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Dealing with Seer Councils...

941 views 19 replies 11 participants last post by  Diggums Hammer 
#1 · (Edited)
I regularly play with a friend who fields Eldar, and just recently he has started fielding an 18-man seer council. He casts fortune on them every turn, giving a 4+ invulnerable save with a re-roll, and the squad has a 13-man redundancy before you start picking off the farseers.

To make matters worse, he also takes 2x Eldritch storm and puts independant warlocks in his guardian squads with singing spears.

The only way I can see to take it down is to pour obscene amounts of firepower into it every turn, in the hope of killing 1 or 2 men. I have only ever got a slim victory against it. But in recent games I just ignore it, kill the rest of his army and then try and stall the seer council until turn 6 by throwing speed-bumps at it.

By the way. He also has 2x squads of Black Guardian Defenders. 2x squads of Storm Guardians with fusion guns, 3 Vyper jetbikes with shuriken cannons, 2 squads of Dark Reapers and an Avatar.

So the rest of his army can't be ignored to focus on the seer council.


Has anybody ever fought a huge seer council before? Or have any ideas about how to take one down. It seems insane that he can march a 28-wound squad at me rolling 4+ saves with a re-roll.

All I can do against it is make a army list that gets as many long range shots as is legally possible. But I don't like custom-building an army list to fight a specific army.

Any advice would be welcome!



Edit: I had a play with a calculator and the odds say it would take 112 wounds to kill it. Obviously that dosen't take into account failed wound rolls, and at BS3 you are going to need double that figure, and it's probibly going to have to be inflicted in 3-4 turns or it's too late.
 
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#2 ·
I'd just shoot the crap out of the rest of his army first, that seer council sounds like a horrible points sink. As for eldritch storm, space your men out and the casulties aren't that bad. Personally I'd be more pissed of about mind war and its ability to "snipe" heavy weapons teams.

Don't forget Singing Spears, although S9 are AP nothing so they can only ever score glancing hits.

If you really want to mince it, I heard than nemisis force weapons ignore invulnerables, not really sure though. If it's true a squad of grey knights will really scare those pansy space elves.
 
#3 · (Edited)
The problem is, his eldritch storms are spinning my tanks around to show AV12/10. Then his singing spears and Vipers pick them off with ease.

Up until now I have been ignoring the seer council, but the problem is, it is very difficult to make it to turn 6 without the seer council hacking through half my army in CC. I have also tried to use deepstrikers to slow him down for a turn.

Thanks for the advice on the singing spears, he told me they were AP1. I could do with buying myself a copy of wargear.

Mind war is an inconvenience, but he only has 1 of them, (and he seems to fear my Plasmagunners more than my heavy weapons).

As for the points sink, I beleive it is 447!




Edit: I just looked up Daemonhunters... WOW. Thanks for the heads up! Usualy I'm not keen on fielding allies, but in this particular case I'm not going to lose any sleep over it!
 
#4 ·
oh mighty lord 18 members in a seer council what a crazy man... well my my tactic against seer councils often is ignore them but since his army IS a seer council you're in for some trouble :p. anyway the first priority should be the wipers, when they are gone just concentrate everything you have against them.

I have 2 friends which play eldar and one of them has a habit of saving ridiculously many saves. BUT remember the game is about luck and sometimes you'll need much less to take down 4-5 warlocks in that seer council. Just remember never let him breath, he must take as many saves as possible 'cause sometime he has to fail sometime.
 
#5 ·
Xethemez said:
As for the points sink, I beleive it is 447!
Crap, that's it? Actually this might be the first cost effective seer council I've seen. 447 points and 13 near invulnerable suckers? I was expecting something along the lines of 600 pts for that many warlocks.

As for your tanks, just don't field them. What real bonus AP3 against eldar anyway? just buy more men.
 
#6 · (Edited)
More men, more heavy bolters. Speaking as an ulthwé player, conscripts are a pain (hide a commissar in there ;) ), and massed ranks of multi-shot weapons and mortars really can deliver the goods.

The key issue with the Ulthwé army is that the units that pack the anti-tank firepower - frequently guardians and vypers are vulnerable to pinning (not vypers, of course) and multi-shot weapons. Bring some autocannons to the party, and try to keep some distance between your units (not easy with a horde of guardsmen, I realise).

