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Number Of Chapters

2K views 52 replies 26 participants last post by  Gerbera345 
#1 ·
I recently saw a thread on another forum discussing the likelihood of Eldar getting a marine-like traits system; the author noted that this seems unlikely, because GW won't want to give the impression that there are very many craftworlds compared to the number of imperial armies out there. That got me to thinking about the number of marine chapters, and it seems like the 1000-chapter figure doesn't really fit the universe as GW describes it.

First of all, numbers. There are roughly a million settled worlds in the Imperium, each of which is supposed to field a defense force for its own protection and also provide a detachment to the overall Imperial Guard organization. Let's say that each has a million soldiers under arms - conservative, given the militarized nature of the Imperium and the existence of entire garrison worlds (Cadia, anyone). After all, the US alone fielded more than that in WWII, but let's just assume. That's a trillion troops - a million space marines is practically unnoticeable by comparison.

In addition, not all of those soldiers are always behaving themselves - the marines often have to put down heresies and rebellions. If only one in 10,000 worlds are in rebellion at any given time, and you go with the "give me 100 space marines, or 1000 other troops" thing, a full ten thousand chapters would have to be devoted full-time just to equal the rebel troops, not including transit time between worlds, etc. Of course, the IG does a lot of this fighting itself, but the marines are also busy fighting all of the various Xeno races, countering black crusades, transiting the warp, and gallavanting around on their own business as well (Dark Angels.. ahem.) In the galaxy, there are more Orks than humans, 11 traitor legions, a host of craftworlds, the fledgling Tau empire, and some pretty hefty hive fleets - 1000 chapters isn't enough to even leave a smear mark, let alone form mankind's first and greatest line of defense.

Also, in practical terms - I bet a lot more than 1000 people have decided to make up their own chapters.. =)

Pointless speculation, but it's interesting to see how even a seemingly large number of chapters breaks down in the truly vast setting GW's come up with.
 
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#2 ·
the SM are only brought in when a rebellion is treating to go out of hand, smaller incursions are ignored for them as they have more important things to do.
But most likely, you might be right on the number of chapters, there also a lot of chapters which have been declared exterminatus but are still fighting, like the Relictors or the cursed foundings.

and actually, it's 9 traitor legions, the other are chapters.
 
#3 ·
Yeah theres a story in WD about IG taking care of "its own problem". Im pretty sure Ultramarines have more then 1000 SM since they take on hive fleets by themselves. I've never agreed with that since some chapters have upto nine companies, which means when they send a force to the battle its one company plus another for reserves and replacements... and I think the salamanders and blood angels sent more then 100 guys to Armageedon.
 
#4 ·
Originally posted by 311@Jan 11 2005, 18:55
Yeah theres a story in WD about IG taking care of "its own problem". Im pretty sure Ultramarines have more then 1000 SM since they take on hive fleets by themselves. I've never agreed with that since some chapters have upto nine companies, which means when they send a force to the battle its one company plus another for reserves and replacements... and I think the salamanders and blood angels sent more then 100 guys to Armageedon.
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remember fluff wise Space Marines are about 100 times better than they are in the Tabletop game. A single marine would probably have no trouble decimating an entire brood (squad, whatever tyranids group themselves in) of gaunts.
 
#5 ·
Originally posted by Knape97@Jan 11 2005, 13:13
remember fluff wise Space Marines are about 100 times better than they are in the Tabletop game. A single marine would probably have no trouble decimating an entire brood (squad, whatever tyranids group themselves in) of gaunts.
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True. However Tyranids don't attack with 3 squads of termagaunts either..its like as far as you can see. Not to mention lictors and that can take on a space marine tac squad (5).
 
#6 ·
True, but he's quoting GW's own fluff and simply doing the numbers. Each space marine would have to be pretty much capable of quelling a planetary rebellion on his own in order for marines to truly be the "first line of defense" with their limited numbers.

Now, if each marine was a Primarch--that's a different story. Every one of those guys DID subjugate the planet he landed on.

:D
 
#7 ·
this is an interesting topic.

I agree with you that each chapter has more than 1000 SM. because if they sent one compangie to an invading tyranid fleet. they would simply be lost. the SM would be overrun en massacred. so I think a chapter has about 5000 space marines that would be an normal guess.
 
