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VW Final, Esco Thomson vs. Glavas

VW 
2K views 21 replies 14 participants last post by  Rising Leviathan 
#1 · (Edited)
Map:

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/...r Maps/17_knight_on_the_town.jpg?t=1243930128



Esco Thomson (Army 1):


Grey Seer - 540 (General) SPELLS: (Plague) 6, 5, 2, 1,
. . . . Screaming Bell
. . . . 2 x Dispel Scroll
. . . . Power Stone
. . . . Skalm

Plague Priest - 339 SPELLS: (Plague) 4, 5
. . . . Plague Furnace
. . . . Shadow Magnet Trinket
. . . . Portents of Verminous Doom

Warlock Engineer - 150 SPELLS: (Ruin) 4, Warp Lighting
. . . . Doomrocket
. . . . Warp-Energy Condenser

30 x Clanrats - 202
. . Musician, Standard Bearer, Shields
. . . . Doom-Flayer Weapon Team

5 x Giant Rats - 23
. . . . 1 x Packmaster

5 x Giant Rats - 23
. . . . 1 x Packmaster

5 x Giant Rats - 23
. . . . 1 x Packmaster

5 x Giant Rats - 23
. . . . 1 x Packmaster


16 x Giant Rats - 89
. . . . 1 Master Moulder
. . . . 1 x Packmaster

16 x Giant Rats - 89
. . . . 1 Master Moulder
. . . . 1 x Packmaster

21 x Clanrat Slaves - 44
. . Musician

21 x Clanrat Slaves - 44
. . Musician

21 x Clanrat Slaves - 44
. . Musician

28 x Plague Monks - 271
. . Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer
. . . . 1 Storm Banner

7 x Plague Censer Bearers - 112

7 x Plague Censer Bearers - 112

6 x Gutter Runners - 72

Doomwheel - 150

Doomwheel - 150


It's the final countdown!...
So this is where it is at...Should be a good match, that is for sure. Dark Elf list has looked tough and strong all VW long. Best of luck to Glavas, and congratulations on making it this far.

Deployment
Glavas will most likely have to clump his forces down in the bottom right hand corner. There appears to be some room on the far left and minimal spacing between forces, but it doesn't really leave him the best of fire lanes for his whopping 4 RBT's...

I have 16 deployments and scouts, compared to the hearty 12 of the Dark Elf Force. It isn't a glaring difference, but the difference will allow me to save the Furnace, Screaming Bell, and Doomwheel deployments for more choice locations.
Gutter Runners will attempt to be scouting in one of the two forests available, whichever allows a better vantage point for War Machine hunting, or if that fails, general march blocking and harassment.

The three units of Slaves will deploy on the line, starting flush to the ruins on the right, leaving about an inch gap between the units. Directly behind the one closest to the ruins, the Furnace unit will deploy. The Bell will follow suit next to the Furnace, with one unit of Plague Censer Bearers to either side(one will be behind the Furnace as well). Two of the smaller Giant Rat packs will start on the line in the gaps of the ruins. Next to the Slaves, one large Giant Rat pack will be on the line, followed by a Doomwheel, a small Giant Rat pack, the other Doomwheel, and the last large Giant Rat pack and smaller pack.


Shooting
Glavas has an awful lot of shooting in his list, thankfully I have the first turn, the Stormbanner, and superior numbers here. 30 Repeater Crossbows, and 4 Repeater Bolt Throwers. Stormbanner really mucks up the effectiveness of the crossbows, as WITHOUT moving firing twice is already at a 6, long range, moving, or charging can up this to a 7 and above... The RBT's don't suffer from moving, and have a larger range, but even so will have their effectiveness reduced.

My shooting will be focused around the Doomwheel lightning seeking out the Dragon. If he decides to spread out the Dragon onto the left flank, I will be in a good position, if not, I will try to go up and use the forest to screen the advance, along with the rat packs. If the RBT's cluster up, the Doomrocket will take aim in order to eliminate the crew, if not, a pack or two Dark Riders/Harpies will suffice.

