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Tau-loyal marines: is this fluff-premise plausible?

5K views 29 replies 16 participants last post by  tyland13 
#1 ·
Since there are already former Imperials who defected to the Tau empire, would it be plausible that a remote Space Marine chapter could rennounce the Emperor in favour of the Greater Good?

The way I imagine it:
A chapter is founded on a remote world just on the edge of the Tau empire as a defensive line if the Tau should start a military initiative.
Communications are cut off by a warpstorm for a few years. After contact is restored to the rest of the Imperium, the inquisition gets suspicious of mutations and send Grey Knights in to purge the chapter. After some hard-fought battles that they barely survive, the chaptermaster decides that the Emperor is no longer worthy of their services, since his hounds betrayed and attacked them. But they also don't want to turn to Chaos.
So after soem existential crisis in which they basically stay neutral, some scouts on their home planet come across a crashed messenger probe from the Tau. They are intrigued by a dogma that doesn't involve any deities and decide to join the fight for the Greater Good.
Their actual strength would of course be very limited, since they can only recruit from Gue'la, and Tau command would distrust them because of their barbaric methods and overzeal, keep their alliance discreet, only using them for the nasty missions and so on.

I'm still not clear on the details of the chapter. I'm probably gonna have their founding chapter be the White Scars, because I wanna go with a kind some similar theme, but using Ancient China instead of Mongols (saffron and light orange gear, demon mask helmets, dragon motifs and ornaments on armor) and basically the same army list-up, concentrating on fast vehicles but also lots of sniper scouts thrown in to make them feel a bit more Tau-y.
 
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#4 ·
I also thought about that, but the problem is, I don't want the chapter to seem as a bigger deal than it actually is. Also, I like the mental image of an IG regiment having a brutal battle against Tau, being overjoyed at the sight of Space Marine ships in the sky, before the realisation hits them that the drop pods full of unstoppable supersoldiers are aimed at them.
Can't have that when the Tau are already spreading stories of their own marines.
 
#8 ·
I'm pretty sure that was just a regular guardsman, not a Marine.

As for the Marines being loyal to the Tau... I can potentially see an alliance of sorts, but I suspect it would be soley a temporary and a rather tense one at that. Not really a full alliance of any sort.

I think the Chapter would still try and look after their own affairs, perhaps accepting aid from the Tau (extremely begrudgingly, one would think) and maybe occasionally siding with them, provided it served their purposes as well.
 
#5 ·
Seems a bit like renegade space marines have returned.

Anyway, I'm no master but as far as I know loyalty to the Emperor is one of the genetic implants made to a space marines DNA. Therefore, I don't think they can choose to disobe him, unless their gene-seed is defunct. However, this fits with the fluff as the Grey Knights came to wipe them out, just remember to mention that the "mutations" may have influenced the Chapters loyalty to the Emperor as well as(/instead of) just getting annoyed.
 
#6 ·
Thanks. :) That's what I wanted to know.

BTW I've decided on the name Lightning Dragons. (lightning as in blitz, since the Tau employ them as shock and assault troopers when Kroot just won't do, dragons to keep with the Chinese theme, because it seems to fit well with Tau society to use oriental culture bits)
 
#7 ·
In a word, no, Space Marines would never side with the Tau...possibly a few Chaos mercenaries but nothing more.

The first reason is that Marine Chapters don't get lost or separated from the Imperium. It's extremely unusual for psychic contact to be lost for long periods of time or for large numbers of Marine to be lost in the Warp. Even if they did, they're so heavily indoctrinated that such a separation would not weaken their identity as the Emperor's servants, and Chapters on the fringes of the galaxy surely have taken precautions against communication loss.

The second reason is that the Chapter would not fight the Inquisition. The two aren't enemies. Most Chapters happily cooperate with Inquisitional oversight and missions; the (very) few who actually oppose the Inquisition are either destroyed (Celestial Lions) or barely tolerated because they're First Founding (Space Wolves, Dark Angels). Furthermore, if the Chapter in question had begun suffering heavy mutations then, if they had any loyalty left to the Imperium at all, they would cooperate with the purge. Refer to the Soul Drinkers fluff, where the only reason Sarpedon & Company weren't abandoned to the Inquisition by their brothers was that the Chapter Master was too proud not to kill Sarpedon personally. (Sarpedon, himself, was being manipulated by Tzzentch into betrayal.) Speaking of Soul Drinkers, note how they distinguished between obeying the Inquisition and serving the Emperor.

