going to 6 wyches is that I can get an additional wych squad into the list (another scoring unit) and when I send 2 squads of wyches at one marine squad I now have 12 wyches with 2 agonisers in the group and this hasn't been over powering the marines. I've noticed that I can reliably knock the marine squad down to 2 or 3 marines with little chance of them doing any real harm to me with a really good chance of defeating them in their own phase. Unlike having the larger wych squads I do have to concentrate in getting the wych squads to work in pairs or altogether. Usually, if a target is just going to be too tough for the ladies then I do have the option of throwing in the Archite or Dracite or both. With this combo I will not fear any enemy CC unit, nothing is too tough for them.

Now the idea that the wyches can't shoot is minor one. I have not had a real problem shooting and the 2 blasters in the squad is quite useful in different ways - I think it makes them a little more efficient in dealing with armor, MC's and super HQ's (as well as "softening" a marine squad before the charge). Let's face it, the low point blaster is a cure-all in most cases. I have had the opportunity to drive a squad of wyches around on a raider and used the raider as a "mini-ravager" - 1 lance shot and 2 blasters can easily be available in my lists whether I am keeping them on the raider or moving 12" and deploying them (I usually keep them on the raider). Yes, they die a horrible death when the raider explodes but you have to use your skillz to keep them alive and use them wisely.

Elites is an interesting part of the list that really hasn't changed in a Wych Cult with 5th edition. They are still the sacrificial "throw down" unit that I send at the enemy hap-hazardly and their job is simple, they are a "distraction" unit first and a "fire-base" unit second. The way I use them is they are geared for shooting and pinning. They start on the board as much as possible and I tend to expose them to draw fire off my scoring units and ravagers. Their raider is sometimes sacrificed to create cover saves or sometimes the raider squad gets off so the wyches can use it themselves. On the 5th turn, if they are still functional, they are to "contest" heavily guarded enemy objectives. Even if the raider is empty with its guns blown off the raider is to go "flat-out" to an objective and naturally pull fire off the wyches. Sure, they are a very "soft" killpoint but I sacrifice them just the same to help the wyches in any way they can. I would like to have them at 6 men but often I am hurting for points and run them at 5. They take the standard blaster and cannon and the Sybarite is outfitted with poison blades and a pinning weapon (xenospasm for one squad and the arch-angel of pain for the other). The raiders are outfitted the same as the wyches raiders with a lance and horrorfex.

The only other elite unit I have used with the list are mandrakes and the one time I used them they ended up killing more any one squad of wyches. Lucky perhaps but the mandrakes also make a great "distraction" unit and tend to target units that would be otherwise a waste to the wyches. The flexibility of where the mandrakes can go makes them a good support unit to the wyches and give a little more "death-by-armor-save" to the combat. I do prefer elites to be a "shooting" unit so I wouldn't entertain them unit I got to 2000 points (and when I run out of raider models).

Fast attack has its place in a wych cult as well but usually the bikes compete with the Raider squads and I give the nod to raider squads first. When I did use them I used them strictly as tank hunters in a 3 bike squad with 2 blasters. Again, they started on the table as a "distraction" unit and I expose them after going "flat-out" straight into the enemy. Idea is draw fire (which they do marvelously) while I am blitzing all my units forward. Believe or not opponents tend to "freak" when bikes are on the board and even though they rarely "popped" anything they have continuously allowed my wych to advance quite successfully. I now longer run them as I prefer the extra raider squad but bikes compliment the cult well.

Heavy support - I run 3 ravagers at 1750. I normally run two ravagers with 3 lances and the third with 3 disintegrators. I may change one 3 lance ravager to 3 disintegrators but I tend to think that the disintegrators compete with the wyches for the same targets. My other "beef" with 3 disintegrators is that I am seeing more land raiders and predators lately and I find the disintegrator to be useless against them. Since I do not like sniper squads and the range of wych blasters to be so short I try to balance the list from crowd control (which is what the wyches are good at) and get some anti-armor in the list. And to top off why I like the 3 lance ravager is mainly to the fact that I SUCK when rolling dark lance shots and often find that I can usually get something "popped" when 3 lances are rolled together. 1 lance of the 3 usually misses and 1 lance usually rolls a "1" at AP and the 3 lance is the one that I pray does something.

