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Dwarfs Or High Elves?!

870 views 15 replies 8 participants last post by  lotr88 
#1 ·
After quite a few posts and several discussions I'm about to start my first own army; till now I've only been playing with the greenskins and skaven models of friends. After all those discussions I am most satisfied with these two lists of dwarves and high elves; which I don't want to alter anymore. I just ask you to tell me which list you think could probably perform best in a tournament (if it where under the command of a competent command).

Dwarfes
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Dwarf Lord, Gromril Armor with Rune of Stone, Talisman with Master Rune of Spite, Great Weapon (203)
Thane, Gromril Armor with Rune of Stone, Shield, Great Weapon (74)
Thane, Gromril Armor with Rune of Stone, Shield, Great Weapon (74)
Runesmith, Gromril Armor, Shield, Master Rune of Ballance, Rune of Spellbreaking (155)
15 Dwarf Warriors with Heavy Armor and Shield, full command (160)
19 Dwarf Warriors with Heavy Armor, Shield and Great Weapon, full command (234)
19 Dwarf Warriors with Heavy Armor, Shield and Great Weapon, full command (234)
10 Crossbowmen with Shield (130)
10 Crossbowmen with Shield (130)
12 Miner, Musician (150)
19 Hammerers, full command (296)
Bolt Thrower with Rune of Penetrating (70)
Stone Thrower with Rune of Burning (90)

Elves
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Prince, Swordmaster, Pure of Heart, Armor of the Gods, Guardian Phoenix (225)
Mage, Channeler, Annulian Crystal (145)
23 Spearmen, full command (283)
23 Spearmen, full command (283)
6 Silver Helms with Heavy Armor and Shield, Champion and Musician (159)
6 Silver Helms with Heavy Armor and Shield, Champion and Musician (159)
6 Dragon Princes, full command and Banner of Ellyrion (216)
5 Shadow Warriors (75)
5 Shadow Warriors (75)
5 Shadow Warriors (75)
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers (100)
2 Great Eagles (50)

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#2 ·
I play High Elves and am quite pleased with them. I would go with the High Elves. The problem with Dwarves is you HAVE to play a shooty army or you WILL lose. It's pretty sad when dwarves have to cross the board and charge 5th turn :wacko:

Your High Elf list looks pretty balanced, although you have to much march blocking and not enough shooting. Shadow Warriors are the best march blockers we have. You really only need 1 unit of them, but 2 is fine. I would drop 1 unit of SW and both eagles for 2 more RBT. I guarentee they will fair you better, unless you have somehow offended the dice gods :p

Good Luck with your choice!
 
#5 ·
r88 Posted Today, 17:23
I play High Elves and am quite pleased with them. I would go with the High Elves. The problem with Dwarves is you HAVE to play a shooty army or you WILL lose. It's pretty sad when dwarves have to cross the board and charge 5th turn
Not true, dwarf assult armies can be used and to some good success. You just need to know what you're doing, also going shooty isn't the best idea. Dwarfs don't win via shooting but via combat, we has WS4 T4 LD9 with a basic 3+Sv, this makes use hard enough to break. This is how we win.

KU
 
#7 ·
Originally posted by King Ulrik Flamebeard@Nov 12 2004, 15:54
Not true, dwarf assult armies can be used and to some good success. You just need to know what you're doing, also going shooty isn't the best idea. Dwarfs don't win via shooting but via combat, we has WS4 T4 LD9 with a basic 3+Sv, this makes use hard enough to break. This is how we win.

KU
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O man, I would LOVE to play a dwarven attack force with my High Elves. I'll take my 4-5 rounds of shooting with my 4 Repeater Bolt Throwers, with Curse of AA and Second Sign for rerolls. And dont forget my Bolt Thrower Bow that hits on a 2+ and the Reaver Bow that also hits on a 2+. Plus I'll eventually get a comet off, as well as Fury of Khaine and Flames of the Pheonix. Then when you get to within 6 inches of me, I will charge my 4 units of 10 Silver Helms into your now very small blocks of warriors. Good game, I had fun :p

96-120 str 4 AP shots at BS 4 and many rerolls plus 4-5 Bolt Thrower shots that hit on 2's and 12-15 str 5 shots that hit on 2's WILL destoy most of the army.