Combat
Cold One Knights hit hard ont he charge, but not hard enough to break through my unbreakable blocks, not even with combined charges. The issue is the lack of attacks, and weakened strength after the first round. Leaving them in prime territory to be counter attacked. Plague Censer Bearers function INSANELY well in this match up, having the punch to negate the armor, in addition to the fumes which elves hate so much. Furnace unit in general will mow over any unit in combat here.

I just don't see how he is going to be able to get through the unbreakable blocks and survive the ensuing counter attacks, if he is even able to get in to them. At most he can charge with two knight blocks, or a block and the dragon, and it won't be enough I am afraid.

Magic
Not much will be going on here while the ring is on the table, especially if he deploys as clustered as the map would appear to force. If opportunity does shine, or once the ring is gone, it will be magical dominance on my side.

Other
Hatred is such a double edged sword here, as I can race the giant rats, and slaves up near and/or into combat, and force the overrun to allow for better board position/counter charges. The Bell has a fairly common result here, which spells quite the issue for War Machines as well, so there is actually the possibility of having them toppled over before long. The Stormbanner itself is worthy of another consideration, as it can last for several turns, in which I can close the gap.

Overview
The plan will be to basically run at my opponent here, if he does not occupy the left flank at all, I will utilize a "sweeping door" style advance, if he does, I will detach the smaller flank at go forward. Shooting will be mostly neutralized for the advance, and my superior cannon fodder will soak up the important casualties. The only real punch to worry about here is the Dragon Lord, which is rough, but can be managed after the initial charge. If he makes it there.
Overall the Stormbanner is really going to hurt such a focused list. With no flying, and terrible shooting my numbers will arrive mostly intact, and able to hold his charges, and simply counter charge, and overwhelm him.

Glavas (Army 2):

Dreadlord
Black dragon
Deathpiercer
Armor of Eternal Servitude
Pendant of Kaeleth
Seadragon cloak

Master
Cold one
Crimson death
Ring of Hotek
Heavy Armour
Seadragon cloak

Sorceress SPELLS: 1
Dark steed
Dispel scroll
Dispel scroll

Core

Dark riders x 5
Repeater Xbows
Musician

Dark riders x 5
Repeater Xbows
Musician

Dark riders x 5
Repeater Xbows
Musician

Dark riders x 5
Repeater Xbows
Musician

Dark riders x 5
Repeater Xbows
Musician

Dark riders x 5
Repeater Xbows
Musician

Harpies x 5

Special

Cold one knights x 5
Musician

Cold one knights x 5
Musician

Cold one knights x 6
Musician

Rare

Reaper Bolt thrower

Reaper Bolt thrower

Reaper Bolt thrower

Reaper Bolt thrower

Tactics?

I'm gonna be straight forward and say that this is a difficult match up for me because I'm going second. I'm going to do something a bit unorthodox here.

I have a huge advantage in fire power. Especially considering his frail armour. My cold one knights will hurt him on close combat and the dragon here is nothing short of unstoppable if played correctly.

I will deploy all but 1 unit of dark riders behind those trees. In the botton right hand corner will deploy my 4 RBT's. In front of them will be the dragon.

The cold one knights will deploy with their master and next to the RBT's to keep them and the dragon inside the ring's range.1 unit of dark riders + the unit of harpies in front of them to block LoS to them.

My lord has his armour save, regeneration + a reverse ward. Any spells cast at him miscast on doubles. The dragon blocks LoS to the RBT's

The trees block LoS to my dark riders. Likely, his shooting will be focused on my dragon. This will allow my dark riders to move forward and fire at his units freely. He will have to move towards me as I've got a shooting and reliability advantage.

My first round of shooting will go into eliminating a doomwheel + possibly wounding the other. the dragon will charge forward to either finish off that doomwheel if it's moved close enough, or make his way to my opponents lord while avoiding getting bogged.

Cold ones will move forward while just maintaining the 12" to my RBT's so Esco continues to miscast on doubles. Dark riders to work on reducing skaven numbers. Unit of dark riders in front of cold ones + harpies to move out of the way and be ready for the gutter runners.

Hopefully by the end of my turn 2 my dragon will be behind his lines and his doomwheels dead. Even my dark riders can help against the skaven CC when it eventually reaches me. S4 with hatred is still decent. There is no way I should get charged first as my whole army is much faster and more maneuverable.