The only other nuance that I add to the 3 ravagers is that the 3 dissy ravager usually has screaming jets and the idea there is drop this guy near or behind enemy gun-lines. I usually got something in the enemys back field that is shooting the crap out of me (thunder fire cannon, devastator squads, lootas, etc.,) and getting the ravager behind them can help. I sometimes give this ravager a horrrofex but I am finding that I never use it. I haven't used night shields yet but I am planning on giving them a try soon.


As for game plan, I play a "Raider Rush" "All-mechanized" style list as the cult doesn't have good wwp deploying units (they become too expensive, too squishy and too risky). I use "5th turn grab" strategy where I play the mission at all costs and use the "reserves" religiously to protect my raiders full of wyches especially when I lose first turn and/or facing a shooty army. I do not always take first turn even if I won the roll-off but I do not make that a hard fast rule - terrain, mission, deployment setup and enemy list are all considered before deciding.

So those are my thoughts based on experience and style. This may not be your style of play and by no means is it to represent the "only way" to play wych cult. Simply, the wyches and HQ are dedicated close combat units and the elites and heavy selections are anti-armor primarily and either can support the other when the need arises.

Good luck and happy hunting!
 
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#5 · (Edited)
I knew there was a reason I loved this guy/\.
Just out of curiosity, how do you take objectives with such small squads, or do you just deny them to the enemy/wrest them off it if they already have it?
I'm assuming that you are using warriors as elite choices. What are your thoughts on warp beasts?
 
#7 ·
Just out of curiosity, how do you take objectives with such small squads,
I kinda wonder that myself as you would think 6 wyches on a raider is not much but I have found that having 5 scoring units at this point level is really flexible. I have a lot of freedom to sacrifice 3 wych squads (not to mention 2 raider squads and 3 ravagers) to chew away the enemy troop choices and still have 1 wych squad on a raider to use for claiming far away objectives and have the wyches on foot to claim the closest. I was finding that 3 or 4 scoring units is not enough – I constantly found that I can claim at least one objective while I try to contest the rest and found myself in a lot of “draws”. So yah, I feel that more smaller scoring units is better than fewer large scoring units.

I stick to the mantra that we never play fair and always outnumber your target in close combat and that is no exception. What I have experienced so far with the players I have fought against there are 3 different things an enemy will do in a game:

1. Infilitrators, fast attack and dedicated assault units tend to always move forward at me and or one way or another end up in the midfield (sometimes unsupported).

2. Heavy selections, foot squads and mechanized units start to move in the mid-game

3. Towards the end the enemy’s Troop choices begin to get into position or “dig-in” at the objectives they think they can take.

In my usual set up I start on the board:

2 Raider Squads
1 Wych Squad
1 Ravager (3 lance)

I hide them the best I can their job is to take of #1 items above. Bikers, jetpack squads, truck boyz, scouts, pathfinders, etc.,. I am a little shy with the wyches and will only commit them if the enemy is totally unsupported and has wandered a little to close to me – mostly, I keep them behind and allow the enemy to feel that he can come forward without fear of being charged.

What I like about this approach is that it will expose the “bait” units and they tend to get overly committed and become “lost” as I hardly ever “jump” to take on in CC such weak units. In other words, I let the raider squads move into position to fire along with the ravager and sometimes I even fire the wyches from the raider if its not too risky.

When the middle game begins (#2) I have in reserve:

Archite and Dracite assigned to either 1 wych squad or separate ones.
3 wych squads on raiders
1 wych squad on foot
2 Ravagers

At this point I should have an idea of what my game plan is going to be in getting my wyches into scoring position. If the objectives are far apart or there is not enough terrain to advance my wyches safely then I use the raider squads as a mobile screen. Of course, if the enemy has moved his units to the mid-board or closer then I am thinking of charging them if possible but only if I can out-number the enemy or figure I can win easily. A lot of times this doesn’t happen until turn 3 as in turn 2 I have prioritized my targets and my units are getting ready to attack. Raider Squads attention goes to the slower moving units like Dreadnaughts, tanks and/or loaded transports – these targets need to get popped or I need to put the raider squad between them and where my wyches are going to assault.

One thing I will usually do during the middle game is to dedicate at least one wych squad to a forward position where it can reach the enemy held objective – Idea here is if to get the wych squad and its raider in a position to either contest or claim the objective. If any of the ravagers or raider squads are left I use them to thin the enemy troop choices and use the wyches to either assault the target or I keep them on the raider.

