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Help against Eldar

1K views 21 replies 9 participants last post by  Sancraer 
#1 ·
My friend plays eldar and I lose to him almost everytime, I'm sure this is my tactics because i have used a variety of lists multiple times and I still can't win. Strangely, he usually runs a gunline force, which seems to be out o date in 5ed.
Anyway, his army list at 1500 is something like:

Eldrad (sometimes small seer council)
Maugan ra/Avatar/ farseer (fortune and guide usually)

10 Dire Avengers
10 Guardians with a bright lance
Rangers

Sometimes scorpions or spiders

2 Squads of Dark reapers (sometimes replaces a squad with warwalkers with starcannons/ eldar missile launchers/ bright lance.
Wraithlord, sword and shoulder weapon (AT)

Other stuff that I can't remember or that varies.


When I played a mech list the few anti-tank weapons he has pop a few and then when i get close = singing spears and cc against vechiles death. My troops then get dark repeared.
Non-mech=dark reapers and star cannons
Shooty = outshooted
Drop pod, thiI expected this one to do awesome but I coudn't get past fortune during shooting and then got hit by nearly his whole army, got tabled.

I think the main reason that I can't win is that every unit is fortuned (2 per player turn by eldard and an extra on each player turn if another farseer). I tried to negate this with librarian but all his powers were negated (runes of warding), his hood only stopped half the powers at the most and he was a priority target so got shot.
Also my friend is freakishly lucky at 5+ svs (guardian cover, etc. etc.) and tempest launcher with crack shots doesn't let sm suvive.

Is any one experienced at beating eldar powers or a list like this. If so please post help. Thanks
 
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#2 ·
Well, why do you intend to come close then, if you say yourself that the problems start as soon as you close in on him? His army only has three troops choices, two of them very fragile. And his army is rather immobile. It's only natural you can't win if you invest into mobility (points that he only invests in stationary firepower) but only use that mobility to close in on him, playing to his advantage. Why don't you go into hiding and or try to gain superiority at range?

Two thirds of all games should be objectives games. So he's bound to move about the battlefield at some time. If you just hide and wait for him to make a move I'm sure you could accomplish much more. Try to kill off his troops choices - he needs those to win objectives missions. A whirlwind would be perfect. Incendiary ammo ignores armor and cover on both guardians and rangers while still wounding on a 3+ with a large blast template. That is awesome. Normal whirlwind ammo can also deny the dire avengers their armor save and also cover as long as they aren't within area terrain (due to cover being measured from the center of the blast marker in the case of an indirectly firing barrage weapon). And the whirlwind can do all that from complete hiding! Try it...

Also: his dark reapers have pretty good range, but their weapons are of relatively low strength, so not very dangerous for vehicles. The bright lance is a bit short-ranged. So at 48" you could gain superior firepower and all the more force him to come towards you. Try many many missile launchers, particularly mobile ones who can pull back when he advances and still shoot him. Typhoon landspeeders come to mind, but predators are fine too. (And again - don't forget the whirlwind.) Krak missiles are perfect for downing the avatar and wraithlord (and any warwalkers).

Against the psychic powers you may want to try out an allied inquisitor. He's cheaper than a librarian and his psychic hood has no range limitation. You could keep him in the back and in safety and still force almost half of the Eldar's powers to fail.


If those tips weren't useful to you please explain how a typical game between the two of you goes. Tell us who deploys in what way and who moves what where when, etc. Then we can pinpoint weak links in your tactics and provide additional advice.
 
#3 ·
Red Archer knows his stuff and I agree. Another concept to think about is to make him play your game as opposed to playing his. Decied what units you are going to take and why. Think objective and think what a certain unit will do for you on the battle field. Plan what will take objectives/contest, what will assist that process and what will do killing/distraction.

Typhoons are great. 2 missile shots plus heavy bolter per turn. They are lethal, can be kept at a distance and can find targets with ease.

A drop pod or two will give him thinks to think about. You both set up, you see where his reapers are (be great if they are on or near an objective) and drop a sternguard unit on them or even a tac unit. 10 bolters on rapid are lethal. I'm not suggesting this is the best tactic all the time as each game is different but the concept of destabilising an opponent is very important. Make him focus his efforts on something that is important but can't actually win the game. Give him something he can't ignore. Sternguard or terminators in his back line will run amock unless he turns valuable resources to deal with them.

Heavy flamers also have a very good place in your army against soft and squishy eldar.
 