Hellhounds (hide it away!), deep striking sentinels with heavy flamers and anything else with a template weapon tend to be horrors to the "classic" ulthwé army. The guardians won't get conceal, you don't have to roll to hit and those guns are very effective against vypers (remember that you score two hits on open-topped vehicles with template weapons).

That is what I would suggest without resorting to allies. Personally, I don't rate "buying in" them in - they are very expensive, and only their ranged weapons (but they are very good ranged weapons) ignore inv. saves. Problem is that they become a target for every starcannon on the table - You're better off with three times as many shots from a load of heavy weapons. Grey knights play even further into the hands of the Eldar player.

Crap, that's it? Actually this might be the first cost effective seer council I've seen. 447 points and 13 near invulnerable suckers? I was expecting something along the lines of 600 pts for that many warlocks.
One of the worst aspects of the unit is that you don't have to give warlocks any equipment or a warlock power. So you're getting another body with an inv. save for little more than a tau fire warrior. Assuming you don't tool up most of the unit, 447 is achievable.

It annoys me that you don't have to give them psychic powers (though in the strike force you do - hope for the future)
 
#7 ·
Culexus assassin. They were made for that kind of thing. Get it close enough to them and you have Assault 20 weapon. Of course, you might not to fire it at the seer council themselves with their saves, but it would easily take down anything else in range.

Nemisis force weapons dont ignore invulnerables. Another assassin, the callidas, does however, and has some very nice rules. When you talk about grey knights you are probably thinking of their psycannons and incinerators. These DO ignore invulnerable saves and will cause pain to the seer council, leaving them with no save at all unless I'm mistaken. They cost alot of points, but then again, so does the seer council. A squad deepstriking with a couple of these or a couple of squads sat back shooting with psycannons would help. However, the smallest squad possible with two psycannons will run you up at 250 points!

From an imperial guard point of view, you could just charge squad after squad of conscripts into them and stop them from doing anything for the entire match. I've never tried this with seer councils before, but its worked for me against a bloodthrister, khorne beserkers, tau HQ's and the list goes on. Just sheer weight of numbers you can bring down on them. So even you dont kill them, you can take them out of the game.

Also, what points do you normally play and what else is in your opponents army?
 
#9 ·
masakari_commander said:
Culexus assassin. They were made for that kind of thing. Get it close enough to them and you have Assault 20 weapon. Of course, you might not to fire it at the seer council themselves with their saves, but it would easily take down anything else in range.

Nemisis force weapons dont ignore invulnerables. Another assassin, the callidas, does however, and has some very nice rules. When you talk about grey knights you are probably thinking of their psycannons and incinerators. These DO ignore invulnerable saves and will cause pain to the seer council, leaving them with no save at all unless I'm mistaken.
I would avoid assassins. On paper the culexus and the callidus seem like a good idea, but they're not. While the culexus is going to get a fearsome amount of firepower, he can get cut down by the seer council's pistols (I've managed it with 6), while the callidus can find herself striking after farseers (assuming enhanced to I6) and simultaneously with warlocks - it usually means you've just given the seer council a free D6" move for very little impact.

The eversor tends to be a walking terror vs anything else in the army - guardians, wraithlords etc. while the vindicare is great for taking out guardian warlocks and generally being a pain (you're still better off with a load of guns over the vindicare, though).

The best way to take out a seer council is to make it roll dice, lots of dice(or conscripts). While fortune and invulnerable saves can be frustrating to face, the more it has to roll, the more saves it will fail.
 
#10 ·
Thanks for all your advice. I might field Grey Knights as a one off in this game, though generaly I dislike allies. He has invested 1/3 of his army in a seer council so the extreme pts cost of Grey Knights shouldn't be too much of a burden.

Starcannons shouldn't be too much of a problem, as he has more or less custom buit this army to deal with guard - the only AP3 he has are Dark Reapers, so I will have to start the Grey Knights off the board or out of LOS - bring them in as soon as the reapers are off the board (usualy turn 1)!


masakari_commander said:
Also, what points do you normally play and what else is in your opponents army?
We normaly play at 1500pts.
For HQ he takes:
- Seer council (13 warlocks, 5 farseers - Eldritch Storm, Mind war, Fortune, Singing spears).
- Avatar.

