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Eldar troop discussion thread

2K views 42 replies 12 participants last post by  Viktor 
#1 ·
Ok, I am sick and tired of my troops never doing ANYTHING for me at all. It just seems that every single point I spend on troops is wasted, and I am so close to go go down the 2x5 guardian road and spend as many points as possible on something else. But I am not that unreasonable.. I want to keep my army fluffier than that, but on the other hand I also want to win battles. Let me tell you about my trouble troop for troop:

Guardian Defenders: T3 and 5+ save = these guys drop like flies, and it hurts my fluff-loving heart to field troops like that. Every eldar life is prescious. Game wise, these guys dont really cut it either. Due to the short range of the suricat, they usually have to spend the first 3-4 turns marching across the table, taking fire all the way, and when they finally arrive and fire their guns once, before they are rapid fired to death. I have never in my life seen a guardian squad, even with conceal, take a round of rapid fireing and still remain battleworthy. And those severly overpriced weapon platforms are not really worth their points eother, unless you are very lucky.

Storm Guardians: The same points apply here. They simply never live long enough to do a god damn thing, which is especially bad for cc troops. Unless something infiltrates or deep strikes right in front of them, they will simply be too few to make a diffrence in cc, and the sheer number of guardians needed in a squad like this makes it impossible to hide it behind anything, and they will be gunned down.

Black Guardians: The same. + 1 WS or BS does not make the squad survive longer, although the weapon platforms are close to be worth their points in these squads.

Dire Avengers: I like the idea of super guardians, but their short range and few numbers make these guys even more useless than guardians. Plus, they are very expensive for what they do.

Rangers: Only really good in Alaitoc, where disruption takes care of the enemy bulk. Non-alaitoc armies based on rangers always semms to become outnumbered and slaughered.

Please tell me that I miss the big picture here, and show me trhe light, or is it really true that the eldar havent got a single fieldworthy troop choice?
 
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#2 · (Edited)
You've got it wrong, at least on the defender front.

If you want guardians to live, you have to invest in them. Your basic guardian is going to get chewed up by bolters, and pretty much every basic weapon (including the lasgun).

Step #1: Conceal. Invaluable power. This keeps heavy bolters and even artillery "honest" with your troops - they aren't guaranteed anything even when you are in the open. It's expensive, but now you have a third fewer casualties.

Step #1: Fortune. Yes, that's right - get the farseers in on the act. Although I use Ulthwé, having fortune on concealed guardians can completely wreck a firepower-based army.

These two combined turn a weak, lightly armoured unit into a tough objective holding unit that isn't the "bullet catcher" that they are portrayed as. Only last night my guardians took 13 hits from a basilisk, resulting in 9 wounds.

It killed two guardians.

That brings me on to storm guardians. These boys suffer on a number of fronts - they don't have the armour, WS or S to make a good assault unit. Attack space marines and you will lose. Put them on foot and they will die. Even enhance is "dead money".

I think if people really want to use them, use them to hunt tanks on the cheap. Small units in a wave serpent/falcon with fusion guns and a singing spear provide punch for very little outlay. It's also a nuisance unit that doesn't give your opponent much if they die.

I don't like storm guardians, but they have a place if you need them.

Rangers also have their uses - infiltrators are useful for taking ground before the game starts, and sniper rifles should never be sniffed at, especially in the face of wraithlords, talos or even C'Tan. The odd AP1 shot can be useful for forcing a pinning test your opponent might not otherwise have to take. I usually take two medium sized squads.
 