#8 ·
Not only are they incredibly tough individually but they are also led by the most able commanders in the imperium, no tabletop army that I know of is led by a five hundred year old guy who has been playing since he was 10... :)
Add to that that they can pretty much choose their battles and go for the "throat" of the enemy, attacking headquarters, important leaders, vital facilities etc, and it starts to make a little more sense.

Still there is only one marine per imperial world, and it has been stated in the fluff that they are pretty few...

Also, if they go against a hive fleet alone they ARE annihilated! It happened to both the Scythes of the Emperor and the Lamenters. The Ultramarines suffered heavy casualties and only made it because of the support from fleets and the Macragge PDF. (I'm guessing about the PDF, but there were guardsmen there and who else would it be?)
 
#10 ·
Originally posted by dead_raider@Jan 11 2005, 13:53
this is an interesting topic.

I agree with you that each chapter has more than 1000 SM. because if they sent one compangie to an invading tyranid fleet. they would simply be lost. the SM would be overrun en massacred. so I think a chapter has about 5000 space marines that would be an normal guess.
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ill agree that there are over 1000 marines to a chapter, but not 5000. discount all the losses and constant need to rebuild one or two of the main battle companies and you figure that at best they are about 1200 marines at the most. but count the losses and they are at about 900-1000 marines strong.

but then again look at the space wolves, chapters originating from rogal dorns legion, and black templer. space wolves have twelve companies(13 if you count the lost company), templer have many crusades(lasts source i saw said they numbered around 10000 marines, but i really doubt that), dorns marines dont even adhere to the codex and easily have more than 1000 marines to a chapter.
 
#11 ·
hehe....in some of the fluff it says there are MILLIONS of imperial guardsmen, yet there are MILLIONS of planets, that means there is around 5 guardsmen holding each planet, hehe
also there is less than one marine per planet, not 1 marine per planet and also around 10 marines can take a city in fluff (i loved that topic on DOW about who would win, us or the space marines, and there where tons of people who belived we would win! and then some idiot said no one would be scared if the kroot came and attacked our world and thats its scaryier to see someone being dragged away by dark eldar than to see someone having his ribs cracked open and his internal organs eaten!)

anyone read the white dwarf article with the uber marines army list you could use, cant wait to use it (go pintle mounted storm bolter with -8- shots!
 
#12 ·
anyone read the white dwarf article with the uber marines army list you could use, cant wait to use it (go pintle mounted storm bolter with -8- shots!
"Space Marines in the Movies". Multiple wounds, Monstrous Creature level Strength and Toughness, High Initiative, WS and BS, Better saves, higher firing rates, the list goes on. Oh, and about 6-7 times the point cost.

Looks as though they would play very similar to how they act in the fluff.
 
#15 ·
cangt wait to vs my friends dark eldar (he is a terrible tactician) and i just got a razorback! go lasscannon! it goes through everything and hit whatevers behind it! it will even go strait through tanks! its so good!
 
#16 ·
If remeber correctly the fluff says that there are a million imperial worlds and about one space marine per world so by the calculation 1,000,000 divided by 1,000 marines per chapter you get strangely enough 1000 chapters...

hmm...personally i think chapters are fluffed out as way too small to make in game casulties for a balanced and fun game ridiculously damaging to a chapter. I think having chapters of 2-3000 marines would make much more sense.
 
#17 ·
but the thing is that current chapters are never at full strength and are always recruiting new initiates.so in that aspect each chapter must be made up of more than 1000 marines if the losses were not counted..
 
#18 ·
Ok..so the whole "1000 chapters" figure is a rough estimate at best and more accurately reflects the number of recorded,officialy active chapters then the number of chapters total. The Administratum (that's what they call it right) of the Imperium is an unimaginably vast organisation that manages impossibly vast amounts of data.In an organisational system that's known for "misplacing" entire sectors for centuries at a time,it's completely illogical to assume that the Imperium's officials have anything close to an accurate record of every chapter ever created.Hundreds are lost in political red tape,whole chapters dissapear or are killed off on probably a yearly basis,some chapters are founded in secret,some are so old the records have been lost,some are founded so hastily that the records are simply disregarded to save time.There's no way they can say there's only 1000 space marine chapters, but it's highly likely the Imperium only has the paperwork for about 1000.As far as the "one marine for each planet" theory gos, "millions" isn't an adequate word to describe the sheer immeasurably huge amounts of planets in the imperium. I'd say it's more in the trillions at least.
 