#4 ·
Thanks, the problem with droppodding is that it seems to do nothing.

A tin bit of really quick maths for sternguard against reapers, lets say using AP3 rounds.
10 sternguard = 6, 2/3 hits
3s to wound = 4 (maybe 5)
4+ cover (he always puts them in cover) with rerolls = one dies?

35 pts killed by 285pt unitwho then get reapered or charged by counter-assualt meaning i've silenced one guns.

However, the waiting for him is a good idea, if he takes a rocket on his reapers he hasn't got a tempest launcher and if he doesn't then my transports wokr, thanks. I'm planning on investing on a whirlwind as they sound cool. I've also heard good stuff about the landspeeder typhoon, may look into them.

His two deployments are
a) 2 Straight lines, eldrad in the middle, mic in the counter assualt units to cover al army, trys and gets as much in cover as possible.
b) smaller shooting line, moves avatar, wraithlord and sometimes guardians up, scorpions infiltrate, sometimes takes a wave serpent for DA when doing this.

Thanks for comments so far, I'll try them out as soon as I get some new stuff and see how they go.

p.s. another problem with this list is that the he has got units that like to advance and if they don't die my line sometimes gets killed, however this was before i went mech so transports will probs help with that.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Thanks, the problem with droppodding is that it seems to do nothing.

A tin bit of really quick maths for sternguard against reapers, lets say using AP3 rounds.
10 sternguard = 6, 2/3 hits
3s to wound = 4 (maybe 5)
4+ cover (he always puts them in cover) with rerolls = one dies?
Wrong rounds for the job. The poison rounds are the ones to use against nearly all units. I play eldar loads and the sternguard unit I use for the job tends to have 2 x heavy flamers and 2 x combi melta.

Squad pods in and combat squads most of the time. Pod placed so as to minimise return fire and/or slow assaulting troops down. Heavy flamers open up with 3 bolter guys and firing Heavy Flamers. That will be 6 HF hits wounding on 2's and potentially 6 poison round shots wounding on 2's. That will be 10 hits using maths and stats with 1 or two failed wounds leaving 8 or 9 wounds. A three man Reaper team is gone.

If the other combat squad jons in then they have had it. However, they tend to shoot up armour or a Wraithlord or an Avatar really easy. Lets say a Wraithlord is the target. You colud fire all poison rounds hitting with 7-8 rounds wounding on 2's. That'd be 6 saves to take. Couple that with a Las cannon or two and its gone.

Finally, tactics. Maths and stats are one thing but application of pressure and psycology are another. Lets say the squad killed some stuff but after turn 3 they were all gone. Many might say, 'well they are just rubbish'. They are if you used them badly but if they meant that your opponent had to use large ammount s of valuable resources to get rid then they served a great purpose. That of making the enemy ignore the rest of your army. I also tend to stick a Librarian with mine who has Gate and the template power (forgot it's name). Means they can jump about upto 24" and template all those soft units.
 
#9 · (Edited)
A tin bit of really quick maths for sternguard against reapers, lets say using AP3 rounds.
10 sternguard = 6, 2/3 hits
3s to wound = 4 (maybe 5)
4+ cover (he always puts them in cover) with rerolls = one dies?

35 pts killed by 285pt unit who then get reapered or charged by counter-assualt meaning i've silenced one guns.
More like drop podding in rapid fire range, bwhind their cover. So

20 shots
13.33 hits
8.66 wounds
AP 3 3+ save

So almost 9 men would be killed, plus the pod

2 shots
1.33 hits
0.86 wounds
0.28 kills

So a total of 8.94 kills against the 5 man dark reaper squad. You could combat squad the sternguard and try to hit both units, even if 1 or 2 survive that's a hell of a lot of his firepower gone.

The Emperor Protects
 
#5 · (Edited)
When facing an eldar army like this i use a Predator with chronos side sponser heavy bolters and main autocannon its pretty much gaurented to kill a squad oif troop each turn. And your right your friend runs a gun line which is out of date only army thats still supposed to do this is necrons. Also i love using master of forge in this situation with a conversion beam which hits at str 10 ap 1 with a blast he cost 120 pts and it shoots up to 72 inc Also if your playing defensive game you can bolster defenses of one piece of terrian around you say the terrian is 3+ cover it goes to 2+ and he can fix tanks.

O and to add on to what red archers saying you can get a null rod which makes any squad he joins immune to all physic powers. making the inquisitor cost 40 pts.
 