#3 ·
yeah, i never saw the benefit of guardians (and my friend already played ulthwe so i wasn't about to copy)
i can't really afford to spare the points to conceal a guardian squad then fortune it, my HQ slots usually only have the one unit, which is my jetbike farseer. and a BS 3 starcannon or brightlance doesn't really appeal when i could just use a vyper to acheive the same end.

i kinda sidestep the whole issue of having to use guadians by paying biel-tan, aspects as troops are great but they can get pretty expensive. the problem is i find them earning their points back less and less. dark reapers are pretty weak and are usually the very first target, i have no idea how to use fire dragons effectively without devoting half my army as "support".
even banshees; they look good on paper but how are you supposed to get them into cc? waveserpents just don't work anymore.

two of my troop slots that consistently bring their points back are infiltrating scorpions and warp spiders.
if you're ever going to go with biel-tan may i suggest a squad of each for troops and ignoring the other aspects (more in big games though)

although i never use guardians i still can't bring myself to ever try them and push the eldar that little bit closer to extinction...
 
#4 ·
I'll write more tomorrow when i have the time, but for now i will comment on the Storm Guardian thing. The trick when using them is to charge the enemy with a close combat specialist squad, like Banshees, and use the Storm Guardians to outnumber the enemy (and maybe kill something) so they'll lose their morale check and get slaughtered. I think that conceal is the best warlock power for Storm Guardians too, except when playing Ulthwé Strike Force.
 
#6 ·
I am aware that fortue can make guardians live longer, and that I can use serpents or falcons to transport them, the only trouble about that is that guardians are simply not worth it. Conceal + forutne is very expensive, and transports even more so, and on top op that, transports limit the maximum size of the guardian squads to a size, where badly equipped warriors like guardians cant do much. Its not that I cant make guardians survive, its just that I simply cant find any efficient use for my troops, and utterly waste the about 400 points that I usually spend on them. But it appears that Im not the only one having trouble with my troops at least. The only reason why I dont go beil-tan is, that I dont want to spend more money on my eldar before the new dex is out.. whenever that is going to be.
 
#7 ·
yeah my last 2 games have been 1000pt battles with my IG vs guardian heavy eldar, and by turn 4 they were wiped out both times. it was pretty one sided on both occasions :(

my only recommendation is load up in wave serpents with storm guardians and roll out. popping out and unloading with 2 flamer templates can be a nasty suprise and now you're within assault range as well, so hey, it may have cost you 135pts to get the squad there, but its there and you have a twin linked starcannon to mess with the enemy with while your guardians are in combat.

I know it's expensive but you're needing to invest some points to make guardians worthwhile. as you stated them, they indeed do suck :(
 
#8 ·
98pt starcannons are what Guardians are for.. I use 3 squads in my Biel Tan army due to the transport changes. You *need* numbers to stay competative and sadly Guardians can be quite useful

I never ever use them fo ranything other than starcannon platforms and as a cheap scoring unit that might be ignored.. The other troop choices are generally useless
 
#9 ·
Farseer Sareld said:
Conceal + forutne is very expensive
But worth it. It's a good points denial tactic, and great at reducing the number of morale checks you might have to take.

I win a lot of games using that combo, and at tournaments it usually scores highly (my 1k version has got two massacres and a minor victory two years in a row, resulting in a 2nd and 5th place, my 1.5k is also just as effective).

I've been using guardians with conceal/fortune for about 3 years now, and the combo is well-worth trying. You can either stand off with the squad heavy weapon against marine armies, or go in close firing the heavy weapon until you get into catapult range. If you are flexible with your tactics guardians are a great unit.
 
#10 ·
Now let's talk a little about Rangers.

I find them useful from time to time because of the stealth rule and Ranger long rifles, a lot more effective than normal Sniper rifles. But most of the time i just use them because i want more different troop choices than just Guardians. They're good at staying alive at least, with a 3+ cover save in ruins... and they can in theory take down big creatures as well as pin small units. And they're extra useful in Cleanse missions for starting in an adjacent table quarter in the beginning of the game.

On to Dire Avengers:

This squad has never really served me well, they're like black guardians without a warlock when shooting and like howling banshees when shot at. They are like Fire Dragons in close combat... they have their fans and some people find uses for them, but i'm not one of them. I might repaint mine and use them when the new codex comes out though, i have high hopes for them.