Not all armies are this shooty, but if you're outshot, you will have to cross the board. Fast cav will have a blast against you, ur so slow I just run around you and shoot you. I'll kill a few and then rear charge you. You have no ranks, well you probably wont have any ranks anyways :D

Just THINK of fighting an empire army. :blink:
 
#8 ·
Originally posted by lotr88@Nov 12 2004, 21:02
O man, I would LOVE to play a dwarven attack force with my High Elves. I'll take my 4-5 rounds of shooting with my 4 Repeater Bolt Throwers, with Curse of AA and Second Sign for rerolls. And dont forget my Bolt Thrower Bow that hits on a 2+ and the Reaver Bow that also hits on a 2+. Plus I'll eventually get a comet off, as well as Fury of Khaine and Flames of the Pheonix. Then when you get to within 6 inches of me, I will charge my 4 units of 10 Silver Helms into your now very small blocks of warriors. Good game, I had fun :p

96-120 str 4 AP shots at BS 4 and many rerolls plus 4-5 Bolt Thrower shots that hit on 2's and 12-15 str 5 shots that hit on 2's WILL destoy most of the army.
Not all armies are this shooty, but if you're outshot, you will have to cross the board. Fast cav will have a blast against you, ur so slow I just run around you and shoot you. I'll kill a few and then rear charge you. You have no ranks, well you probably wont have any ranks anyways :D

Just THINK of fighting an empire army. :blink:
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lotr88 has a good point, if I were you i would make the drawf army a mix of shooty and combat by dropping the crossbowmen for thunderers and adding a stone thrower and a bolt thrower or two, if you were to do that, my choice would be dwarfs
 
#9 ·
O man, I would LOVE to play a dwarven attack force with my High Elves. I'll take my 4-5 rounds of shooting with my 4 Repeater Bolt Throwers, with Curse of AA and Second Sign for rerolls. And dont forget my Bolt Thrower Bow that hits on a 2+ and the Reaver Bow that also hits on a 2+. Plus I'll eventually get a comet off, as well as Fury of Khaine and Flames of the Pheonix. Then when you get to within 6 inches of me, I will charge my 4 units of 10 Silver Helms into your now very small blocks of warriors. Good game, I had fun 

96-120 str 4 AP shots at BS 4 and many rerolls plus 4-5 Bolt Thrower shots that hit on 2's and 12-15 str 5 shots that hit on 2's WILL destoy most of the army.
Wow figured it all out eh? Of course this sort of army will come with big blocks of 25+ warriors with HA, S so that's my basic 4+ sv. T4 you'll need lots of arrows per turn to take out my warrior blocks, being as the archers are wounding on 5s and I still get a 4+sv. Ok BTs will kill a few, a good many. But those S4 multi shots I still stand a good chance of stopping, 4s to wound and a 5+sv. Just the single bolt I have to worry about.

Magic me to death eh? Of couse unless I decided to use RSs and runes it would be different, yes I won't stop all magic and some spells will get through. But I'm fairly confident that I can stop most of your magic phase, and as I have an elven army in the process I know what spells to stop and which I can let pass.

Now you'd say your 4 units of 6 helms will break my 25 warriors in a single turn... sure? Front charge, you'll maybe kill the front rank. Of course I'd have ranks, banner most likely a hero in there (3 S6 attacks, or a nice rune weapon). So I wuldn't gurantee that just because you charge you'll win, but wait you said you'll have rear charges.

Maybe so, but as I don't care much what does that matter? Of course I could just leave a gyrocopter buzzing about the rear, amazing what they can do ;) Oh and of course you're lovely RBT wouldn't stand much choice if I brought on a unit of fully ranked miners in the rear, so that's what 400vps? then I can move onto the archers... Maybe Rangers somewhere.

And dwarfs never go without WMs, so I'd be backed up by a cannon and most likely a ST. Not even you're SH would stand up to them.

But the main thing is, you can say what you like and I can say what I like but never know who's right. Yes a dwarf assault army is hard to use, but can be very daunting when you see 3-4 blocks of 25+ warriors supported by a few special infantry units and thunderers. It takes skill to use, and hopefully I will get to be able to use it well. And all know of the great ability of the (only winning) HE cav army, but as I said two skilled general would have to play to figure this out. Even then luck can have its say.

So not much point in saying "I'll win because elves are faster and we have horses" or me saying "Dwarfs have high T and AS, we'll be fine"

KU
 
#10 ·
It comes down to the fact that for 4-5 turns your blocks of 25 warriors are getting shot to pieces. You realize you cant get to me for 5 turns, right? Your gyrocopter doesnt scare me one bit when I have a Bolt Thrower that hits on 2's and rerolls with Second Sign. You cannot stop my magic for 5 turns. I will be tossing around 9-11 PD each turn with the Book of Hoeth if I want. War Machines are great comet targets, and Flames of the Pheonix will kill 4-5 warriors in the first turn at STR3.