As you may have guessed the foot Wyches are used to enter the game on foot and usually they can easily get to my closest objective (why use a wych squad on a raider?). A lot of times there is an empty raider floating around I sometimes use one of those for them to embark on. Then I have used them as a mini-ravager or use the raider as protection if the enemy does get close to my objective. The main purpose of the foot wyches is claiming the easiest objective and they are supported by the 2 ravagers in the back field.

The two 3 lance ravagers are targeting the long range threats at first and when a loaded transport shows itself I am almost always wanting to cripple the enemy’s movement. Once a rhino is popped the marines are usually stranded and unless they move and “run” they will not be able to shoot or assault – this puts the marine player into a game of denial and my mobility becomes a huge factor. When you pop a rhino you go from being twice as fast as him to four times as fast as him.

Speaking of the 3rd ravager that is a 3 dissy ravager with screaming jets. I only use the screaming jets when I a lot of units are dug in or there is some sort of gun-line being used. This ravager is to target troop choices and if it is still floating it could be used to go flat-out to an enemy objective just to contest. Enemy units trying to shoot it I got a 4+ cover save and units try to assault it will need a 6+. You would think this ravager would a priority target but I find this ravager surviving the game most often and definitely longer than the other 2.

For the end game (#3) I play as if the game ends on Turn 5. I swear this happens 50% of the time and I think every game at the GT ended in the 5th turn as well do to a time limit. Here, I am sending empty raiders to heavily defended enemy objectives and making sure I hold at least one objective. The thing I noticed is that when you flat-out a raider to contest an enemy held objective is that the enemy is now stuck trying to pop the raider. This takes fire power away from that unit as it tries to get rid of my raider. If I can send a raider and a ravager then there is usually little chance that he will destroy both of them.

If the game goes to a 6th turn, I just rinse and repeat as all my raiders should have been moving to send a 2nd wave of contesting raiders.

or do you just deny them to the enemy/wrest them off it if they already have it?
So it’s a little of both – most of the objective getting is done in the 4th and 5th turn as I do not feel the Dark Eldar can hold an objective. The DE are great at “taking away” but once you took it away then you are in a position of “holding” it and giving the option of “taking away” to the opponent. All in all, I want to “take away” the objective and have the game end right there (which explains why I hate the 6th turn or any game that doesn’t use turns).

I'm assuming that you are using warriors as elite choices.
I am not using warriors but Raider Squads and yes they are elite. I used to use 1 raider squad and 2 tank-hunting bike squads but dropping the bikes for another raider squad is totally worth it to me. The bikes worked at one thing and that was they always were a fire magnet and for some reason the enemy “freaks” and decides to pour every gun in the list at them – why?

What are your thoughts on warp beasts?
I have used them once and they did what I thought they would do:

Make an easy kill point.
Kill 2 maybe 3 marines.
Have all attacks directed at them due to their 6+ armor save.

They were great in 4th when you can hide them and use them in WWP lists but now that I no longer use the WWP and points I made above I no longer use them. So until I get a feather stuck up my butt and really try make them work I will not be considering them at all.

As for kill point games - Wych Cult sucks and you might as well pray for a "draw". My list has 18 kill points and I haven't played many kill point games since I have standardized my list.
 
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#6 ·
Kwi's post is a fantastic wych "how-to." In fact, i hope this is stickied somewhere else for easier reference. i've played around with wych cult list before to various results, but always fun. I would do so more often, but like DrunkSpleen mentioned, I just miss my incubi and the occasional talos too much.
 
#8 ·
Kwi's post is a fantastic wych "how-to." In fact, i hope this is stickied somewhere else for easier reference.

Seconded, this is too good to be allowed to fade off the bottom of the page.

Stick it in the Tactica for Archon's sake Kwi!

Good one mate.
 
#9 ·
Thanks for the cult posting, I have a large DEldar army that I just finished painting and am starting to use more than any other army I own in order to learn it well. I have 26 Wytches, so realizing that I was getting close to being able to field a Cult I just ordered the 10 fig Wytch unit from my LGS. 2 blasters per unit with 5 units of Wytches is a lot of blasters... buying such would be prohibitivly expensive. How do you model the additional blasters?
 
#10 ·
How do you model the additional blasters?
You used to be able to buy bitz in small quantities and I remember ordering a bunch of warrior blasters without the warrior.

I ended up using the blasters and its not a perfect switch as there are 2 hands on the warrior blaster when the wyches other arm is no where near the blaster. I just did the best I can.

On my converted Dark Elf Wyches I used 2 blasters from the wych models.

I also tried to mix up the poses by either bending arms around or giving the opposite hand a different weapon.
 
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