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Pinkus's 8th edition ramblings...

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#1 · (Edited)
Psychology? What's that? Is that the death of Slaanesh?

Fear tests are now taken every round of combat and if you fail you have something like WS1 + 1attack. So that might be the only reason to keep slaanesh on your infantry. Terror now is taken as a panic check. Yes, I reread the rules three times, to take a terror check, you actually take a panic check. Basically every WoC unit now rerolls terror and panic. That affords us to take other marks on our troops and not really worry much. Since you can only really take 1 weapon option, tzeentch warriors/chosen coming in with a 3+/5+ is slightly broken in my book. I can also just keep slaanesh off my fast cav, so there is a few more points saved.

Fast Cav get a rule called Vanguard. This gives a free 12" move after scouts are placed but before 1st turn. Khorne Cruise missiles starting the game at mid table (can't charge 1st turn if you went first though) is amazing.

Magic. Infernal puppet was broken in 7th edition, don't lie, it was. I killed a vamp lord in a tournament on turn 1 with the tongue/puppet combo. Now its just wrong. Filthy, dirty, wrong. Every army I take will have the puppet/tongue combo. I think its cheap, specially with the combo only costs 85 total.

I think the book of secrets is sadly not worth it. Except the lore of fire is so ridiculous now, it still might be worth the risk on a lvl2 nurgle guy who finds himself without someone to buboes.

There's a magic banner that gives +1" movement to a unit. Now that I need 25% core, that will be filled in with a horde warrior unit that moves 5"s. I like that.

Fliers in general don't move as far now. That's sad, I think they move 10" and can march, but you can try to march block them.

However, with breath weapons being one use now, but usable in combat, I can see my lord with the stream of corruption on a dragon just destroying any unit he touchs for at least 1 round. Monsters as mounts give +1 armor save again. So shield, chaos armor, mounted gives him a 2+ That's pretty standard now, unless you take the FIVE point enchanted shield. Anyways, I digress, the point is, with the chaos runesword/stream of corruption, my dragon gets into combat, does 2d6 str 4 auto hits, 2d6 str 2 -3 save auto hits and then 2d6 str 3 (-1 save? can't remember) auto hits. Then between the dragon and rider I get 12 str 6 attacks. Can we say broken? With no partials if you actually shoot those attacks, you can hit so many 20x20 models its not even funny. Poor elfs. Lucky my dragon likes his elfs extra tasty crispy. If I have to, I'll just take the enchanted item to make him stubborn too.

The only thing left to decide is whether or not to take college magic now or WoC magic. They described fire mages as walking artillery and after reading the lore and the passive bonus for fire magic in general, I whole heartedly believe it.

In general, I don't know how hordes will change the game, or how random charges will, but I think WoC got a big boost. Al khorne armies might easily now be the best combat army in the game and with how magic works, you really don't have to spend any points into magic defense. Heck a lone lvl2 with a spell familiar and book of secrets will have enough magic to make for a decent magic phase. He can get fireball TWICE. You might not understand how significant that is now. Fireball let's you basically choose to cast a fireball, D6, or cast it as a 2d6 fiery blast. And anytime a unit gets hit more than the first time with a fire spell, it adds another d6 hits. Lvl 2 fire sorceress on a horse with book of secrets and anything else, I wonder how much that fireball bound spell costs (yes there's a common item that is a bound fireball) could just destroy units by himself. As it should be. How often in movies does a lone wizard turn the tides of battle, 7th edition you needed a lucky lvl4, now a good lv2 can do the same thing. Specially with dispel scrolls being 1 per army.

Now all I have to decide is if 6 chaos ogres will replace my 3 dragon ogres.
 
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#2 ·
Necrotic Phylactery got a HUGE boost too. There are so many common spells that cause stat checks and the lore of death in general got a huge boost too. Couple that with it already giving a dragon poison immunity, I can easily see this item being taken more often.
 
