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Vehicles, Ordinance/Barrage, and To Hit rolls

2K views 9 replies 4 participants last post by  Lord Visharron 
#1 ·
Hey All,

I know this has been asked before, but the newest thread is before the 4th ed rules came out. I've been told at tournaments that ordinance and barrage (i.e. guess weapons) do not need to roll to-hit rolls because page 29 and 31 of the BGB says just place the template, check LOS/range, check scatter, and then roll to wound... but on page 63 of the BGB, it says vehicles use their BS and fire like normal (i.e. to hit roll needed).

Is this a 3rd ed to 4th ed change that a lot of more experience players are still confused about? I got a pie plate set on me every turn automatically at this recent tournament because everyone there swears you don't have to roll "to hit" if you didn't move the vehicle... But page 63 states pretty clearly you do...

Any help here?

Thanks!
 
#2 ·
You dont need to roll to hit.. Page 63 has nothing to do with ordanance weapons. Just because the Ordanance section comes first in the rulebook doesnt mean it's applied first

Take a unit, apply the action the unit is taking (In this case shooting) then modify the action by the variable (IE it's firing an Ordanance weapon

Doing that you would come up with this chain of events

A Leman russ fires at a squad using its battlecannon, it has a BS of 3 and would have to roll to hit however due to the special rule for Ordanance it does not need to roll to hit and the template is merely placed on the target
 
#4 ·
I'm not so sure about that interpretation.

First of all, where does it say specifically that you don't need to roll a "to hit" roll? In the Template Weapon (flamer) section on page 31, it SPECIFICALLY says "instead of rolling to hit, simploy place the template..." Nowhere in the Ordinance section does it say that, even if it could be interpreted as "implying" not needing to roll to hit.

I think in the rules, ALL shooting weapons require you to roll to hit with the BS, and unless specifically contradicted (like in the instance of the flamer), you have to follow the general rule.
 
#5 ·
I could write a long complicated post, point out how everyone has posted the same interpretation so your saying an entire forum has been playing wrong, I could point out how every 4th ed tourney I and they have been playing at the rules must have refereed completely wrong by every player including the organisers, how there was no mention in the intial update summary of such a major change in the ordinance rules etc...

But if you want specific evidence, look up the quick reference sheet in the back. All shooting types that involve BS specifically have as a step "Roll to hit". Under 'Firing Ordnance or Barrage weapons', this is glaringly omitted in the instructions.

Believe us, your interpretation is quite wrong.
 
#6 ·
And it makes sense when you think about it. Example:

A Defiler fires its Battle Cannon at a squad of Firewarriors. Why does the Battle Cannon have to roll to hit? Is it going to MISS THE GROUND? :huh: No it automatically hits its target with the possibiliy that the wind currents played with the projectile mid-flight (indirect fire) or miscalculation of range/direction/etc (direct fire). So you roll the scatter die to miss the squad , not the fact that the shot has a possibilty of missing (the ground).

And for the arguement that the shot would have drifted far off course I say this, "Why train a being to shoot and give it a gun if it can't shoot straight?" :lol:
 
#7 ·
hey now Addoran,

no need to take it personally. Just being an devil's advocate.

I'll take a look at the reference sheets, but I'm just trying to get very concrete evidence so I can convince a friend of mine that I play with. Not that I wouldn't like him to always use BS to fire ordinance, since it's better for me, but I'd rather play it right.

I mean no disrepect to all the tourney players or the forum members, but sometimes people are stuck in the 3rd ed rules, and I just wanted to confirm that things have not changed in 4th ed (I started in 4th ed, so I don't know what 3rd ed rules are like, and many players I've played before have stated rules that are no longer true in 4th ed).

Thanks again for the help!

P.S. Deus, yes, it makes sense in my mind that the scatter is the "to hit" roll, since there's no way an ordinance can "miss the ground", but we often know that fluff or real life logic isn't necessarily true when it comes to game mechanics... :lol: . Either way, thanks everyone for the help! It is clarified now!
 
#8 ·
Lord Visharron said:
P.S. Deus, yes, it makes sense in my mind that the scatter is the "to hit" roll, since there's no way an ordinance can "miss the ground", but we often know that fluff or real life logic isn't necessarily true when it comes to game mechanics... :lol: . Either way, thanks everyone for the help! It is clarified now!
Glad I could be of assistance! :D
 
#9 · (Edited)
Sorry dude if you thought I was being personal, I was just in a hurry and trying to condense the long post I would have been writing otherwise. Glad that it's clarified and a satisfactory answer has been found.

Oh and by the way don't forget the door swings both ways, now you can use your own Ordinance when you fire your Defiler/Whirlwind/Looted Vehicle back at your enemy. This rule is only to your detriment when fighting the Imp Guard. I know the pain of multiple pie plates.

There are several small things I've noticed have changed in 4th ed that are sufficiently insignicant they might argue them e.g. S3 can no longer wound T7, you no longer take a pinning test for non-barrage ordnance, jetpacks can now move over troops and attack a second line, S3 units with frag nades can now damage armour 10, skimmers no longer block line of sight, you can now tank shock walkers etc. However ordnance remains unchanged.
 
#10 ·
Hey Addoran,

No problem. I know hard to tell tone online, and it can be frustrating when people misunderstand each other. ^_^

I'll see what my friend says about all this concrete evidence, though it would such more for me when I get hit by multiple pie plates, spore mines, or other lovely ordinance/barrage weapons... hahaha! :lol: I wonder why I'm trying to help him sometimes... :p

The unfortunate thing is that I don't play any armies with lots of pie plates... Necrons only have Particle Whip, which I don't use that often. And Chaos only has Defiler (unless you're IW, which I like but won't use because of people complaining about "cheese"), which doesn't fit my fluff too well... oh well, I'll just have to be at the receiving end of pie plates again. :eek:
 
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