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Calling all seers! Help needed

922 views 12 replies 6 participants last post by  niraco 
#1 ·
Hi there, in my local gaming group i am one of the better players and can usually beat most things my opponents have. There is 1 guy however who the best i have done in about 5 games is draw. At the moment its probably 3 draw 2 losses. So my question is, can you help me devise some basic principles or a list idea to beat his? He runs 2x lash so don't feel too bad about tailoring too

In 1750 he runs 4x CSM Termis, with combi-meltas, defiler, 2x obliterators, landraider with 9x beserkers and a lash sorceror inside, 2x 10 man CSM squads in rhinos with melta guns and a daemon prince with lash. We are playing 1500 and unsure what he will drop to get there however he will be using these models.

I have nearly everything at my disposal in the eldar codex. Here are my ideas and stuff from theoryhammer and the matches i have played.

1. Go mech - so i can try to take control of the speed and flow of the game and pick who i fight.

2. Take runes of warding on 1-2 seers to counter the lash. Mech also reduces his effectiveness of the lash.

I have the idea of something with a 6x warlock and farseer seer council, dragons in serp, avengers in serp, prism or 2 or 3. We will be playing normal missions.

Here is my challenge to you? Can you think of a viable strategy against this pretty solid CSM list. I havent gone full mech against him yet and think that could be the answer however i would still much appreciate ideas, feedback etc. Cheers guys and thanks in advance. And plenty of reps for good ideas. We will be playing in 2 days
 
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#2 ·
He has an elite army. flood him with tanks and troops.

I`s say storm guardians with flamers and warlocks, banshees, serpents all the way.
You could take an avatar to make your troops fearless. Doom is also a good thing. Oblits can be taken out with shining spears/seercouncil due to fast redeployment or scorpions due to infiltrate.
runes of warding is a nice thing to annoy your adversary.

I don`t remember if termies or berzek are troop choices, but i know how badly are rhinos as transports if are countered by very mobile forces. you can destroy his forces inside the transport by simply encircle the rhino. He is small enought for the enemy not beeing able to emergency disembark and respect the 1" rule of distance. So the second turn can be devastating for his troops with careful deployment of serpents and assault troops.

Go mech or go shooty. very shooty.

use cheap units like guardians to delay their assaults and use counterattack close combat units when he engaged in CC with your decoys.

Use reapers. Really use them. Tempest launcher+crackshots = 4-5 dead marines per turn. Transform that in berzekers and you can wipe the squad fast.

if you do not like reapers use eldarzilla lists. Avatar +3 wraithlords = 4 units that can break that land raider apart, can break in pairs any of the tactical squads or the termies squads..

Or use a saim hann list. fast serpents and vypers and prisms. Keep him at range. when he get close just run away 24"

His list has weaknesses. Use them.
 
#3 ·
Hey there, some great advice here. Particularly with the saim hainn. The problem i hasve i that in order to mow down the marines inside i need to pop the rhinos and the khorne bezekrs, a landraider. Also he usually deploys his oblits in buildings and is good enough to know to remain 13 inches from each side if he sees i have outflanking striking scorpions. I find shining spears are overpriced particularly at this smallsih point range. Also if i take banshees and go close i will wipe one squad but be counter charged and wiped. His list is built for the counter charge. This could work advantageously if he piles out to eliminate them but again there is the problem of the banshees getting to the troops inside in the first place. As i said i am favouring mech, saim hainn as you suggested because i can try and get his forces more spread out then turbo to one side and isolate single rhinos without much in the form of counter charges. Great idea about surrounding the transports and i will try this tactic with the seer council which i am pretty sure i will use. Thanks and i repped for for your great help so far. Cheers! Keep it coming guys i need all the help i can get!
 
#4 ·
One of the units that I've found useful in recent games against mounted armies is a falcon with EML and a guideseer inside. Its expensive but I've found its worth it. Heres why against your opponent:

1) It has a very high chance of stopping his rhinos. With 3 TL st 8 shots its going to get at least 1 pen hit per turn (and probably more, I usually get at least 2 pen/glances per turn).

2) Given there are no rhinos to shoot at, it is an excellent counter to obliterators, even if they are in cover, if they fail their cover save they are instintly killed.

3) Given there are no oblits, or you are worried, it is an excellent anti-terminator weapon. Again, the AP 2 is great.

I also believe the defiler is armour 12, so it would be useful against that as well. Throw 5 DA inside with the guideseer and you've got a mobile troop choice. Throw holofields on it and you've got a mobile, durable troop choice.

Now obviously the drawback is the cost. However, if you use it right and try to keep it out of all of the firing lanes of the enemy I think it would be worth it.


I would definately recommend the runes of witnessing, to help stop the lash.


Maybe a list along the lines of...