Archers suck, I never use them. Thunderers are much better, but when they move forward at 3 INCHES per turn if they wanna shoot. And they are juicy at targets, at 14-15 points each with no AS.

Your blocks of 25 warriors will not be 25 by the 5th turn,more like 15. Then I charge a unit of 10 Silver Helms in each unit of 15 warriors, I will win. And I can get your rear with Reavers.

You dor not have a 5+ AS against RBT's except with Iron Breakers. You have a 6+ AS with warriors IF you have shield and HA, and Longbeards/Hammerers wont get an AS.

One turn of shooting at Miners will kill them. 24 shots, 16 hit, 21 with CoAA. That's 8-10 dead. If you're playing a unit of 20, well, you know I have Movement 5, I can just run around you WITH MY BOLTHROWER.

Your maneuverability is so bad I could make sure you dont get in combat AT ALL. Then I would have lots of VP from about 4-5 turns of shooting AND magic. Plus those warmachines that had a huge star right on top of the crew. You would have maybe a few VP from that stone thrower whose comet hadnt landed on its crew yet.
 
#12 ·
Yes lotr88 well done you've discovered Dwarfs are slow, and your point being? Oh wait you'll win. Maybe. Now you say you'll be throwing 11+ PD about, wow. A lot of course I can come close to matching it with DD, a few RSs and choice runes and I'm more than a match for most magic heavy armies. But then I never said I'd stop it, just stop a lot and slow it down. Also do you really expect me to even think of letting those spells get past me? I know what spells are deadly to my army and which I'm more than able to handle.

Yes my WMs would most likely be taken out by the comet, but 1. it must get off first 2. it doesn't come down at once, so I'll get at least one two turns of shooting. Now to me your BTs are nice, lovely yes wow. But you recon that in 5 turns FOUR BTs will be able to knock down 3+ units of 25 by 10 each? And even with magic that's a bit much. You'll take some of course but I doubt you'd be able to take 10+ each. The first 2-3 hits should kill (tho no gurantee), then after that it's never that powerful. Wounding on 4s, then 5s. And yes my Warrs would only get a 6+ sv, I forgot the extra -1 mod. On the other hand a single cannon or ST shot can take out a good chunk of a SH unit, thus making it less effective vs my warriors. Or I could just take out a BT or so, less S6/S4 hits per turn.

You say you don't care about the gyro, so don't. If you hit it it may crash (W3 T5) but then there's a chance it goes ploughing into you're ranks (or mine) causing big damage. But then I'd of course make sure it's covered by terrain and it be steaming those BT crew/lone mages etc. And by shooting them/it down you're making it easier on my warriors.

Now miners, yes you'll be easily able to kill them or avoid them. But think on this, you have 4 BT at the back about to be charged by a fully ranked 20 man unit. If you turn with 1-2 will it be enough? Maybe. 3 should kill them off... then wait. That's 2+ BT not "destroying" my warrior blocks, for at leat one turn. Or you decide to move about and around me well again that's a turn they're not firing.

Oh and FoP isn't guranteed 4+ per turn, may at S4 yes. But let see, wounding on 5s, with a 4+ sv? I think most would be safe, it's the next turns it hurts. but one thing, that mage can do NOTHING. Oh yes, not a thing. RIP spell means one of your "mages of death" will be doing sod all, so no big slaying spells there..

Well for those 10+ warriors you kill I'd only need to kill 3 or so SHs to make their pts back. Also you'll only ever be able to take 4 units at once, now if I'm strolling up to you with 5+ blocks do you really think ANY would be in a position that they cannot support the others?


So yes, HEs would have a distinct advantage in this game. But all I'm saying it that its NEVER DECIDED until the game is over, that's my point. You're saying
"Oh yes, I'll win becuase I have magic and RBT!!"
But I can say you forget that nothing is reliable, ever miscast? Missed? 1s come up often, had your knights with rubber lances? There are so many things that could happen that basing the win off of what may happen is quite wrong. Same goes for dwarfs, failed panic tests or misses etc could loose it for the dwarf player. Then again it could easily go one way for the other. Chats such as this prove nothing, as it's skill, luck and the players that make the game. And these you cannot say will work on here as you need to see the game to see how it works and what to do.

archonofdeath Posted Today, 17:40
Highelves, they can chose any magic they wish, and can chose the specific magic in that school.
True, but that costs pts (Seer honour) and on a normal mage that's all he gets.