#8 · (Edited)
That explains a lot. My local GW is half an hour away so we tend to play on my board and I've been poor since I started it, luckily I have started to amend this with proxy terrain until i make/buy more.
On another note: Are vindicators worth it here, I normally take a few in my other lists and they do well, especially as a scare factor?
Fast attack wise, what is the best options. At the moment I have 5 assualt marines, flamer and powerfist; a 5 manvanguard all with twin-linked lightning claws and sergeant with thunder hammer (315pts I'm guessing its not this one) and some attack bikes with multi-meltas. Planning on getting some landspeeders

If it helps we play 1500-2500pt games on a 6x4 board, with mountain in one corner, small fort in other and river throught the middle. Bastion, homemade buildings and cardboard for moveable terrain. (All this is going to be junglefied so tactics for utilising cover against his list would be greatly appreciated).

Thanks for all the help so far and I hope you can be willing to keep sending more.

p.s. the reaper squad is almost always fortuned so 8-9 wounds only kill two and he usually runs squads of 5. But as you pointed out there good against MCs etc. so I'll try and get them a drop pod or/and a libby with gate
 
#11 ·
In answer to your question, yes, vindicators are brilliant. Their range may seem small, but they can easily be in range to fire first turn (6" move first after all). They can be perfect anti reaper weapons, and as long as you can keep the bright lances of it, the reapers wont last long even with their 4+ cover save, nor will they be able to scratch the front armor (fortune may still be a problem). Another nice way to handle reapers is a unit of bikes with a powerfist, into combat as fast as humanly possible (or any unit getting into combat with them will do, aslong as theres a power weapon and you get into combat FAST)

Fighting an enemy like eldar is all about target priority. The seer council may seem like the biggest threat, but you will have a terrible time of it trying to kill them. Heavy bolters are a brilliant way to grind them down, but there really is no quick fix for a unit like a seer council. Identify the units that give you problems, and figure a way to kill them with as little application of force as possible, while not ignoring the smaller threats. Its obviously an easy thing to say, but not so easy to do.

A drop podding dreadnought is also a great way to disrupt his whole line. Land it beside his reapers, and they will be forced to run away, or he will at least be forced to focus his anti-armor firepower on the dread (which you can drop into the same piece of terrain as the reapers affording you a huge amount of survivability).

Your anti-tank fire should be focused on his transports to begin with, as you want to limit his mobility, while maintaining as much of your own as possible. The wraithlord deserves some attention but only its it is posing a threat (in assault range soon, or taking a toll with its range).

One of the most important things is not to get obessesed with one target (i.e. the seer council). That and practice alot :p
 
#12 ·
Thanks, forgot about rapid firing, but they stil have cover and fortune. I guess the reapers are priority target, (1500pts they killed 600pts of mine, at least) drop podding dread might work, it depends on how lucky his rolls are (eg. guardian bright lance against lr, rolls a 6 to hit, then 6 to penetrate then 6 to blow it up on 1st turn, or warlock in guardian squad passes 6 4++ svs and then kills my vindicator with singing spear.

So the general tactic is to sit back and try and disup his line whilst I form my own, take out his shooty units 1st and then combat. Thanks, and keep ideas rolling, i didn't consider most of the things you've posted.
 
#14 ·
Thanks, forgot about rapid firing, but they stil have cover and fortune.
Drop pods, you can put them right behing your opponents army, and they will often land where you want them. This is because of the internal guadance rule, which should let you get in there nicely, right behind their cover.

The Emperor Protects
 
#13 ·
EDIT: WARNING - walloftext ahead.

Here's the thing about Eldar, especially when you are the one fielding Space Marines. It's one that most players who aren't Eldar (or Dark Eldar) don't consider and based on your opponent's tactics he hasn't either (or he's found that you guys aren't taking advantage of this).

Eldar do not have an effective armor save. Space Marines unilaterally have at worst a 3+ (not counting scouts). Eldar players should be so lucky. Some of our units are as bad as 5+.

Here's another thing that you probably don't know about Eldar. With some exceptions (Meltas, Reaper Launchers, and the more expensive HS weapons, for example) Eldar weapons tend to suck. Guardians' shuricats; same stats as a Bolter... within 12". Dire Avengers' Aveshuricats; similar stats to a Heavy Bolter... within 18". Rangers' sniper; slightly better than everyone else's... on 6's. In addition to this, most Eldar have really bad aim and won't even hit you with the sub-par weapons.

