Librarium Online Forums banner

How does assaulting transports and the units inside work?

4K views 30 replies 12 participants last post by  ericismyname 
#1 ·
Okay so me and a friend were playing a game last night and i (being a nid player) assaulted a Rhino carrying a squad of plague marines inside, with a broodlord+8 stealer retinue. So needless to say against the rear armour i scored enough hits to penetrate and destroy the vehicle. So this is where the dilemia came from. i automatically assumed that by assualting the transport i was to also assulating the troops inside, and they would then be locked in combat with my squad. he reasoned that the squad should either be independent of the combat or able to consalidate 6" away. I of course didn't want this because then he could waste me away with rapid fire bolters the next shooting phase, and he of course didn't want to be locked in combat with a fully morph'd out squad of stealers and broodlord.

Now i've looked through the codex and other forums as well and couldn'y find it. i apologize if i overlooked it in either sense. so please if someone could aid in clearing up this conflict it would be appreciated.

As far as my oppinion, i would assume that being the transport for the troops once engaging with the transport, while a vehicle, would also constitue engaging the squad itself. From a fluff stand point it seems unrealistic for a squad of marines to be able to walk away from a ripped open vehicle that was previously covered in genestealers...
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Well the embarked squad is independent to the vehicle and at the time the vehicle was attacked they were not on the table and therefore immune to assaults and shooting.

If the vehicle was classed as ‘Destroyed’ at the end of the round of combat that is the end of your turn so you get to do nothing further with that unit.

But the opponent must immediately disembark if the vehicle is Destroyed/Wrecked within 2” (not a 6” consolidation move as this is for the victor of an assault only), or if the vehicle is Destroyed/Explodes placed where the vehicle used to be and in both cases take a pinning test.

What happens next is dependant on this test.

Oh, and welcome to the boards!
 
#3 ·
Well yes i would agree that i shouldn't be able to begin a new assault with the squad that emerged from the wrecked vehicle in that phase it just seems they shouldn't be able to leave the assaulting squad in the same way that units in CC can't leave a combat. Because it seems to me that the squad exiting the vehicle would be placed in coherency with my squad automatically putting them into combat as i had "piled in" around the vehicle.

Also from a realistic stand point (i know it is ultimately just a game but...) if a bunch of stealers were hacking their way into a rhino full of marines it would be impossible for them to exit the vehicle without assaulting the stealers.

Ultimately i just wanted to avoid giving the marines the chance to exit the vehicle whereupon the next turn they'll move 6" and rapid fire the hell out of my squad. I'd be okay with the combat of the emerging marines being dealt with in the next assault phase but it seems they shouldn't be able to just get up and walk away....
----------
PS. Thanks for the welcoming, i've always crusied this site but this question finally motivated me to join :)
 
#4 ·
The point here is to consider that your declared assault is against the vehicle only and you have no power to invoke ‘locking’ onto something you did not assault.

The marines will have risks involved here though so it’s not all their own way, you could have assaulted the vehicle first saw how this evolved and perhaps used another unit to mop up, or you might have entirely surrounded the 2” perimeter zone so that they were destroyed by being unable to disembark or the vehicle could have suffered a Destroyed/Explodes result with the passengers taking damage.
 
#5 ·
Yeah, if you have the numbers to surround the vehicle, do it. If you destroy it and the enemy can't disembark because it is surrounded, they are destroyed.
If you cover the exit hatches, I believe they must make an emergency disembarkation test. (need to verify this for you though)
 
#10 ·
The 'rest of the turn' is the player turn by default but here the action of emergency disembarking is a reaction instead and one done in the opponents turn.

So as Deris said you are pinned with no test involved and with the addition of not being able to break it, thereby you can not do anything for that turn.
 
#8 ·
That's because a vehicle can be destroyed outside of combat and could be surrounded by other things such as other friendly troops, vehicles etc.

For example - if it was hit by a scattering plasma cannon in the players shooting phase. They'd be pushed out, pinned and can't shoot etc.
 
#11 ·
It's worth noting, though, that if units "emergency disembark" on an opponents' turn, in response to the transport being destroyed, the "turn" on which they can't do anything is the opponent's turn--turn refers to player turn by default, according to page 9--they're free to act normally once it gets around to your turn.

It's actually pretty difficult to annihilate a unit by surrounding their transport and destroying it, and it's similarly difficult to even significantly discomfit them. They can just emergency disembark--which gives them a huge area into which they can be placed--and be just fine when it comes around to your turn.

And, no. The unit which disembarks from the destroyed combat is not locked in combat with the unit which destroyed the transport in combat. The embarked unit and the transport are two entirely separate units. In fact, the models in the embarked unit cannot be placed within 1" of enemy models while disembarking.
 
#12 ·
Okay so i guess i agree that i can't be locked in assault with the units inside the transport. but i could attack the rear armour of the rhino, and assuming i rolled a "wrecked" on the damage table, could use my 6 inch consolidation move to then surround the vehicle allowing for no 1 inch margin for enemy models to be placed automatically destroying them. Correct?

i generally field rather sizable squads of stealers so it'd be fairly easy to fan out and surround the rhino as long as i can use my consoldiation movement to get around to the front part of the rhino before the troops inside are allowed to make their emergency disembark movemnet. so really it'd be a question of which has priority to happen first, the troops disembarking or my consolidation movement.

the only reason i personally wouldn't want to surround the vehicle when assaulting it, is because i would like to all aim my attacks at the rear armour as apposed to spreading it out along each side of the armour.
 
#13 · (Edited)
No.

You don't get a consolidation move after destroying a vehicle.

You only get to consolidate after killing a unit of models which have a weapon skill value.