#3 · (Edited)
You take a basic level 1 sorcerer and give him Third Eye of Tzeentch. Suddenly he's almost on par with the opponents level 4.
This is because there's no limit on how many spells a sorcerer can cast or how many dice he can use (there is actually, but who will use more that 6 dice per spell?). Granted he only get +1 level add-on on his casting rolls, but who cares when he's a level 4 sorc for 110pts and can cast almost endless spells. He still get 2d6 power dice to his pool to play with.

Thing with this is that all of a sudden our sorcerer might get a lore that should be FORBIDDEN with WoC, like Beasts, Shadow or Life (teleporting our Exalted Champs to assassinate generals or BSBs).

If you want to splurge you put Puppet on him and get another basic sorcerer and put tongue on that one. And maybe MoT to increase casting rolls with another +1. or maybe a third level 1 and put Skull of Katam to increase casting rolls with another +1. Suddenly you have 150ish pts casters with the power of level 3s. Evil?
 
#6 ·
Oh joy I love ramblings. Alas I dont have the new rulebook yet but ive read enough of the rumors that I get the general idea. Since its percentages won't you be hard pressed to use a dragon unless its a very high point game? Also so now all breath weapons are 2d6 automatic hits at the given strength one use only? So then Throgg would be ridiculous! 2d6 str5 no armour save automatic hits! Its so cheap i might not even use it. And yea I don't really see the point of getting a level 4 in this edition, just lots of lvl 2's seem better... And I agree I was happy when I saw that 1" movement banner, and it will be harder to march block with fliers, which makes sense since there will be a definite move to core infantry.
 
#7 ·
I have to agree with the level fours. That's just too many points to dump into a single guy. One of the biggest things that seems to have changed in the most recent edition is a move away from 'Hero Hammer.' At least, that's what the rumors I've seen seem to indicate to me. (I heard a tactic from a Bret player who used four trebuchet to effectively snipe a Vamp Lord and squish him on first turn!) Would it be just as effective to take heroes in 'groups' now? Sort of like Mr.Wayne's awesome convent idea?

I'm just recently picking up WoC. So all of the horde stuff makes me giggle. I can't wait to try to do a horde of Marauders. Or, even more silly, a horder of Warriors or Chosen. That'd just be amazingly hilarious. As far as Horde of Chosen goes, it's pretty much totally overdoing it and a huge amount of points...but it'd be funny to see.
 
#8 ·
There's a magic banner that gives +1" movement to a unit. Now that I need 25% core, that will be filled in with a horde warrior unit that moves 5"s. I like that.
*Ahem* How about putting that in a unit with M6? Ogres say? Ok you'll need a BSB on Jugger or something (oh no!) but this makes them M7..... This makes them roll 3D6 and pick the two highest for their charge range.

I'm sorry but for a 15pt banner this is huge for M6 Models. Imagine that on an Ogre unit or, hell, even a minotaur unit. It's just silly.


Father Nurgle.........I hadn't even thought about Throggs Breath Weapon. Thats just unbeleiveably sick.......infact i might even paint up my Inquisitor Scale Troll. Eee Gads thats wrong!
 
#9 ·
Breath weapons can be used as normal, except there are no partials anymore. They are only 1 use only, but they will be more deadly for that 1 use.

Lvl4s won't be worthless at all. They add +4 to their casting roll and +4 to your dispel roll. That is very nice.

A chaos lord on dragon easily comes in under 25%. Throw in a BSB and then 2-3 wizards and you're set. Remember we can basically get 2D6+2 casting dice every phase, that will be huge. Average roll of a 4 and a 3 for winds of magic will get us 9 casting dice and our opponents 4 dispel dice. I'll take that.

Mv7 ogres are nice, but they're still ogres. I'd rather make my infantry faster. Mv5 chosen are no joke.