Guardian Defenders:

They generally have 3 kinds of configurations:
1. Big 20-man squad with concealing warlock, great for adding a bulk to the army and maybe kill something.
2. Small squad with a heavy weapon, usually Star Cannons for non-ulthwé armies.
3. 10-man squad with concealing warlock, a unit mostly used in Ulthwé strike force for killing light infantry when emerging from the webway. Here they excel against the right opponent.

So yes, i do find Guardians useful and really cool.

Storm Guardians:

As i stated earlier, they are good for adding numbers to an assault. When using them as Black guardians and giving them Enhance, they are very capable assault units. Don't forget that they can fleer of foot! Most useful in Ulthwé strike force of course, since they don't have to march across the table and die.
Another use is buying 5 of them and giving two of them flamers, putting them in a Falcon and unloading death on a squad. If you kill stuff worth 46 pts or more you've eared back their points already! It gives you a little road bump too.

Summary: I like all the Eldar troop choices except Dire Avengers. I still bear the shame of when my Exarch got beaten by a Catachan sniper in close combat.
 
#11 ·
I was thinking about it last night as I was going to sleep and I had to turn my light back on and look up the options for guardian defenders just to make sure that the weapons platforms really were THAT expensive and that they had NO other options they could take; needless to say they were, and they dont. how retarded, I would never pay 50(!)pts for a starcannon that keeps me from fleet of footing to get within rifle range. rifles kill just as much as a starcannon (ok well maybe not quite as much, but rifles kill - that's the point). the point of guardians is to shoot and do damage, not sit and be slaughtered in protection of the heavy weapon crew. yes, it's nice to move and shoot the starcannon on the platform but you're losing out big time not being able to fleet of foot and get the bulk of your troops in the game. coming from an IG commander that specialized in an all infantry guard army, I can tell you that you don't win a game by taking heavy weapon potshots. advance till you're within rifle range, then sit and shoot or charge and pile in with other nearby units. that's how that works unless you just have ungodly amounts of heavy weapons and a vehicularly based target rich environment (in which case you should sit and shoot and kill those vehicles down then set to advancing into rifle range). the point is that with 50pt heavy weapon options, you'll never have enough weapons to justify sitting and shooting against enemy infantry formations and even moving your 6" and shooting but not fleet of footing is not gonna benefit you as much as a fleet of foot would. the shuriken catapult's 12" range is supposed to be offset by our ability to fleet of foot, but if we take an overpriced weapon platform and lose out on our fleet of foot then we're effectively paying to keep our rifles on the shelves - that's just wrong. plus you'll never afford enough heavy weapons to just shoot heavy weapon platforms and have that be sufficient to take down your opposition when they cost 50pts each.

ok I think that was enough of a rant for me.
 
#12 ·
artificer knoll said:
I would never pay 50(!)pts for a starcannon that keeps me from fleet of footing to get within rifle range.
I would.

For a few reasons:

Softening up the enemy. Sure, there are other units in the army that can be killing the enemy. But what are the guardians killing as they get closer? Nothing. At least with a heavy weapon they can soften up units or act as support on the way in.

Taking objectives. Guardians are great for holding objectives. Heavy weapons keep them flexible while the catapults act as a deterrent.

Cowardice. I'm not getting close to khorne bezerkers or a 'nid army.

Ulthwé. "You can have any colour you like, as long as it's black."
 
#13 ·
my experience fighting vs guardian heavy armies that had heavy weapon platforms in the squads has resulted in 100% of the time the eldar player is annihilated by turn 4 or 5. guardians without fleet of foot become great targets and I'm more than happy to soak up some scatter laser or starcannon or whatever fire as they sacrifice their fleet of foot. maybe conceal with fortune would turn this tide - I've never faced that combo before, but I love seeing an eldar army with lots of guardians with weapon platforms, because I've never seen one not get utterly annihilated.

like I said, maybe you have some tricks to make them work and if so, please do mention em, I'd love to tip off the local guardian heavy nilla eldar players around here how to not be wiped out by turn 4ish :p
 
#14 ·
Well what doesn't make sense to me is the heavy weapons platform is like a mini hover tank (well the model looks that way) why could that thing not move with the troops while they fleet of foot?