You are more durable and have better weapons that him. But, he is winning. Why? Our weapons aren't terrible, and with the Farseer doing his/her buff/debuff shtick, they can be pretty lethal. Plus, you are charging his heavy weapons teams. That in itself is a little silly.



So what units exploit your advantages over him?
-Longer Range - if you are outside his range but inside yours... and he is playing static-dar... soulstone roundup time, kiddies. This includes Whirlwinds, which were mentioned earlier. Also includes anything with Lascannons.
-Maneuverability - specifically JSJ, but skimmers/fast works too. Do damage, get out of range. Assault squads and Land Speeders.
-Armor - we actually don't have a lot of weapons good against heavy and superheavy armor (predators and Land Raiders, respectively). Predators, Land Raiders, even Rhinos and Razorbacks to an extent.
-High ROF units - Devastators, Tactical squads, even Scouts can put out a big number of shots, hitting him right in the bad armor save.
-Flamers!!! - Deny Eldar cover. Cover is one of our biggest lines of defense.
-Librarians - Getting repeatedly shut down by a psychic hood is not fun.
-Terminators - they are way too durable, unless he has a large Seer Council, Howling Banshees, Harlequins, or an Avatar. Get your Terminators into close combat (via landraider, orbital insertion, running, anything really) and you have a lot of points of shooting locked down and as good as dead.

What do you have to watch out for and why? (I bolded the ones that you are more likely to find in a gunline list.) Remember that Eldar are superspecialized and with a few notable exceptions have only one purpose. The ones that go against the rule are mainstays and are italicized.
-EMLs - MLs are bad for your dudez. Goes without saying.
-Starcannons - they eat Space Marines for every meal of the day, even breakfast. Terminators don't get instagibbed, though.
-Shuricannons - a cheap and effective weapon. Normally the medium-duty mainstay of an Eldar army.
-Reaper Launchers - comes standard with Dark Reapers. Ridiculously complicated anti-MEQ gun.
-Wraithlords - durable heavy weapons platforms.
-Fire Prisms- especially in pairs. Blasty death.
-Seer Council - our go-to badasses, they are a powerful standalone assault unit, also assist the Farseer in his/her support-psyker role.
-Fire Dragons - a suicide melta unit. Land Raiders be warned!
-Brightlances - decent because of the Lance rule. Normally only available to units with low BS.
-Wave Serpents - durable, fast, pack a TL weapon.
-Vipers - fast and mobile heavy-weapon platform. All sorts of shenanigans that they can pull.
-Banshees - All powerswords. All the time. (And PMS...)
-Dire Avengers - as mentioned before their Aveshuricats are similar in stats to HBs. Not particularly wonderful range, though. One of the two best Eldar troop choices (more or less by default).
-Guardian Bike squads - Guardians, now available in slightly-more-durable-than-their-footslogging-compatriots. Get a few more heavy weapons than normal Guardian squads (and Relentless, though it almost seems wasted on a shuricannon). The other common Eldar troop choice, mainly for the bike rules in the BRB.
Last but not least:
-The Avatar of Khaine (Who I always found to be a little pretentious. Then I saw his model. Now I think that he is very pretentious but has earned the right to it.) - He's pretty much a CC badass, though his few attacks make him more of a TEQ-killer and his slow movement often keeps him out of combat.


While this is a pretty big list, none of this should be taken as orders - as an Eldar player I'm telling you all of the things that we love and all of the things that we hate (well, any units that I left out would also be in the second category). The former you should watch out for and try to minimize the fallout and the latter you should ruthlessly exploit.
 
#15 ·
As an eldar player I can tell you that nothing is more annoying than getting your psychic powers nullified by say, a psychic hood. The second most annoying thing is to get outdistanced. Park a whirlwind far enough away or behind something where he can't see it will force him to come to it. Drop podding with flamer templates is an easy way to kill rangers. Remember, you dont have to drop pod evreything, only the stuff that needs to be up in his face NOW. The key to killing eldar is to kill one side of his attack then plow through with whatever that thing is supposed to kill. evreything has a specific and most of the times unflexable thing it has to do. If all else fails and your doing an objective mission remember, he has to have troops to capture objectives.
 