The third reason is that a Chapter created to kill off Tau is not going to be welcomed by them later, for obvious reasons. Similarly, humans in general are NOT treated well by the Tau; the bluies simply prefer sterilization and marginalization to running death camps. If some Gue'la volunteer to be meatshields for the next campaign against their own species, great.

The fourth reason is that a Marine Chapter going renegade is considered a Big Dang Problem. Every time it happens--the Heresy, Soul Drinkers, Red Corsairs--there is a quick and punitive effort to exterminate them. If the Tau accepted a renegade Marine Chapter then the Second Damocles Crusade would begin within ten years. Right now, the Tau do NOT want that kind of attention--they would refuse (or hand over) the Marines for political reasons. This is why nearly all non-loyal Marines go to Chaos; they can't hide from retaliation anywhere in reality.


I know it's temping to see Marines are being good guys who want to help and do the right thing, but the truth is that they're heavily indoctrinated weapons who don't even have a context for negotiation or peaceful coexistence. They just aren't going to accept uncontrolled mutation and nobly join with aliens against everything human.
 
#18 · (Edited)
The first reason is that Marine Chapters don't get lost or separated from the Imperium. It's extremely unusual for psychic contact to be lost for long periods of time or for large numbers of Marine to be lost in the Warp.
I'm sorry... WHAT!? Yes, there isn't much reported, but then again we don't hear much about the Guard regiments that get lost either. Space Marines don't have a "get out of warp free card" just because they're space marines. I'd imagine they're just as susceptible to it as anyone else.

Every time it happens--the Heresy, Soul Drinkers, Red Corsairs--there is a quick and punitive effort to exterminate them.
There was in those cases, but there have been more renegade chapters than that. Although it must be said that there are possibly varying degrees of punitivity (is that even a word...?).

Given how precious space marines are, I think it would be unlikely that an entire chapter would be dedicated to one single task. They are a bit of an investment... now a company or two getting stranded? Probably more likely than you think.
But Space Marine chapters are often created for single tasks, the most prominent of which is guarding the Eye of Terror. So it's possible that one chapter could be stationed around there to keep the Tau down.

Fairly certain that the Grey Knights wouldn't be called in unless something daemonic was going on or they really mucked up. A standard loyal company of Smurfs and a few Inquisitorial forces should do nicely.
Yes, this is true. They'd get an Inquisitorial investigation first. Grey Knights only come in when there are definitely things to be killed. They have been used to kill off other chapters before which have been "tainted" (Flame Falcons, I believe), but they need some evidence for it first.

And there are quite a few renegade Smurfs that aren't chaos aligned... Well, a quick google search just suggests the Soul Drinkers... maybe Alpha Legion... Dark Angels are almost renegade... but still, there's no reason why there can't be more Smurfs out there that are loathed by the Imperium but not running around with spiky bits. (Just more likely than not really minor chapters that no one really cares about, since the major ones can throw their weight around when it comes to Inquisitorial inquiries.)
Another one is the Steel Cobras, which is more or less exactly how you described it. I seem to remember they rebelled and then ran away to live in a fortress-monastery at the bottom of an acid sea. Short of entirely Astartes sieges, I can't see much shifting them.

While there may be the possibilty that the Tau do sterilise humans (though that was from a single world in Dawn of War, as far as I know, and I get the feeling that one shouldn't put too much trust into that game's fluff), it's not really mentioned all that much in the Tau Codex (a grand total of 0, I believe), whereas almost every Imperium Codex mentions Exterminatus. Which sounds more appealing to the survival of humanity, the possibility that some of the commoners are forced to engage in safer sex, or a total viral scourging to get rid of everything all the way down to bacteria?
" it is better that one hundred innocently fall before the wrath of the Emperor than one kneels before the Daemon." - Standard Imperial dogma. While it doesn't mention xenos, the same principle surely applies. Space marines will be even more likely to accept that than most Imperial forces.

And given how we're dealing with a galaxy wide empire that lasted ten millenia, surely there must be those that have gotten tired of fighting, or think that perhaps their current leaders aren't worth serving.
This can happen (see the Horus Heresy for more details), but there was more corruption involved there than simple decision, I think. "Changing their mind" would probably take a loooong while.

