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Woolf Tooth Necklace and meltabombs

2K views 19 replies 8 participants last post by  eiglepulper 
#1 ·
In combat with an enemy ironclad dread. Does a space wolf character with the necklace hit with his meltabombs on a 3+ (necklace rule) or on a 6+ (grenades v walkers rule).

Grenades v walkers says hit on a 6+ reguardless of weapon skill but the wolftooth necklace rule (in the FAQ) says against an enemy with a weapon skill it always hits on a 3+ and a dread has a weapon skill.

so, which rule overrides the other?
 
#2 ·
Codex overides Rulebook generally.

Unless WTN has an exception for grenades (or vehicles) built into it's text or FAQ'd text, then congrats - I think you just found a useful loophole.

Now don't tell my buddy who plays Space Wolves ;p
 
#4 ·
I wouldn't necessarily call it a loophole, and you don't have to quote "codex > rulebook".

Ask this: Which one says "always"?

Walkers are not always hit on 6's, because other conditions can modify that. (Immobilized/Stunned)

Doesn't the wolf-tooth necklace say "always"?
 
#5 · (Edited)
There's no loophole. The Wolftooth Necklace rule states that the bearer will always strike on a 3+ regardless of comparative Weapon Skills. When using a WTN you exchange the normal cross-referencing of the WS ratings number in the To-Hit Weapon Skill chart for a 3. In other words the comparison chart is ignored by the player owning the model with the WTN, but it is still used by his opponent to determine *his* rolls in that combat.

With grenades there is never a comparison of weapon skills, hence the "regardless of weapon skill" in the grenades rules. You simply hit on a 6, which is what the BRB tells you to. There is also no reference in the BRB to say that other outside influences - like wargear - can/may affect this roll.

However, as psichotykwyrm said, the Walker can be hit on other values if it is already stunned or immobilised at the start of the Assault Phase, and that uses comparative weapon skills. In that situation the WTN would allow the grenade to be affixed on a 3+ because this is what would be "normal comparison of WS" as regards the WTN rules, as stated in the BRB.

E.
 
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#9 ·
Ok yes there are a few exceptions where this wont be the case but as the space wolves Errata states
"Page 62 – Wolftooth Necklace
Replace the last sentence with “Against models with a
WS value, a model with a wolftooth necklace always
hits in close combat on the roll of a 3+.”"
So the only instance where the wearer of a WTN doesnt hit on 3+ is when the target has no WS, but as in this case it is specifically dreadnoughts
then it will always hit on a 3+ will it not?
 
#10 ·
Not when it involves grenades because they do not use the comparing of WS, which is the whole basis behind the WTN: it "compares" as normal in combat except that the result is always going to be a 3+ for the bearer. Once the Dread is stunned or immobilised, *then* the comparison of WS comes into play and the WTN will hit as per its 3+.

E.
 
#14 ·
Sorry, E. Gotta reverse a bit based on that SW Errata.

If Bdoydie is quoting correctly, then the WTN rule is only concerned with the target having a WS. Target with WS = always 3+.

It's no longer a matter of comparative WS, but whether the target has a WS.
 
#11 ·
Just a small question about this whole thing about " grenades only hit on dreads with a 6+". I'm pretty sure that dreads are an exception and since they have a weapon skill, using a grenade you still roll to hit as normal. I thought that this really only applied to other vehicles since they don't have a weapon skill.
If the vehicle is stationary, you automatically hit.
If the vehicle moves at combat speed, you need to roll a 4+
If the vehicle moves at cruising speed or quicker, you need to roll a six.
About the necklace, the wolf lord would hit a dreadnought on a 3+ regardless of whether he had a necklace or not but i think this rule overcomes the fact that if the wolf lord used it say on a land raider that had moved cruising speed, then this rule applies as normally you'd hit on a 6 but he would hit on a 3+ on the land raider.
 
#12 ·
It actually states in the section about walkers and assaults that unless the Walker was stunned or immobilised that to attach a grenade it requires a 6. If it is stunned or immobilised then you use normal WS. Normal CC attacks such Power-fists/thunderhammers only require WS, it's only grenades that actually are affected. The wolf Tooth necklace just has a nice loop-hole to get round that rule.
 
#16 · (Edited)
The point though is that when using a WTN you are able to ignore the normal cross-referencing table if going up against something of equal or better WS which would either have you hitting on a 4 or 5. That is the whole point of the WTN. When you are using grenades, you are not comparing a weapon skill against a weapon skill. You are carrying out an action which does not involve a weapon skill UNLESS in the case of the Walker it is stunned or immobilised. You are not given this option if going up against a vehicle with no weapon skill.

Space Wolf Codex: Wolftooth Necklace: "In close combat, a model with a WTN always hits on the roll of a 3+, regardless of comparative weapon skills"
So this specifically says that the normal act of comparing weapon skills on the chart is not done or necessary for close combat against a model with a WS if the SW model is using a WTN since there is a fixed to-hit value given by the use of the WTN. However, it is clear that its 3+ roll only replaces the normal value, thus we can infer that there would normally have been a comparison to make.

BRB: P.73: "A model will only manage to score a hit with a grenade against a Walker on the roll of a 6. HOWEVER (emphasis mine), if a Walker is already stunned or immobilised at the start of the Assault Phase, the attackers roll to hit based on the normal comparison of weapon skill"
The second section of the rule, with those "However, if.." words, shows when the rule for the WTN can be employed against a Walker. It is conditional upon the state of the Walker as to whether placing a grenade on it is subject to the standard rules for grenade attacks or whether it is subject to the WTN's special rules for attack.

The SW Codex rules make it clear that a WTN's ability is used when there would normally be a comparison of weapon skills. To affix a grenade against a non-immobilised or stunned Walker is NOT done through comparison of WS, therefore the WTN's special rule cannot be used at this point.

The WTN rules also do not mention anything about its being available for use to attach grenades in combat. This is however overcome by the BRB's rules which allow it to be used but only in a specific set of circumstances.

E.
 
#17 ·
E. I hate to admit this but I think you are winning me round to your side, lol
this is a bit of a side note but what is the exact wording of the WTN rule as i dont have my codex on me atm.
Its just because the errata says it replaces the last sentence so this might remove the phrase "regardless of comparrative weapons skill" from the rule and solve some further problems with the rule.
 
#18 ·
SW FAQ Errata: Replace the last sentence with “Against models with a WS value, a model with a wolftooth necklace always
hits in close combat on the roll of a 3+.”
You win! Hadn't spotted this. ;) Though I will lay a bet that we will have a problem convincing others of this! If you're comparing WS then the roll to hit of 6 would still apply with the grenades against the Walker. Now that the words "regardless of comparative WS" have been removed it to me means that every type of hit performed by a WTN bearer will hit on the 3+ value no matter what. They will still however be restricted to a single attack.

E.
 
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