I mean the crew and everyone else in the squad can't fire thier weapons if they FoF so it's not like it's a question of the operators firing the platform.

It just doesn't make sense with skimmers flying at such speedsand Eldar technology couldn't Eldar platforms fly/hover as fast as the Eldar can run?

That's my thoughts on it with FoF, now the points is another problem yes... A starcannon is 50pt when for 15pts more you can have it on a Vyper with twin cats, it can move fast and fire the starcannon.

They just need to improve catapults to even the points out...even if they were just lasblasters I think it would help a lot. I know this has all ready been talked about.
 
#15 ·
sorry if my posting was a bit flamey back there, it's not my intention at all so if you feel a bit flamed then please dont. I was just trying to say I've never seen a successful eldar guardian based army when platforms were in use - it could be for other reasons, but yeah.

you can fleet of foot with a weapon platform in the squad, you just skip the platform weapon firing and fleet instead :)
 
#16 ·
Except that it says you cannot fleet if you have an anti-grav platform

Starcannons are the best anti-marine weapon the eldar got.. Why not use it. The rest of your guardians are worthless fodder anyway. In reality they're worse than guardsman, and people dont buy guardsman for the lasguns

You pay 85 pts at the cheapest for a lascannon with guard, 98 for a starcannon isn't a bad deal.. There are ways to keep them alive, such as only keeping 2 in LoS just to fire the gun

Sure if you use all guardians you'll lose.. But its under 300 pts for 3 starcannons and 3 scoring units that are low priority.. Get 2 falcons and a wraithlord plus some aspect warriors with a farseer and you got much more dangerous targets. Those 3 starcannons will kill a lot of marines during the game and can move and fire
 
#18 ·
Dire Avengers...

All of the Eldar troops choices are good at one thing and bad at anything else. They follow along the same lines as the aspect warriors...Defender Guardians shouldn't be assaulting, the same as Howling Banshees can't do much with their pistols. This is an obvious point to make.

People have covered the other troop choices fairly well, and if you choose a variety from the troop list your force will be the better for it (rangers do supression, defenders do fire support, stormies support in combat, etc.).

Dire Avengers fit into a nice little niche in the Eldar troop section...they are reasonably good at both close-range shooting and assaults, and...oh! They carry *assault* weapons! Maybe they're supposed to do both! That said, they become an excellent choice for supporting just about any other unit...they can keep deep-strikers or assault units off guardians, they can compliment the close-range firepower of fire dragons or warp spiders, and they have decent staying power in assault with high I, WS, and a 4+ save (you worry much less about AP in assault, no!?). They are a nice option to "round out" your list.

Its been said before...but I'll say it again. The Eldar DO NOT WIN unless they employ a combination of units to succeed. Each unit provides a strength that covers the other's weaknesses. Now, you may be surprised by this...but this ideom of war strategy doesn't end here, on paper (or the digital equivalent) but actually must be (gasp!) EMPLOYED on the battlefield. For once, people, TRY and combine the power of your units in-game...instead of shooting that tac squad with your guardians, shoot it with the guardians, again with Avengers, and then assault it with Avengers AND Howling Banshees. You have the mobilty to do this...SO DO IT. You want to hit any single enemy unit with three or four of your units in a turn. In this way you will finish off entire units at a time, and this is more than effective since you reverse roles on your opponent. It is now HE that has his precious squads (and the abilities that they confer to his force) eliminated, and thusly cannot deal with your army as well because of it. I term this strategy "defanging" the opponent's force. You want to kill the really hurty stuff as fast as possible. The first time you wipe out your Space Marine opponent's big, nasty Assault Squad w/ Chappy attatched in one swift blow, you'll know what I mean!
 