With enough softening from shooting and mutli charges from cold one knights and dark riders + support from the RBT's and the dragon I should be able to break through this!

Good luck Esco, may the best list win!




VOTING ENDS IN 48 HOURS, SO GET VOTING!

Good luck both of you,

Regards,
 
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#4 · (Edited)
All things considered, this seems like the perfect final matchup. Both of these armies have performed very well, and are both coupled with great tactics.

Glavas may be overestimating his shooting, with the storm banner and large amount of space between him and his opponent. For at least the first few turns, I don't think his shooting is going to do anything amazing.

On the other hand, Esco isn't giving the dragon enough credit or respect. Glavas definitely seems to understand that the doomwheels are the main threat, and is focusing his forces on destroying them as quickly as possible, and Esco hasn't given us an obvious 'plan B', if the doomwheels fail.

So who wins it? It's definitely a close one, but I have to give my vote to Esco, because there's a flaw (at least that I see) in Glavas' strategy. Specifically, he blocked line of sight to his reaper bolt throwers with the dragon, and huddled them all in a corner. In a sense, he seems to want to have his cake and eat it too. He wants to use the bolt throwers to take down the doomwheels, and he also wants to hide them. You can't do both.

By blocking line of sight to them, and stashing them in the corner, he's severely limited his firing options until the dragon is out of their way. Granted, that could be as soon as turn 2, but that might be all the time the doomwheels need to finish the dragon off. Also, if they're huddled together, it makes a lot of the scattering attacks more likely to hit them.

As I said, it's a great battle, but I have to give Skaven the edge.
 
#6 ·
So who wins it? It's definitely a close one, but I have to give my vote to Esco, because there's a flaw (at least that I see) in Glavas' strategy. Specifically, he blocked line of sight to his reaper bolt throwers with the dragon, and huddled them all in a corner. In a sense, he seems to want to have his cake and eat it too. He wants to use the bolt throwers to take down the doomwheels, and he also wants to hide them. You can't do both.
But isn't the dragon just there until the start of his own turn, when the dragon will fly off, giving the rbt's room to shoot?



 
#8 ·
Hmm....we have a plan to kill the dragon on one side and a plan to kill the doomwheels on the other...I find the doom-of-doomwheel plan more plausible. Also, clustering in the corner is going to mean that the rats will have a hard time bringing their superior numbers to bear. I forsee a ton of dead models on both sides...but I think the dragon will outlive the doomwheels, and that will make the difference for the DE.
 
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#9 ·
The way I took his tactics, it sounds like the dragon is charging forward, and still in front of the bolt throwers. If he moves the dragon out of the way, then Esco shouldn't have too much trouble shooting them down.

My point was, it at least sounded like his plan for protecting the bolt throwers was to block line of sight to them. I'm just saying that works both ways. If he moves the dragon out of the way, then fine, but then he'll have all of his more powerful shooting in one spot with no protection.

In any case, my vote stands. I feel that Esco's plans are just a bit better thought out.
 
#11 ·
Indeed, this is a nice final :)
The shootyness and mobility of Glavas is nice, but before he is able to get out of the forrest (as he is deploying behind them), he will be surrounded by rats of all kinds (as they would have moved 20" up the table). Doomwheels are deployed at the left flank which means -- out of range for both the dragon AND RBTs.
The RBTs wont last long. They might get a chance to shoot at some slaves, but without massive backup (a dragon can only do so much), it will be total overrun by a swarm of giant rats (not to forget the DoomRocket).
What really makes the difference in this matchup is the fact, that the Doomwheels are "luckily" deployed far far away from the RBTs, thus giving Esco an advantage. It will be close though.

-Tash
 
#15 ·
Best get a vote in then...
Very glad to see the two lists I lost to playing out the final, and what a final it is.
This is so difficult to vote on. The huge numbers countered by the careful deployment, mobility and hitting power. But storm banner really limits the shooting. It so close, but I think im going to edge this one to Skaven. Even if that dragon causes all sorts of havoc, it cant destroy the unbreakable units on its own. I think the rest of the DE army will eventually get, outnumbered, surrounded and warn down, and the skaven will squeak to victory.