One possible way of doing it that has just struck me is a geneseed defect that makes the marines vulnerable to Ethereal pheromones. Unlikely I know, but possible somewhere along the line. Possibly through a fault in the catalepsean node, as that's pretty much the only organ (apart from the sus-an membrane) that affects brain activity.
 
#9 ·
Definitely not, The purpose of the space marines is to purge the galaxy of all xeno life forms. The few times the tau have wanted to diplomatically expand there territory into the imperal realm they have been met with fierce resisitance and a big NO. this usually leads to war. So there is no way a space marine chapter would ever ally themselves with the Tau.
 
#11 ·
Cooperation with the vile xenos Tau or the heretical Witches, the Eldar, does happened under dire circumstances - when the commanding officer realizes that victory without the Tau or Eldar aid is impossible. After the dust settles, though, the Space Marines (loyal and honorable beings, they) will purge the xenos from existence - the latter served their purpose, on to serving the Emperor.

But... allying with the xenos? Subservience to the type of enemy that the Emperor fought in the Great Crusade? Only the vilest of heretics would think to do so, and most of the Xenos have been shown to hate Chaos (rightly) more than any other particularly. Orks have been noted as an exception to that rule, but that is besides the point.
 
#12 ·
Since there are already former Imperials who defected to the Tau empire, would it be plausible that a remote Space Marine chapter could rennounce the Emperor in favour of the Greater Good?
Short reply: Maybe.

The way I imagine it:
A chapter is founded on a remote world just on the edge of the Tau empire as a defensive line if the Tau should start a military initiative.
Given how precious space marines are, I think it would be unlikely that an entire chapter would be dedicated to one single task. They are a bit of an investment... now a company or two getting stranded? Probably more likely than you think.

Communications are cut off by a warpstorm for a few years. After contact is restored to the rest of the Imperium, the inquisition gets suspicious of mutations and send Grey Knights in to purge the chapter. After some hard-fought battles that they barely survive, the chaptermaster decides that the Emperor is no longer worthy of their services, since his hounds betrayed and attacked them. But they also don't want to turn to Chaos.
Fairly certain that the Grey Knights wouldn't be called in unless something daemonic was going on or they really mucked up. A standard loyal company of Smurfs and a few Inquisitorial forces should do nicely.

So after soem existential crisis in which they basically stay neutral, some scouts on their home planet come across a crashed messenger probe from the Tau. They are intrigued by a dogma that doesn't involve any deities and decide to join the fight for the Greater Good.
Fluffwise, your average marine literally breathes progaganda. With hypnosuggestion and rituals, a Space Marine never "changes his mind". The universe changes for them. :b

That is to say, think of Smurfs as more like robots than actual flexible humans. They have their traditions and faith, and they truly detest changing anything. (Just ask the Ecclesiarch. They've been working for millenia trying to get these guys to accept the Emperor as a god isntead of their daddy.)

So it won't necessarily be that they're intrigued by the Tau dogma, but rather somewhere along the line, their traditions suit the Greater Good more than the Imperium. Say, a chapter (or isolated company) that fight fervently not for the Imperium, but for glory. They'd probably get lured to the Chaos side, offering more glorious battles. Likewise, your chapter should theoretically have something that they truly fight for... so, for an atheist Space Marine, it could be, say, Truth. After being fed what they perceive as lies by the Imperium (something along the lines of, say, "We'll be right back for you!", and then 200 years later an Inquisitor of the Ordos Xenos or something comes along to exterminate them "just to make sure you're not traitors", well...).

Their actual strength would of course be very limited, since they can only recruit from Gue'la, and Tau command would distrust them because of their barbaric methods and overzeal, keep their alliance discreet, only using them for the nasty missions and so on.
Sounds about fair... sure the Tau do have the barbaric Kroot, but then, the Kroot have been pretty fair mercenaries. The Space Marines are on the side of the fire happy xenos loathing Imperium, so it's understandable that they'd much rather trust a bunch of cannibals more than some mutated fanatical human.

As for the Inquisition... they're not really that buddy buddy with Space Marines. Nobody's really friends with those arrogant Space Marines, just like no noble Space Marine would really be that friendly with those inferior sneaky overbearing Inquisitors. Conflict happens between Imperium forces all the time, especially when you have an Inquisitor itching to burn something tossed in the mix.