#19 ·
yes, I mean following the general strategies of eldar (fight on your terms, not theirs) are nice, but really, even when combined with other units Dire Avengers never seem to make their points back. Guardians are just far more worthwhile. More numbers and they can take warlocks, and weapon platforms. Dire Avengers will do very little in shooting, and will only surve as more bodies in an assault, something guardians can do far more effectively (you don't have to take the weapons platforms, and they're quite nice in the numbers and mobility department if you just take a squad of 20 with a warlock).

BTW, think we've all killed the enemy's HQ + Retinue more than a few times... I mean, your post was fairly condescending...
 
#20 ·
LoS is your friend with Eldar - the great thing about weapons platforms is that you can stay out of sight on turn 1 if you need to - unlike most races, your heavy weapons are always "working". Fortune and conceal means you've got a "3.5+" save (i.e. you save 5/9 wounds - one less than power armour).

I usually set my Eldar up roughly like this:



The main units (there are also vypers and rangers as light support) are mutually supporting, especially with the council and guardians, who stick together like glue (To an extent you can replicate the effect with vanilla eldar, but you won't be getting as many fortunes). Charge down the centre and meet at least three starcannons, or go up a flank and hit a wraithlord (even most "hidden" power fists will take more than one round to deal with a Wraithlord, giving the rest a chance to "escape").

Thanks to fortune, shooting this army is not easy (and what isn't fortuned is either T8 or completely expendable) while charging it results in the following:



The Fearless guardians don't run away, thus "snagging" the enemy. That leaves the seer council to counter-charge with the avatar (and a wraithlord if necessary), which usually eliminates the charging unit.

When advancing the centre units advance "as one" with the 'lords keeping pace if it's safe for them to do so (Oh, the irony). Your strategy has to keep the guardians at its centre.

In extreme firepower conditions (usually against IG), even fortune can't always help your guardians - but in that case, the farseer(s) and friends should put on their running shoes and show the enemy how it's done :D.
 
#21 ·
That's similar to the way i use my Black Guardians too, but i prefer not to have a static line. They and the Seer Council is more like a mobile centre of the army moving around and shooting stuff. And then when things get to close the Seer Council rush forth and locks it in combat to protect the Guardians. Or something like that. The other difference is that i don't use Wraithlords to support my Guardians. They act cowards instead. ;)
I also make sure to use the council to guide Falcons and War Walkers etc. since they need the re-roll most.
 
#22 ·
Viktor said:
That's similar to the way i use my Black Guardians too, but i prefer not to have a static line. They and the Seer Council is more like a mobile centre of the army moving around and shooting stuff.
Mine doesn't tend to stay in one place, either - the only times when it hangs back is when it is likely to to be creamed by something fast and hitty...
 
#24 ·
Colonel_Ellios said:
Sorry about the condescending post...its just that I see so many newbs throwing one, single unit of banshees against a SMurf squad and doing nothing...and then COMPLAINING about it! I just get tired of all the stupidity...

Am I the only one that sees the irony in calling anyone a newb when they themselves only have a post count of 7? ^_^
 
#25 · (Edited)
Yes...because we all know that the number of posts one has accumulated on online forums is indicative of gaming experience...

I only visit forums on occasion...sadly most of the content on most 40k forums is as inane as your own post. You claim superiority by taking the space and time to generate pointless replies like the one above, and then bash others when they *gasp* actually use the space to write something indicating an IQ above 60? There should be a rating system for posters: a rating of 1 means that this person is a waste of life, and a rating of 10 means that this person actually contributes something of meaning to the discussion. The poster above deserves a rating of 1!
 
#26 ·
Colonel_Ellios said:
There should be a rating system for posters:
There is. You can approve or disaprove of the post. That will either benefit or hurt his reputation.
 
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