Good vote war everyone.
Thanks very much RL for getting it going and making it happen. Top effort.
 
#17 · (Edited)
It looks like Esco's Doomwheels are very far away from the dragon and will have a hard time catching up with it. The dragon can go where it pleases, mostly unharmed, while the Doomwheels have to traverse a long path to try and catch up with it.

To Esco's advantage, he doesn't even have to use the storm banner until turn 2 if he wants. The DE shooters are all hiding behind trees, at long distance, and in a corner. Esco can absorb losses on turn 1. Then he can activate the storm banner on turn 2 (or 3 if need be), especially if the dragon pops out, grounding it.

Then again, a grounded dragon still charges 12".

And you know what they say about Cold Ones. Stupid is as stupid rolls. Once the dreadlord is beyond 12", along with his leadership, at least one of them will go stupid at the most inopportune moments.

As for the DE riders behind the trees, if they emerge to the right then they're stuck in the Skaven Squeeze. If they emerge left, there's at least one Doomwheel staring them in the face.

I think it's really tough to call this, and both players deserve applause for making such tough lists and writing up such good tactics for them.

Experience tells me that the storm banner can really hurt. Even if it lasts only one turn, it greatly dampens the shooting phase. Once those harpies and dragon have to rely on their ground movement and the shooters all find their bowstrings wet, things start to go wrong. If the storm doesn't end soon, it's a bad, bad day.

Cold Ones have an element of unreliability to them, and none of the units are very tooled up. Not having a champion can be a good idea on strike units like this, because then you can avoid disadvantageous challenges, but a standard for each unit, a BSB in the mix, and maybe a magic banner for one unit, would really push their hitting and winning power up. And they're going to need it because they're facing unbreakable units.

Glavas would have won me over if he had focused his shooting on the plague furnace or talked about how his combat units would deal with the furnace/bell/plague monks mass.

Also, I looked up the screaming bell, and it can reliably give friendly units a reroll on ld tests, handy for terror.

When you play Skaven, it's hard to get past the expendable, cheap units. You can decimate large sections of a skaven army and destroyed maybe 200-300 points. To me it seems to defeat Skaven, you have to attack where the points are, which means Doomwheels, characters, plague furnace, and screaming bell. The only unit that can take that kind of challenge is the dragon. Sure, the cold ones hit hard, if they all get there in unison, but can they win a war of attrition when the only support units are light cavalry and RBTs? I do think that Esco's tactics underestimate the disruptive power of the dragon.

Sorry for blathering on for so long, but this matchup is really intriguing. Good job, guys. I think Esco will take this.



 
#18 ·
I think that with the doomwheels being the only real threat to the dragon, and deploying so far from him, he'll be able to cause a lot of damage before they catch him, and with the DE shooting focused on them they may not last that long.
Also, although the stormbanner hurts the shooting, it's only temporary, and if the DEs focus their shooting they should be able to cause enough damage even when it's up.
Overall, i've got to say that skaven tend to have trouble against heavy shooting and very fast lists, and the DEs have both, although it will be close, since its so hard to get points out of skaven, i think Glavas can do it.
 
#20 ·
I think that no one has even mentioned the censer bearers. They will remove any threat outside of the dragon on the charge without fail.

Someone says that the wheels are too far from the dragon and will have to move, but doesn't that also mean the dragon is too far away to do anything?

Doom wheel moves about 10 or so on average and has 18" range, so I think that is going to be able to hit dragon if dragon is hitting anything.

Also banner is going to be a nightmare here. He will activate like the Davids sayts, liekly turn 2 or later and strand the dragon out and engulf with unbreakables. He will not be able to run everything through those units fast enough and even without banner doesn't have enough shooting to wipe them all outs in 2 turns.

I would vote for the Skavens.
 
#21 ·
Esco's tactics seem more sound and Glavas hasn't really explained how he will deal with the furnace and bell which is where all the points are, the storm banner will be a real pain as well once activated. I think the Doomwheels will be a big problem as well with Skaven going first and their ability to do pretty much what they like in the movement phase despite being 'random'.
 
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