And there are quite a few renegade Smurfs that aren't chaos aligned... Well, a quick google search just suggests the Soul Drinkers... maybe Alpha Legion... Dark Angels are almost renegade... but still, there's no reason why there can't be more Smurfs out there that are loathed by the Imperium but not running around with spiky bits. (Just more likely than not really minor chapters that no one really cares about, since the major ones can throw their weight around when it comes to Inquisitorial inquiries.)

And while the official story is that no self respecting Smurf would ally with Xenos, even the glorious Ultramarines took advice from the Eldar once upon a time. (And then there was this one captain that allied with the Tau against the Necrons, just don't have the codex handy with me...)

Overall, when it comes to having Space Marines outside of the standard "Fer the Emperaa!" norm, it's best to go small. A proud chapter that decides to work for the Tau? Probably would make some of the fanatics froth at the mouth for daring to mess up the universe. A minor chapter, devastated by a series of bad campaigns, and left on the outer fringes of the Empire, forgotten, for who knows how long, and start offering their services to the only "good" aliens in the universe out of desperation? A bit more likely, I should think.
 
#14 ·
I wouldn't say relentlessly, it depends on how big of a problem they are. I'm sure that if it's a minor chapter that they might go unnoticed for, say, a century or two. Really not a lot of time...

Suffice it to say, I don't see the Space Marine Chapter surviving in any way for more than a couple of centuries, since either the Imperium will trounce them (the Imperial Guard have a distaste for traitor Tau auxillaries. Loyalist Space Marines? They'd probably treat the traitors just a teensy bit better than the Chaos goons. But only a teensy bit.), or the Tau will indoctrinate them to their own standards, turning them into something other than Space Marines.

I suppose I should've mentioned that in the beginning of my massive post, but sort of slipped my mind. :b
 
#15 · (Edited)
The main problem I can see isn't what the Imperium would do but why a space marine would ever do such a thing and what they'd get out of it..

The Greater Good ultimately comes down to 'The Ethereals (Tau hereditary priest caste) know best about everything and should rule the entire galaxy, and you must love and adore them with all your heart and be utterly ready to kill yourself if they so much as ask', now consider that space marines live a lot longer than Tau ethereals, and generally understand the nature of galactic threats (chaos in particular) much better, and then ask yourself why such a person would ever adopt a philosophy which advocates total submission (basically slavery) to naive space dolphins.

This is discounting all the propaganda and stuff.. we know that can be broken because we get chaos marines. But here's the thing, chaos offers space marines incredible power and a shot at immortality in exchange for servitude. The Imperium offers them servitude, but the chance to help humanity (and lets not forget, they are human, or transhuman at least) survive, while they are given great freedom and respected massively for the saccrifices they make. The Tau offer servitude as disposable pawns in an empire which views humans as a dead end ready to be replaced by a more enlightened Tau Empire.

So basically, you kill your own species so that space dolphins can sterilize most of the survivors and rule the rest in an unquestioning pseudoreligious autocracy. Good job. ;)
 
#17 ·
Coming soon: Why yours truly thinks that you shouldn't bother writing smurf fluff!

The Imperium offers them servitude, but the chance to help humanity (and lets not forget, they are human, or transhuman at least) survive, while they are given great freedom and respected massively for the saccrifices they make. The Tau offer servitude as disposable pawns in an empire which views humans as a dead end ready to be replaced by a more enlightened Tau Empire.

So basically, you kill your own species so that space dolphins can sterilize most of the survivors and rule the rest in an unquestioning pseudoreligious autocracy. Good job. ;)
Ah, but you've already given reasons (besides Chaos) why Space Marines may forsake the Imperium. The chance to help humanity.

While there may be the possibilty that the Tau do sterilise humans (though that was from a single world in Dawn of War, as far as I know, and I get the feeling that one shouldn't put too much trust into that game's fluff), it's not really mentioned all that much in the Tau Codex (a grand total of 0, I believe), whereas almost every Imperium Codex mentions Exterminatus. Which sounds more appealing to the survival of humanity, the possibility that some of the commoners are forced to engage in safer sex, or a total viral scourging to get rid of everything all the way down to bacteria?

You speak of understanding for the Adeptus Astartes? We're talking about an empire that fanatically promotes ignorance as a way of life! Heavy in tradition, blind obediance and... well, total submission. The only citizens of the Imperium that have a hint of freedom are those in power, the Inquisition, and to a lesser extent, the Adeptus Astartes. A lesser extent because the freedom associated to them is essentially the freedom to do Space Marine things, i.e. train for fighting, meditate for fighting, and fighting. No shore leave, no rest and relaxation, just constant drilling and gun polishing while they wait to frag something.