If you also fought and beat a non-vehicle or walker unit in the same combat in which the tank was destroyed, you could get a consolidate move, but even then the embarked models would disembark before you'd get your consolidate.

It is possible, with enough models and good enough placement of those models, to prevent an entire squad from disembarking and thus destroy it--however, it's not particularly easy to do, and it can't be done with a consolidation move.

Also, every attack in close combat against a vehicle hits the rear armour regardless of the position of the attacking models relative to the vehicle.
 
#14 ·
Wait really? where abouts does it state that in the rules? oh i had no idea. cause in that case i can simply just encircle the transport when assaulting it and the units inside would be destroyed then. alright well thats an acceptable substitute. for obvious reasons i wouldn't want to use my stealers to crack open rhinos if they are just going to get shot up as soon as the enemy troops disembark.

Thanks
 
#15 ·
The rule which states that you don't get to consolidate after fights with vehicles is on page 63 of the BRB:

"At the conclusion of a round of close combat against a vehicle, there is no combat result, and so there are no sweeping advances, no pile-in and no consolidation moves."

But, yes. If you surround the Rhino sufficiently with your 'stealers during their assault move, you can effectively stop them from disembarking and potentially kill the whole unit.

Remember, too, though, that there are two "vehicle destroyed" results: wrecked and exploded. If the vehicle is wrecked, they disembark as normal. If the vehicle explodes, they get placed on the table where the vehicle was--which means there will be at least some space for some of their guys (though not very much, if we're talking about a completely-surrounded Rhino) and any of them that fit into that space without being within 1" of one of your stealers would be destroyed.

Anyway, good luck! I certainly understand the importance of getting these rules down pat for the 'Nid player--close combat is about your only effective method of anti-tanking.
 
#17 ·
I dont get a thing though,you must surround the whole vehicle for the troops inside to be destroyed?If you leave the front of the rhino only from were the hell will they disembark?Are you sure you need only surround the access points?

I wouldnt be really surprised though a lot of rules are without common sense.
 
#22 ·
I have seen similar questions to the one I am about to ask, but never an answer.

In 5th ed... if marines are using the rhino top ports to shoot out of... is the vehicle considered an open-top transport when resolving the damage table?

-More so, if it IS considered an open top vehicle because of two marines shooting, can the inside troops assault after a disembarkation... as this is allowed from an open top vehicle?

More in line with this thread.... if a vehicle destroyed result is rolled... and troops can disembark into the space which was once occupied by the vehicle.. do they also suffer from the explosion?

Thanks and great topic!

~R
 
#23 · (Edited)
Pilot00 – just treat the vehicle as ‘Open Topped’ for the event of am emergency evac as the passengers will get out which way they can.

And RobinD – A Rhino is never classed as ‘Open Topped’ unless it says it is (and it doesn’t.)
From my old memory there used to be a rule stating that if a model was firing from a point with less than a 3+ armour then it was classed as Open Topped, page 64 BGB or 4th Ed.

If a vehicle suffered a –
• Destroyed – Wrecked result the passengers disembark ‘beside’ the place where the vehicle was,
• Destroyed – explodes result the passengers disembark ‘on’ the place where the vehicle was, and yes they do suffer form the explosion (page 67).

Thanks.
 
#24 ·
okay so with the pinning/entangling thing for the troops does the turn they can't do anything in, take places during their turn or mine? obviously if i am destroying the vehicle in my turn they wouldn't be doing anything anyways. so i assume that means in the turn following the vehicle being destroyed the marines can't do anything and must remain inactive as if they failed a pinning test, even if they are fearless (and i my example they would be since i was playing against a solely plague marine force)

Amirite?
 
#26 ·
Well yes if the transport is destroyed via a "wrecked" on the damage table then the marines inside do a "emergency disembark" where you would then place the models anywhere around the vehicle within 2inches from the hull. The unit is only destroyed if all of the models can not be placed anywhere within this 2" area around the hull (and 1in from enemy models) i.e. enemy models occupy the space.

However if the vehicle is destroyed via a "explodes" roll on the damage table then the vehicle is removed from the table and the models can be placed where the vehicle previously was. In both instances though the squad will be "pinned" regardless of any USRs they may have such as fearless.

What im a little fuzzy on is if your rolling several dice for the damage table (like when i have several attacks that penetrated armour with my stealers) and you have both wrecked, and explodes, results which takes precidence over the other? is it which ever option occurs the most in the roll? or does the highest result automatically overrule all other effects
 
#27 ·
What im a little fuzzy on is if your rolling several dice for the damage table (like when i have several attacks that penetrated armour with my stealers) and you have both wrecked, and explodes, results which takes precidence over the other? is it which ever option occurs the most in the roll? or does the highest result automatically overrule all other effects
If you get an explodes, it overrides the wrecked results.
Rolls of 1-4 all stack. (i.e. you can have several weapon destroyed results and a shaken result applied from the round of your hits)
 
#28 ·
I agree with GhettoBlood_Drinka on how disembarking is done and as to the vehicle damage results fighting for precedence, just treat this like any other assault (page 63 ‘Launching an assault.’)
 
#29 ·
So the entire unit is only lost if you can not get every single model within 2" of th ehull and 1" or more away from an enemy model?

So for example if you can get 9 guys within the paremeters, but not the 10th model, than you lose all 10 models?
 
#30 ·
I would say that its all or nothing here as the rules for Embarking and Disembarking only work for whole units (page 66 under the heading of ‘Embarking’) and to a lesser extent disembarking/embarking is classed as movement and in that phase you must keep coherency at all times (page 12 under the heading ‘Unit Coherency.)

Cheers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ericismyname
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top