Seems that the banner of wrath is worthless now, I don't recall seeing it in the book, but I was told bound items are all one use only

Giants might be worth it now too. They were always just barely on the too expensive side, but now on top of their normal attacks they'll get D6 more attacks. That's pretty nice.
 
#10 ·
Aye, Breath weapons can also be used in combat now. For 2d6 auto hits. so Stream of Corruption is pretty nice and Throggs breath weapon attack is just hideous. This is on top of your normal attacks.

I didn't see that with bound Items. I played a game next to some staffers and quite a few people with the book and they never mentioned anything when I used my Bound Items over and over again. If you can't use them more than once then why bother putting in the rule where they can destroy themselves if they roll a Irrisistable force? If they cast they'd be worthless anyway.
 
#11 ·
That must be an old rumor stuck in my brain for some reason. Now that you mention it I remember the miscast with the bounds destroying it.

Is it you have to use power dice to cast a bound and its bound level is the minimum roll you need? I think that screws lizardmen some, their one use items were so good because of their high value. However, thunderbolt is now D6 str6 instead of the no armor save, so I'll argue that got much better.
 
#12 ·
Yeah bound Items require dice just like normal spells with the Bound power being the casting value. For us it's not much of a biggy as our bound items are relatively easy to do. Rod of Torment for example. However for things like Lizards with bound level 5 etc it's going to be pretty annoying taking 2 of your Powerdice just to use the bound item.

Banner of Wrath is pretty bum. 4 is too risky for 1 dice. 2 dice from our average pool of 7 is alot........... it's alot for just d6 str4 hits anyway.
 
#13 ·
I'm beginning to wonder if cavalry is really worth it anymore, except as cheap warmachine and small unit hunters.

I checked the book yesterday (my local game store had an advance copy), and in order to deny a unit their rank bonus by hitting their flank/rear (called 'disruption') you need to have two full ranks AFTER combat is finished. Even though you'll only be facing a single row of attacks, it still seems unlikely to happen with cavalry unless you have close to three full ranks, since you need to have 10 models after both the shooting in the previous turns leading up to the combat, and also after the close combat itself.

In order to win combat against blocks of troops, it looks like cavalry have to hit enemy units on the side while an allied block of troops simultaneously hits the enemy unit from the front. This makes cavalry more of a support unit, rather than a winning force in themselves. Winning on their own seems like a thing of the past. Even if you do manage to either inflict enough wounds to win combat, or get to combat with two full ranks, the enemy will be stubborn, since they have more ranks.

As I mentioned before, this seems to make small units of Marauder horsemen with flails, and large units of 7-9 Ogres, better choices now than Chaos Knights. Marauder horsemen are better suited for taking out warmachines and small units, and Ogres are better suited for dealing with enemy infantry.
 
#15 ·
Just throwing this question out there. We all know that an opponent with more ranks counts as stubborn. But when are these ranks counted? Is it before combat or after?

If it's after we've done out usual Chaos business of killing everyone and their fridge there shouldn't be that many ranks left. So most big blocks wont be stubborn for long. Say you've got 12 Warriors fighting 30 Orcs. the Warriors kill 10 Orcs. The Orcs hold. Next round the Orcs are taken down to 10 Models give or take. Now that is the same(ish) as our warrior so no stubborn for the Orcs. They run as they loose combat by many lots.....
 
#16 ·
After. I checked the book yesterday. Ranks are now counted after combat is finished. Not only do you have to survive the shooting phase, but you also have to survive the combat phase as well. This makes 30 the new 20, when it comes to infantry unit size.

The most attacks Chaos Knights can get, assuming two full ranks of five knights and full command, is 21 with S5 (assuming MoK). That's most likely 14 hits, and against most opponents, 11-12 wounds, and probably 10-11 kills. Their mounts get 5 attacks, resulting in 2-3 hits and 1-2 wounds, possibly resulting in 1 kill.