Troops
- 2x Black Guardian defender squads w/ shuriken catapults
- 2x Storm Guardians w/ 2x Fusion guns.

Fast attack
- 3 Viper jetbikes with 2x Shuriken catapult (seperate squads).

Heavy Support
- 2x 3-man Dark reaper squads with Exarch + fast shot


He is pretty good at making army lists. I have to give him that, but this one I feel is far too specialised against my army.

I'm also planning on making the majority of my troops Storm Troopers in the next game.
At the moment, he has 5+ saves against my Lasguns, and I have nothing. If I take Storm Troopers, suddenly I'm on the other side of the fence, taking 4+ saves against everything but his Dark Reapers, while he has no saves on his guardians.

I like the idea of throwing 50 conscripts at the squad, and keeping it tied up for the whole game. But I fear even at Ld10 they might eventualy fall back, and Mind War would be a huge problem for the Commissar while they were out in the open. Still, you cant go far wrong for 250pts odd.
 
#12 ·
The culexus assassin can also take out the warlocks in a squad, thanks to one of its special rules. I was not suggesting an assassin to actually go into close combat with the seer council. Merely cash in on the number of extra shots that can be gained and completely destroy any other unit with 20 AP 1 shots. Also remember that if close enough to the seer council to get extra shots, they'll all be Ld 7, and in addition to that have to pass a leadership test to shoot the culexus.

The problem I see with using an assasin, and why I am now about to say you probably shouldn't have one, is not because it'll die easily. It will die, but will cause alot of damage before that, but because you will also have to take an inquisitor lord, which will end up costing you an extra 100 points or there abouts. So the assassin would also end up costing you about 250 points.

I would personally go for the conscripts as well. There are basically three options so far all for about the same price -
a) 5 Grey Knights, 2 Psycannons
b) Assassin + Inquisitor Lord with (compulsory) Henchmen
c) 50 Conscripts with Commisar

Of those, C is certainly the better one, and it avoids any allies. Grey knights are, however, practically immune to any psychich attacks. So that is slightly helpful. And, they'll make that avatar slightly less useful, since it is ofcourse, a daemon.

However, I have one other suggestion. I don't know how many normal line squads you have in your army at the moment, but more cant hurt. I like stormtroopers, but I dont think they'll handle to well by themselves, but I've never tried that. However, he doesn't have that many troops for the size of game, and you could easily pack in over 120. If he's destroying tanks too easily, stick with sentinels. They're easy to destroy any way, and equipped with heavy flamers will tear throw the guardians.
 
#13 ·
Xethemez said:
- 2x Black Guardian defender squads w/ shuriken catapults

Fast attack
- 3 Viper jetbikes with 2x Shuriken catapult (seperate squads).
Presumably these have bright lances?

I see no reason why you wouldn't butcher most of that army in turn 1 (Unless there is something else). Most of it is very vulnerable to any type of shooting.

I was not suggesting an assassin to actually go into close combat with the seer council.
I did realise that. The problem is you are investing a lot of points (something like 200 once you've got the necessary inquisitor) for the sake of one model. Those sorts of points gets you 3 fire support squads with heavy bolters, which is 27 shots that doesn't require you to have an expensive model down the throat of the enemy army. It's also three different units (with 6 wounds each) instead of one (with 2 wounds).

Add a basilisk and some mortar teams and the Guard should terrorise that eldar army. Add some conscripts (pain in the backside) and that eldar army should fall apart.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Maskari Commander had it right on with a Small Grey Knight Squad with two Psycannons, add an Elite Inquisotor with a Psycannon for 3 (9XS6, AP4 shots). Psycannons when not moving have a 36" range, are S6 and ignore Invulernable saves! If you are not playing Eldar, it is an expensive but effective squad, I have one in my Deamonhunter army every game.