For some, they'd be okay with that, cheerfully reading their codex while waiting to get sent to a new battlefield. For others, they crave a bit more fighting than that, and hence you get the Khorny types. And given how we're dealing with a galaxy wide empire that lasted ten millenia, surely there must be those that have gotten tired of fighting, or think that perhaps their current leaders aren't worth serving.

Of course, I'm not suggesting this would constantly happen, but it should be feasable in some minor instances. Whether by improperly written doctrine, isolation, or senility, there should be ways for a Space Marine to change.

It's just highly unlikely.
 
#22 ·
Actually, I can see where you're coming from. I think the Tau would not treat them unmercifully because they are always looking for more people to join the Greater Good, even enemies. It is not unknown for IG and Tau to live on the same planet, however I don't know about Space Marines working with Tau. They're a little bit too incorruptible for that.

No Horus Heresy gags in response to that comment. I know all about Chaos. ;)

~ DiW
 
#25 · (Edited)
Well, alignment in D&D depends more on intention and self-interest than anything else, so perhaps it's not a good analogy. But at the end of the day the Greater Good allows you to do just about anything with the nebulous excuse that the end justifies the means.. sure, the people getting their nervous systems burned out because the Ethereals think safety testing is for wimps might not think their position is very good, but at the end of the day there's a greater good so the Ethereals don't have to care. Sterilizing other species.. sure it sucks for them, but there's a greater good at stake here and its served by the Tau being the dominant species in the galaxy. Using mind control hats (not confirmed, but hinted) to force the Vespids into fighting on your side.. again, greater good. Who cares what happens to individuals (unless those individuals are Ethereals) because you can always justify it with the nebulous excuse that the greater good is being served, regardless of how much it might seem to suck for the people involved. It's exactly the same logic as the Imperium uses, only it's enforced by mind-controlling pheremones which don't even give people a chance to question.

'The End Justifies the Means' is ultimately a catch all excuse which allows you do anything you want. It's not a moral position so much as self-indulgent pragmatism.

Add to this a manifest destiny by which the Tau think they have the ultimate right to be the dominant species in the galaxy, and you have perfect excuse for cultural, if not literal genocide.
 
#26 ·
I'm starting to agree with Xerxes and Mantis that the alignment thing isn't totally applicable. If we were to try and apply them, though...
 
#27 ·
Xerxes said:
Space Marines don't have a "get out of warp free card" just because they're space marines. I'd imagine they're just as susceptible to it as anyone else.
You misunderstood. Marine Chapters don't get lost. A couple ships here and there, yes, but they don't vanish entirely...certainly not without major Imperial followup. Also, even lone strike cruisers are are much less susceptible to being lost than average since Space Marines usually have top-quality Navigators and ships.

Xerxes said:
There was in those cases, but there have been more renegade chapters than that. Although it must be said that there are possibly varying degrees of punitivity (is that even a word...?).
There have indeed been many renegade Chapters but not one was ever allowed to leave the Imperium peacefully. Most Marines who turn against the Imperium or embrace mutation either hide in the Warp to avoid retaliation, becoming Chaos Marines for all practical purposes, or are destroyed. Consider the Cursed Founding Chapters and Celestial Lions as additional examples.
 
#28 ·
I believe in a pinch at least some Space Marine librarians are strong/disciplined enough to attempt an emergency navigation if the Navigators mess up.. It's what Typhus was pretending to do when he deliberately got his legion stuck in the warp. It's probably not something you want to try regularly as even the best space marine librarian lacks the specialized genetic advantages of a navigator, but if you're stuck in the warp anyway.. may as well give it a shot.
 
#29 ·
It would be like "between a rock and a hard place" only more of "between a bloodletter and a Lord of Change". (Tangent: does that qualify as a threesome given that a Slaaneshi is involved? Heyo...)
 
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#30 ·
I think that Space Marines working with Orks is more probable than Space Marines working with Tau. A second founding of Space Wolves could easily get along with Orks as they are both violent and barbaric, the two would go together like PB&J. But for a Space Marine Chapter to work with Tau they would have to be the Opposite of the Space Wolves. They would have to respect doing the right thing over orders which isnt that probable. They would have to realise that they were worshipping a vegetable and then start worshipping land-dolphins. Nat that much different so it might work.
 
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