In the best circumstance, where the Knights still have the rank at the end of combat, they'll have a CR of 12-13, and deny their opponent their rank bonus. Their opponent will probably lose, and have to make a leadership check, but they will be stubborn, so combat will go on another round.

Admittedly, that's not bad, but that unit of Chaos Knights will cost at least around 500-550 points, perhaps more. Here's what 370 points of Ogres can do:

Assuming that a unit of 7 Ogres with great weapons hits an enemy flank, and one Ogre dies before they get to attack, they still get 18 attacks, resulting in 9 hits, and (with great weapons) 7-8 wounds, most likely ignoring their armor saves, resulting in 7-8 kills. If their enemy fails their fear check, they'll instead get 12 hits, and 10 kills. The Ogres will then get their stomp hits, which I believe automatically hit with their base strength, resulting in 2 more wounds, and most likely one more kill. Assuming the Ogres keep their rank, they'll have CR 11-12, or 13-14 if the opponent fails their fear check.

Chaos Knights: CR 12-13

Chaos Ogres: CR 11-12, or 13-14 if the fear check is failed (the Chaos Knights still get the same number of kills, regardless)

So Chaos Ogres get only 1 CR less on average, or 1 CR more if their opponent fails their fear check. Granted, Chaos Knights have other advantages, such as a better armor save, a faster movement speed, and they count as having magic weapons, but keep in mind that you'll be paying about 550 points for the Knights, and comparitavely, only about 370 for the Ogres.

12-13 Marauder Horsemen get about a 8 CR, if they have flails/MoK/FC, and everything is optimal, with is significantly less than the other options, but at only around 265ish points, you can add a character without breaking the bank, and bring up the CR.

The choice is up to you, I'm just saying that cavalry isn't what it used to be.
 
#17 ·
Very nicely explained, but you forget 1 thing. Chaos knights LOVE prolonged combat. If you throw 5 into a horde unit, right in the middle of it, you can expect your opponent not to be able to wheel around his own unit to get your flank. So now we have 3 rounds of combat before we can expect flank charges. Most rank and file infantry won't wound knights. But if we are fighting a unit of 30 whatevers. 10 attacks hit 7 times and wound 5 times, horse wound another guy, banners wash, they have 2 ranks, we kill 6 guys, we win and they are down to 24 models. Next round they're down to 18, IF they don't fail their stubborn checks. Round 3 they are down to 12 models and are no longer stubborn and we more than likely win by 5 or 6. I like that a lot.

We'll always win prolong combats if its 1 on 1.
 
#20 ·
If you want to break ranks on the cheap use warhounds. Take 15 in three ranks and throw them into the flank with your hard hitters in the front. You might loose a couple of hounds to the enemy but they lose their rank bonus.

Although I am thinking that 20/25 warhounds (despite being as long as a football pitch) could be good as the enemy wont be stubborn if you have more ranks than they do. So after your knights/ogres etc chop a rank or two off they wont be stubborn thanks to the hounds and will break due to the rez generated by your front chargers.

Theres also the added bonus that if they waste turns shooting or magic bombing the hounds its not your good stuff getting hit.
 
#21 ·
Knights get combat rez from killing, so do ogres, problem is, more ogres will die in the return attacks. Also, without the +1 movement banner, the knights will be far more reliable to get the charge off. What good do ogres do if they kill 2-3 more models if they take 4-5 more wounds in return?
 
#22 ·
I use a unit of both, and under 7th ogres are pretty crap. But in 8th they seem so much better, I get more attacks for a smaller frontage, a rank, a banner, a crush/stomp attack and can break ranks. If they get charged and dont kill them all I do get to hit them back, which means theres lots of units that don't want to charge them. There still not the best unit going as they still retain the weakness that made them unreliable before (WS3).

I can see where your coming from and it is going to happen that ogres are going to lose more wounds than knights. but I don't think that most units are going to do well one on one against other units, it will just come down to who has more numbers/ranks. Neither unit is likly to break the enemy with a single charge unless you put some serious points into it.