Farseer with guide, RoW

2x 6 jetbikes, 2x cannon with warlock with embolden

5 DA (to go in falcon)

10 scorpions in a serpent with cannon

6 dragons in a serpent with cannon

2 prisms

1 falcon - eml, holofields


I'm not exactly sure what that comes out to but it should be around if not under 1500 points. Then you've got 2 troops to go out and attack and one to sit on your objective. Also everything is fast so you can hopefully attack part of his army at once, especially if you make good use of LOS blocking terrain.

Hope this helps!
 
#5 ·
One of the units that I've found useful in recent games against mounted armies is a falcon with EML and a guideseer inside. Its expensive but I've found its worth it. Heres why against your opponent:

1) It has a very high chance of stopping his rhinos. With 3 TL st 8 shots its going to get at least 1 pen hit per turn (and probably more, I usually get at least 2 pen/glances per turn).

2) Given there are no rhinos to shoot at, it is an excellent counter to obliterators, even if they are in cover, if they fail their cover save they are instintly killed.

3) Given there are no oblits, or you are worried, it is an excellent anti-terminator weapon. Again, the AP 2 is great.

I also believe the defiler is armour 12, so it would be useful against that as well. Throw 5 DA inside with the guideseer and you've got a mobile troop choice. Throw holofields on it and you've got a mobile, durable troop choice.

Now obviously the drawback is the cost. However, if you use it right and try to keep it out of all of the firing lanes of the enemy I think it would be worth it.


I would definately recommend the runes of witnessing, to help stop the lash.


Maybe a list along the lines of...

Farseer with guide, RoW

2x 6 jetbikes, 2x cannon with warlock with embolden

5 DA (to go in falcon)

10 scorpions in a serpent with cannon

6 dragons in a serpent with cannon

2 prisms

1 falcon - eml, holofields


I'm not exactly sure what that comes out to but it should be around if not under 1500 points. Then you've got 2 troops to go out and attack and one to sit on your objective. Also everything is fast so you can hopefully attack part of his army at once, especially if you make good use of LOS blocking terrain.

Hope this helps!
Thanks that list comes to just under 1250 points i think. You mean runes of warding by the way. Your scoring bunker set up with falcon works out at 315 points and will statiscally penetrate 1.125 against a rhino in the open. if i give all vehicles spirit stones and star engines its 1300 points. Last 200 points i could add 2x TLEML for anti rhino on the serps. 140 left. Then i could get 2x Vypers with 2x Eml and 1x Underslung shuriken cannon for 140. That means i let loose with 5 str 8 bs3 twin-linked and 2 str 8 bs3 shots. Great idea. Thanks alot
 
#6 ·
I think your best bet would be to go in the 3 Prism mech list direction, not only are Prisms wonderful for taking out daemon princes with lash (S10 AP1 Twin Linked) they can also take down anything else your opponent throws at you. Plus, if you have a mech list with everything in Wave Serpents, he can't touch you with Lash as it doesn't work on tanks. My 1500pt mech list that hasn't lost a single battle yet among the 25-30 odd games I've played, and I have fought dual-Lash lists and won. It looks something like this:

Farseer - Doom, Mind War (with Dire Avengers)
Farseer - Singing Spear, Doom (with Dire Avengers)

6 Banshees - Exarch, Mirrorswords, Serpent

10 DA - Exarch, Twin ASC, Bladestorm, Serpent
10 DA - Exarch, Twin ASC, Bladestorm, Serpent

5 Warp Spiders - Exarch, Twin DS, Powerblades

Fire Prism
Fire Prism
Fire Prism

Obviously you don't have to use that list exactly (that would be stealing ;)) but the fundamental basis of it is pretty much undefeatable and I suggest you use something similar at least.

~ DiW
 
#7 ·
DiW you should try to suggest a list that doesn't revolve around 2+ prisms, 2+ farseers and all the rest of your troops in serpents for once =P.

Although I do give you props for including the warp spiders

Plus if its unbeatable why do people take seer council lists over this build at major tournaments?
 
#10 ·
DiW you should try to suggest a list that doesn't revolve around 2+ prisms, 2+ farseers and all the rest of your troops in serpents for once =P.
Well, that's the best kind of list there is ;)

Although I do give you props for including the warp spiders
Why thankyou :p

Plus if its unbeatable why do people take seer council lists over this build at major tournaments?
I don't know, but this list has won more tournaments than any seer council list I've ever come across, and it's also completely wiped the floor with more than one seer council list I could think of :)

Perhaps some people are just delusional...

~ DiW
 
#8 · (Edited)
Agaisnt such a list you should deffinetly go all mechanizid, thus rendering his lash blast weapon combo less usefull. Further more use a farseer with runes of warding against the lash, and since its marines use banshees, if you have the models and can fit them in your list two full sguards in serpents would do wonders.

My sugestion would be:

Farseer, runes of warding, doom, - goes with a banshee squard.

9 banshees, exarch, executioner.
- wave serpent, spirit stones, twin bright lances.
9 banshees, exarch, executioner.
- wave serpent, spirit stones, twin bright lances.