KU
 
#13 ·
Alright, you've made your point, I've made mine. How about we stop arguing. In my area, a dwarf attack squad would get crushed and laughed at, in your area it might be undefeated. That's just how warhammer evolves differently in different areas.

O and Flames of the Pheonix. Unit of 25 warriors, 25 hits, 8 wounds, 4 dead. Then if I choose to keep it going and you dont dispel it, 21 hits, 10-11 wounds, about 7 dead. Thats on average.

This game is a dice game, so really anything could happen. I could miscast and kill my Book of Hoeth Archmage first turn, or I could get an irrisistable comet off, kill 7 in 2 units and have them both run off the board. :blink:

It was nice having an argument with someone that knew what he was talking about :D

Could you post the Dwraf Army you were talking about, I would like to see it.

Thanx-
Cory
 
#14 ·
Heh, til always fun to dicuss such things ^_^

But one more thing, it could get crushed anywhere. It allows for little error, if the units are out of place dwarfs lack the movement to get back into position quick enough, but then alternatively it could destroy most it faces. 4+ big blocks of dwarven infantry isn't what you want to see marching towards you, t4. ws4, 3+Sv on average. Not nice.

Hmm.. FoP could do some damage, but I always distain from doing averages and such like that. Since when did lady luck do averages? ;) But still, tis a nasty spell and any player worth their army will do as much as possible to stop it.

As for the list, no can do. I've not played for ages, so I don't keep spare lists about. But basically it would consist of big blocks of warriors, a special infantry or two, with some characters (usually thanes and RSs, DD and CR from these) and backed up by one or two WMs.

KU
 
#15 ·
Ok...40 silver helms is 840 points. Enough magic to get past dwarf defensives is like 8 lvls of magic,which is another 700 or so points. Then 4 repeater bolt throwers...um...yeah that sounds like an army you just made up to point out a weakness of the dwarves...it would get crushed against any other army. A dwarf army doesnt have to be shooty. Really a squad or two of x-bows or thunderers backed up by a stone thrower & cannon is all the shooting you would need. Then fill the rest with hammerers warriors slayers whatever. And your silver helms? well,senario playing here:

10 silver helms,im assuming 5 wide. So 6 attacks,WS4. Thats 3 hits. Meaning 2 wounds. Dwarves strike back with 4 attacks w/ great weapons. 2 hit,something like 1.85 wound,a probable 1 silver helm dies. So 1 casulaty over the dwarves...with cavalry...on the charge. Then add in +3 ranks,to your one,you outnumber. So YOUR the one losing,on the charge,with cavalry. Bolt throwers? Ok. 2 cannons will likely be able to take out a bolt thrower a turn with good guessing,and that isnt hard at all. A runesmith w/ 3 dispell scrolls giving you 5 DD? Your not getting much magic through. So there goes your grand plan of massacring the dwarves...
 
#16 ·
Originally posted by Abbadon@Nov 13 2004, 18:16
Ok...40 silver helms is 840 points. Enough magic to get past dwarf defensives is like 8 lvls of magic,which is another 700 or so points. Then 4 repeater bolt throwers...um...yeah that sounds like an army you just made up to point out a weakness of the dwarves...it would get crushed against any other army. A dwarf army doesnt have to be shooty. Really a squad or two of x-bows or thunderers backed up by a stone thrower & cannon is all the shooting you would need. Then fill the rest with hammerers warriors slayers whatever. And your silver helms? well,senario playing here:

10 silver helms,im assuming 5 wide. So 6 attacks,WS4. Thats 3 hits. Meaning 2 wounds. Dwarves strike back with 4 attacks w/ great weapons. 2 hit,something like 1.85 wound,a probable 1 silver helm dies. So 1 casulaty over the dwarves...with cavalry...on the charge. Then add in +3 ranks,to your one,you outnumber. So YOUR the one losing,on the charge,with cavalry. Bolt throwers? Ok. 2 cannons will likely be able to take out a bolt thrower a turn with good guessing,and that isnt hard at all. A runesmith w/ 3 dispell scrolls giving you 5 DD? Your not getting much magic through. So there goes your grand plan of massacring the dwarves...
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If the dwarfs have to cross the board, I'm pretty sure those warriors wont have 3 ranks. Plus I said Ellyrion Reavers would charge them in the rear, negating any ranks. And I guarentee Dragon Princes could break them, and dont forget I have the best CR banner.

Dwarves are very resilient to charges, thats why you charge with multiple units.
 
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