Some units are going to win against ogres but others might struggle a bit. They do have the advantage over knights in that theres more wounds per model, so it takes longer to reduce their offensive power. Although knights have a better armour save, each wound lost puts a big dent in the unit.

All things considered, ogres are alot better than they were before and adapt to the rules changes well. Knights are exactly the same if not worse due to the new shooting rules and stubborn ranked units (which ogres never won against anyway!).
 
#23 ·
4 to 5 wounds? Not if you attack the side of the enemy unit. If you can attack the side, then only 5-6 enemies are going to attack you, possibly with the champion, making 7 attacks at most from the majority of enemies. Even with WS 4 and S4, that's 4-5 hits, 2-3 wounds, and 1-2 failed saves. Hardly a scratch.

If you're facing the opponent's front it'll be another story of course, and I agree, the Knights will be more likely to survive, but I feel it's not enough to warrant the difference in cost. Just my opinion though.
 
#24 ·
chaos knights will be better than ogres any day. I 5 means they will strike first aways 90% of the armies out there, even when charged. they have a high weaponskill, charge further, move faster.

A chaos lord on a dragon won't be broken, as he will not kill enough models to remove the stubborn from a ranked unit. He no longer removes ranks either.

I think overall it's a good change.
 
#25 ·
I think, rather than Knights or ogres I'll take Chariots. For 370pts you can take 3 Chariots. They average out 10-11 +3 Impact hits. Plus another 12 WS5 Str5 attacks from the riders and then another 6 str 4 attacks from the horses.

Warriors need 3's to hit so thats 8. You're looking at 21-22 str5 hits on an enemy unit. 10-11 of those hits are before initiative so, sorry Sword Masters, you take the pain.

Ok they're only good on the charge but if you use chariots like units, they're horendous!
 
#26 ·
Except the swordmasters will get to chop you down with full supply of attacks back... Chariots will make great second wave models to send to combat. But I don't see how you can guarantee all 3 will get to combat on the same unit with random charge distances as your alpha strike. the unit will probably still have more ranks than your chariots (all they need is 1 in this case) and will be stubborn. Your chariots will break next turn.
 
#27 ·
b"h
I think on of the units that will become usefull are huge units of mrauders with great weapons, each one is only 5 points. if you have lines of 10 then your opponent need to kill more than 10 in order to prevent you from returning with 3 ranks (tons of ws4 str5 attacks). Mark of khorne will make it even more attacks. You might loose a lot but you will kill much more, and your going to be stuborn :)
 
#31 ·
Against elite units the chariot is great, but the hordes of chaff 5 wide with ranks are going to be almost untouchable for the chariot. I can definatly see a use against the horde formation, if players only take enough models to get the attacks with no extras (10x3), the multiple chariot charge could really put a dent in them. But I think the 40+ hordes will be just too tough for chariots.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Wolfy, don't get me wrong I know where you're coming from and yeah, you're right. They need to pick their targets. Just Like Ogres need to pick their Targets. Ogres charging into a unit of Sword Masters will not be healthy for them where as Chariots will fair better due to the impact hits. Ogres are better at picking on big units of chod like Orc Boys and Goblins. Chariots are great for picking on 20 or so strong Elite units. They've got different uses but they both need to be used carefully.


As for true line of sight, this hurts them about the same as Ogres. Now that the rule with str7 instant kills is gone Chariots are even harder to knock out. Add Mark of nurgle and that takes away most of the pain brought by small arms fire.

As for Panic, Chaos doesn't really care about Panic.
 
#33 ·
I agree that they have their areas where they will shine, no doubt.

The more I think about it, the more I want to use dragon ogres though. Base S5 means nice stomp attacks. Shaggoth just got a whole lot better too. If you can do stomp as a supporting attack, you could get 6 stomping hits + a bundle 24 of S7 WS 4 attacks! Lets of nom nom noming to do!
 
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