#16 ·
On another note: Are vindicators worth it here, I normally take a few in my other lists and they do well, especially as a scare factor?
Fast attack wise, what is the best options. At the moment I have 5 assualt marines, flamer and powerfist;( I would make it a 10-man squad here, as it would last a little longer, but that's just me)a 5 manvanguard all with twin-linked lightning claws and sergeant with thunder hammer (315pts I'm guessing its not this one) and some attack bikes with multi-meltas. Planning on getting some landspeeders (I would think vindicators would be helpful if you find some cover and shoot your priority targets first, then go after whatever else. Also, I play with as many speeders as I can w/HB+Asscan and they tear up enemy troops really well, hold objectives decently and I have had a litte success in destroying big tank/vehicle units. Speeders would allow you to quickly get to an objective, and hold it until your other troops can arrive.)
 
#17 ·
Are vindicators worth it here, I normally take a few in my other lists and they do well, especially as a scare factor?
Probably not. They will get rid of their armor saves but they will still have cover. I once had a farseer with a three man retinue survive around 16-20 wounds in one round because of fortune and a bit of lucky rolling. Plus if it hits that guardian bright lance could cause a lot of trouble. Its range is longer than yours and the lance rule makes it so against anything but a monolith it will glance on at most a 4 and penetrate on a 5+. thats a fifty percent chance on making your vehicle unable to shoot that round or turn it into a piece of slag.

fast attack wise i would say to try and not put all your points into one unit. So otherwise, no with the vanguard. Its a little overkill to have that much power weapons against eldar, where most things either have a horrible save or a good invulnerable save. Plus deep-striking could put you in the open, a perfect, juicy target for those Dark reapers.
 
#18 · (Edited)
A guardian squad wont last a huge amount of time against a vindicator, if their leadership doesn't break first. Just sticking up for one of my favourite tanks hehe

plus their BS is low enough for them to miss a stupid amount...guide seems like a waste on guardians when there are darks reapers or rangers to be guided.

But that might just be me being niave...
 
#19 ·
The way he seems to use his seer council you probably don't have to worry about it much, but if he decides your vindicator needs to die singing spears and Elderitch Storm could easly do the job (as long as you roll more than a 2 on vehicle damage, which my eldar never seemed able to do. sigh...) Not that there a bad vehicle, its just that you probably want more vehicles so that it could get a few shots off before being dismantled. it might also just be my dice, but my guardian squad seemed to kill more vehicles than any other unit in my army, mostly because people underestimated them and only decided they were a target when they had destroyed more than their points worth of vehicles, which is real easy considering they only cost 110 points for a ten man squad and a bright lance. I was also considering that they already hit when I said they had a 50% chance of doing something to the vindicator.
 
#20 ·
it might also just be my dice, but my guardian squad seemed to kill more vehicles than any other unit in my army, mostly because people underestimated them and only decided they were a target when they had destroyed more than their points worth of vehicles, which is real easy considering they only cost 110 points for a ten man squad and a bright lance. I was also considering that they already hit when I said they had a 50% chance of doing something to the vindicator.
That made me laugh considering that a 10 man Dark Eldar Warrior Squad with 2 dark lances (the exact same as bright lances) cost 100 points.

The Emperor Protects
 
#22 ·
Okay, so now I have the units i should get (whirlwinds mainly) and general tactics I need some help with specific tactics and issues. (if you want to post more on units please do).
Right, problem number one is the reaper exarch tempest launcher with crack shot. He is in a squad of five and they are nearly always in cover and fortuned. The shot has two small templates, S4 with rerolls to wound and ignores marine armour and cover. (the exaqrch is also BS5). This is one of his main anti-MEQ guns, killing about half a tactical squad each turn (on averafe) and then the 8 othe S5 Ap3 shots arrive. I have no idea how to combat this although droppoding something might work.
If you say, go mech then we have warwalkers with missile launchers... and a few other things (bright lance, guardians). This is minor problem though as most of his AT are one vulnerable units.
Concerning the whirlwind, how do i protect it/them from infiltrators (scorpions) and/or outflankers (warwalkers).

Finally the main issue is if I sit back and wait for him he will only move forward a tiny bit and then just reaper (and other shooty units) one unit at a time. To solve this it seems to me like I should have tactical squads (and sternguard with libby and drop pods) to advance a bit less than halfway so my shorter ranged guns are close enough for me but still a turn or two away for him. Is this viable or will they just be mass targeted?

Thanks for all the help so far and I hope that you can continue to answer all my questions.
Thanks again.
 
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