The other good thing about this squad, is they have Shrouding (worse night fighting rules), so are not easily targeted from 32" plus (good vs Reapers). If he rolls, and can't see the sqaud, he can't shoot at anything else. Just put these Shiny Puritan Glory Boys back in cover and let them blaze away! By By Seer Council, Jet Bikes and Reapers!
 
#15 ·
Though it costs even more points, if you took a inquisitor lord you can take the Hammer of the Wich power, which will cause pain for the the pysker heavy army
 
#16 ·
Personally im partial to basalisks and other templates vs councial, if your lucky enough to go first a basalisk and mortars will lvl 1/2 that squad in one turn. If your not use the conscripts. The avatar shouldn't give you too much trouble, it only has a 5+ inv save not to hard if you hit it enough w/ plasma missle or las. The jet bikies dont have any upgrades on them do they? if they do just pump full of auto cannons or heavy bolters they will fall quickly enough.
5 or 6 of those suqads can die in one turn, ( reapers, avatar, guardians, and maby a jet bike). rember you out range everything in his army (sept the reapers) if you load up on any heavy weapon sept heavy bolters. If you get a cleanse mission( or any other mission that requires corner) put a single "sacrafical" squad up front to force his deployment zone back 18 inches this gives you 2-3 free turns before his concil is in charge range and at least a turn before most his army is in range. Pepper the pointy ears with enough shots and they will die quite quickly, and as the seer council get closer they start taking more wounds ( plama guns las guns and other short ranged goodies) if worse comes to worse throw some conscripts at em and finish off the rest of his army.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I too have to agree with allies from the daemonhunters codex. But personally, I would add 3 inquisitors with psycannons. 3 council killing fools for 50 pts each. Just hide them in line units and let him come to the surprise.

Possibly have an Inq lord with psychic hood hiding in the back to shut down his storms too. The cheapest that would be is about 75 points though. And if the hood works against fortune, there go all his rerolls.

Slightly off topic, isnt it strange that daemonhunters are much better at taking down such a unit than witch hunters?
 
#18 ·
Rork said:
Presumably these have bright lances?

I see no reason why you wouldn't butcher most of that army in turn 1 (Unless there is something else). Most of it is very vulnerable to any type of shooting.

Actualy they don't. In his old list they did, but he has dropped lances in favour of shuriken catapults on the Vypers. The eldritch storm speins them around and the catapults get it's worst arcs.

The guardians are bare, but they are there to distract fire away from the seer council. If I ignore them, they and the storm guardians will cut basic guardsmen to pieces. As I say, it's a very anti-guard list.

Obviously his list is pretty vulnerable, but the problem is I can either choose to take down the seer council or the rest of his army. The issuse is fielding enough firepower for both.


I looked at the Phycannon option, 2 squads of those looked like an excelent option. The problem being that the Dark Reapers will make short work of them.
I might start the Grey Knights in cover and drive up 2 hellhounds to deal with the Reapers, but obviously it will take 2 turns to execute at least, by the time the Reapers are gone I have already sacrifices a lot of shooting.

Usualy his Reapers wouldn't last longer than a turn due to the Russes, but they usualy leave behind the exarch, and they can't be deployed in the open due to the Eldritch storm.

Still, Grey Knights are deffinatley the way to do it. If I matched his seer council with 2x Phycannon armed squads, his seer council could be dead on arrival. At the very least it might make him hold back, or fleet of foot and forefit his phycic powers.
 
#19 ·
I looked at the Phycannon option, 2 squads of those looked like an excelent option. The problem being that the Dark Reapers will make short work of them.
I might start the Grey Knights in cover and drive up 2 hellhounds to deal with the Reapers, but obviously it will take 2 turns to execute at least, by the time the Reapers are gone I have already sacrifices a lot of shooting.
You know Reapers have a 4+sv? (Psycannon time...). And GK can deepstrike always. And Reaper Launchers are Ap3 (so you can use termies).

Hope that helps.

Incerators are awesome against Councils, if you DS next to them.
 
#20 ·
Xethemez said:
I looked at the Phycannon option, 2 squads of those looked like an excelent option. The problem being that the Dark Reapers will make short work of them.
Remember that Grey Knights have the Shrouding rule, so if you can put them past 30" away, you have a good chance the Reapers won't be able to fire.
 
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