10 dire avengers, exarch, dual cats, blade storm.
- wave serpent, spirit stones, twin scatter laser.
10 dire avengers, exarch, dual cats, blade storm.
- wave serpent, spirit stones, twin scatter laser.

Fire prism.
Fire prism.

thats 1501 pts. if he wont allow that one point too much downgrade one scatter laser or remove one of the dual cat upgrade.
But the list should deffinetly make you able counter the dual lash list, and make you able to dominate both shooting and CC.
 
#9 ·
Chaos Space marines are just dressed up overpriced marines with a few different tricks. Heh...and we are designed to kill Space marines.

Things I like to bring to the plate....
hq Either Eldrad or a farseer moderately kitted far seer with doom and guide and at least spirit stones. He rides with a squad of dire avengers in wave serpent circling the battle field looking for prey. Between doom and guide plus bladestorm (if you really want insurance). What you get is an infantry denial unit....swoop in and remove whatever suites your fancy.
Elites- Howling Banshees in a wave serpent and an exarch with an executioner (honestly with 10 of these ladies you have enough strength 3 power weapons... a few at strength 5 brings just a little extra hitting power and can come in handy). I feel its safe to assume you know what to do with them;)
6 Fire dragons in a falcon armed with shuri cannon and a bright lance- this unit can kill off the land raider or the termi squad, or put a dent in anything really. (if you have the models I'd take 2 of these squads)

Troops apart from the farseers squad of dire avengers i would put in 1 more squad of the fellas in a serpent. Then with left over points a squad of rangers just to have sitting on an objective and act as bait.



Fast- Vypers with left over points, mix it up with bright lances and star cannons... Remember they make fantastic darts.
Heavy- Other than the two falcons, I'd include a wraith lord with a bright lance and maybe a wraithsword of the hell of it. He's there to soak fire and not much else, if he gets to kill something he's doing more then we require...we just want the chaos player to divert some fire from or more precious aspect warriors.

The idea here is to either throw so many shots at a unit that it has no choice but to die ( the dire avengers) or just hit it with low ap high strength weapons and melt the traitors down to slag, im not so sure how many points this is... but the general idea is pretty simple. Draw him in, as he moves in pick off his hqs and obliteraters and encircle/ out maneuver him before jumping out saying "SURPRISE!" then moving on with your life. The farseer unit is your "vorpal sword" or whatever else you want to call it. If you spring for eldrad then you have doom guide and fortune all in one turn and have signed an execution warrant for any of their targets.
Anywho I hope this was at least somewhat useful and not horribly redundant good luck
 
#11 ·
DiW list is a very good one for a guy who knows how to use that one. On the same basis is Wack list.

Both are mobile lists that simply pop a flank of enemy army, then move to the other flank or the center depending where is weaker, kill what is there and last turns just play with the remains of enemy army that still is wondering what the hell happened.

Is one of the main eldar strenghts. The ability to redeploy fast where the enemy is weaker, use concentrated firepower to kill parts of enemy army before the rest is able to respond.

OP should always remember Serpents move 24" while rhino only 12 = you can outrun all the battlefield their transports concentrate on what objective is weaker and contest the others.

Try for example Fritz tactics of Saim hann against necrons last week. look on Way of Saim Hann blog Way of Saim-Hann: How I Play Saim-Hann Eldar Warhammer 40,000. He is a seer council guy but the center distraction attack can be formed by scorpions infiltrated, weak storm guardians units, or even delay tactics leaving the enemy initiative in center and delay his movements with long range firepower, pinning weapons and counter attack units.

have your tactics fluid and simply wipe units in weaker parts of enemy line and then redeploy.
 
#12 ·
DiW list is a very good one for a guy who knows how to use that one. On the same basis is Wack list.

Both are mobile lists that simply pop a flank of enemy army, then move to the other flank or the center depending where is weaker, kill what is there and last turns just play with the remains of enemy army that still is wondering what the hell happened.

Is one of the main eldar strenghts. The ability to redeploy fast where the enemy is weaker, use concentrated firepower to kill parts of enemy army before the rest is able to respond.

OP should always remember Serpents move 24" while rhino only 12 = you can outrun all the battlefield their transports concentrate on what objective is weaker and contest the others.

Try for example Fritz tactics of Saim hann against necrons last week. look on Way of Saim Hann blog Way of Saim-Hann: How I Play Saim-Hann Eldar Warhammer 40,000. He is a seer council guy but the center distraction attack can be formed by scorpions infiltrated, weak storm guardians units, or even delay tactics leaving the enemy initiative in center and delay his movements with long range firepower, pinning weapons and counter attack units.

have your tactics fluid and simply wipe units in weaker parts of enemy line and then redeploy.
Hey guys thanks for everything i ended up running a squad of banshees, dragons, 2x avengers all in serps with eldrad and 3x naked prisms and pulled off a....draw....i'll get him next time....
 
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