#19 ·
OK a few points

As various people have said, marins are basically superhuman, far better than guardsmen.

Marines are not responsible for putting down heresys and rebelion, that would be Ordos Hereticus (Witch hunters with any available military forces - inducted guard, sororitas, arbities, PDF, malitia, Imperial Navy, in fact the =][= can pretty much second anyone they want into service)

Marines are the very tip of the spear, they have few if any garison duties, they are not responsible for turning asside tyranid fleets by themselves, for every marine fighting against a hive fleet there would be thousands of normal guards men, pdf, etc etc, but marines are the gods of war, there braavery and heroism as well as their experiance, skills and authority means that when they get involved in actions, though few in number, there acts are far more decisive than those of the 1000s of others


As for there capability, play =][=, you will what a single marine can do, armed with a bolter and powered armour they can chew through IG for example with impunity, many =][= players claim using marines spoils the game as they are all but unbeatable
 
#20 ·
maybe so but a lictor took out a whole squad (and maimed the sgt) a macgreg opr whatever. So I think you have to give the same respect you give to marines as to tyranids and there enemies. I like the idea 1000 would be the official number but that its more like 2000-3000, but the chapter has 2000 either in training, in the making or on little journeys when other people call for help, meaning 1000 is a reserve base incase sh*t hits the fan.
 
#21 ·
On the note of Macragge, Ultramarines didn't fight alone: They had considerable help in the form of PDF troops, Titans from Legio Praetor and an Imperial Navy battlefleet from Bakka. They were also forewarned that hivefleet Behemoth was heading their way, so they had had the luxury of using what time they had to further strengthen their already considerable defences.

Furthermore, it has been established by Imperial studies that Behemoth, in all probability, was a mere scouting fleet to draw out and see what the Imperium was capable of. Considering that the second Tyranid hivefleet, Kraken, has all but consumed two entire chapters (Lamenters and Scythes of the Emperor + homeworld of Sotha), this is a likely conclusion.


Yeah, the problem with fluff is that it tends to apply to the enemies of the Imperium as well... The Gaunts are as feeble as they are and barely equal to a Guardsman in physical terms, but according to fluff there would be a ridiculously large amount of Gaunts fielded by the Tyranids, just as there would be a ridiculous amount of IG troopers.

In the fluff, Genestealers are something which even Terminators fear to get too close with, which is a far cry from in-game where I need to roll a couple of lucky Rending hits to open that tin-can suit of Yours...

But fluff is fluff, rules are rules and intended to make for a good, balanced game.


I'm curious about the "Movie Marine Rules", though... I figure that's a US WD article? I at least haven't seen anything even vaguely similar in the UK edition yet.
 
#22 ·
People really need to give GW a break with the numbers thing. You have to remember that this story is based on an entire Universe, where writing down the true numbers of things would be difficult to do, and even so, in actuality these numbers would be changing dramatically every day.

Game wise, your average battle isnt just an average battle story wise. A battle in story terms runs, I'd say about 200-500 pts. 1500 pts would be a huge battle, not to mention 2000 and up. Massive casualties for any army(no matter how superhuman) are to be expected when you look at how two of the Universe's most destructive forces are butting heads, and both are bringing their best to the fight.

I think Marines are every bit as powerful as the stories say, without using the "Movie Marine" rules. My marines take volleys of 37 shots(which storywise would be like five minutes of strait machine gun fire) with only one or two actually going down. People complain that Marines are cheated. In real life, they would be! No army should be able to take that much flak on their troops and shrug it off.

Yesterday, my Marshal (not even High Marshal), single handedly held off a 16 man strong pack of Kroot with a Kroot Shaper. I know Kroot aren't thought of as awesome in close combat, but story wise (and actually game wise too), they would wipe the floor with a human, and there was 16 of them! He's held off a Hive Tyrant by himself as well.

Tyranids are accurately depicted too. Gaunts don't barely match IG, they surpass them immensely, especially ive they've been evolved. Standing over the gaming table distorts your perpective, but if you get a models eye view, you'd see that even Rippers are about the size of a 4 foot tall attack dog, and Gaunts are muscular, terrifying, 6 foot tall and up beasts.

Genestealers are terrifying, considering they have four arms gilded with claws that can rend Adamantium. Terminators do fear them, since their ancient thousand year old suit of armor can succumb to these things which will strike first and almost certainly outnumber them two to one in some cases. Genestealers fear Terminators because they can actually survive that crap. Hive Tyrants are the size of buildings, with armor that can eat missiles no problem. Thats Godzilla status right there.

Next time you play Tyranids, get a models eye view of what's coming at you, put yourself next to that 8 foot tall marine, and see if you don't crap your pants.
 
#23 ·
I'm only basing this on the fuff I have from my old angels of death codex but it gives breakdown of how the chapter is composed. There is a breakdown of each squad in each of the 10 companies of marines and then an unquantified number of "scout" companies that are effectively marines in waiting. It would make sense that a chapter only has 1000 marines in its official structure but it can probably call on far more combat troops than that from with in its own chapter if need be.
 
#24 ·
I remember talking to Graham McNeil about the very subject of the size of a marine chapter and he said that a thousand was just a rough estimate most chapters numberd between 500 - 1500 Space Marines no where in the fluff does it say that a chapter must be a thousand strong. The black templars are the largest chapter with an estimate of about 7000 marines althought this has never been confirmed. This in nothing compared to the legions if you read the Horus heresay background books a legion numbred between 10,000 tp 30,000 marines with the ultramarines the largest numbering at 50,000 to 75,000 marines.

Also if you count the number of marines that are in a full strength company from the old space marine codes the ultramarines at full strength number between 1100- 1200 marines
 
#25 ·
As someone who has played marines for 15 years, I'd like to reassert a few points:

1) Even GW admits that there are only "roughly" 1000 chapters, each comprised of "roughly" 1000 marines. Some notable exceptions to this are the Space Wolvees and other chapters who shun the codex astartes.

2) As far as their game stats, marines are as tough as they should be. Especially with the new 4th ed codex, marines are more like they ought to be, i.e. shock troops. They are like the current Airborne rangers; a fast, compact force, highly mobile and acutely deadly, but without the backup of really heavy support. They are principally designed for rapid strike attacks, with close combat strength. They are not a foot- slogging army that will overwhelm you with numbers. They do have a large amount of medium-strength firepower for a minimum of troops, but lack truly earth-shakiing ballistics.
Marines' armor allows them to survive shooting to get in close where they can excel. Their basic weapon (bolter), is one of the best in the game, and under the new rapidfire rules is actually even better. They have better morale and leadership than other troops, and best of all, they CANNOT be destroyed by a sweeping attack ( read the codex- it is VERY specific about this fact). And this is just a basic marine!

3) " But what about the Land-raider?" Well, sure, that has TL LC, but in reality its a troop transport on steroids. Its main advantage is that you can assault from it, facilitating the lightning-strike attacks as mentioned above.

4) As far as fearing genestealers - you betcha. Termies have a 66% chance of dying with every hit a genestealer lays on him, not including the rending hits. That awesome armor save aint quite as good as it used to be when you have rely on the ol' invul. save ( 5+ ia a heck of a lot worse than 2+). As I said before, marines do their best work within 12" of the enemy. If that enemy is better in CC ( ork choppas, genestealers), then they are problematic for marines, since that means that a deadly enemy assault is just a turn away.


Just my 2 cents
 
#26 ·
I thinks that 1000 marines per chapter is about right. If a space marine is as good in fluff as they were when the game first started then it is right for 1000 per chpter. Back then they truly were elite,but since then the level of most other armies troopps have improved to the poin that they are not half as good as they were. I belive that in the fluff that they produce that a ten man squad of marines could deal with a company or two of IG with no problem with all the gear that they could have access to. take the space marine stats from Inqusitor and thats the sort of power that i think that they would have


Thats just my view anyway
 
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