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Imperial Guard Elites Regiment v.s Iron Warriors 1500 pts

1K views 16 replies 5 participants last post by  RJCRaven 
#1 ·
Mission: Seek and Destroy

Imperial Guard

Doctrines:
Grenadiers
Storm troopers
Independant Commissars
Sharpshooters
Carapace Armour

Force Organization
HQ
Command Platoon (Hardened, Carapace A, Iron Discipline)
• Heroic Senior Officer (Plasma P, Power W)
• Plasmagun
• Plasmagun
• Vet. Guardsman (S.Bolter) Medic pack
• Vet. Guardsman (S.Bolter)

Fire Support (Carapace Armour, Sharpshooters)
3 Heavy Bolters

Anti-Tank Support (Carapace Armour, Sharpshooters)
3 Lascannons [422]

Troops
Grenadiers
• 9 Stormtroopers
• Vet. Sergeant (Plasma P., Power W)
• Plasma G.
• Plasma G. [145]

Grenadiers
• 9 Stormtroopers
• Vet. Sergeant (Plasma P., Power W)
• Plasma G.
• Plasma G. [145]

Stormtroopers
• 9 Stormtroopers
• Vet. Sergeant (Plasma P., Power W)
• Plasma G.
• Plasma G. [131]

Stormtroopers
• 9 Stormtroopers
• Vet. Sergeant (Plasma P., Power W)
• Melta G.
• Melta G.
Chimera
• Multi-laser
• Hull: Heavy Bolter
• Smoke Launchers [224]

Elites
Hardened Veterans (Shotguns, Carapace Armour)
• 9 H. Veterans
• Vet. Sergeant (Plasma P, Power W)
• Meltagun
• Meltagun
• Meltagun
Chimera
• Multi-laser
• Hull: Heavy Bolter
• Smoke Launchers [238]

Independant Commissars
• 3 Commissars
• Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon, Carapace Armour [183]


Heavy Support
Leman Russ Demolisher Tank
• H. Bolter
• Heavy Bolters [165]

Iron Warriors (Rough Estimate)

• Chaos Lord with 4 Terminator Retinue
• 5 Chaos Space Marines
• 5 Chaos Space Marines
• 5 Havoks
• 5 Havoks
• 3 Obliterators
• 3 Obliterators
• 3 Obliterators
• 1 Defiler


Battle Report
Turn 1: Chaos

Obliteror Squad opened fire with Lascannons on Chimera transporting H.Veterans, Chimera exploded. H.Veterans take 5 casualties.

Obliterator Squad opened fire on Anti-Tank Sqaud with Autocannons. Anti-Tank Squad takes 3 casualties.

Defiler opens fire on Anti-Tank Squad. Morale broke and squad fled off the battle.

Obliterator Squad opened fire on Chimera escorting Stormtroopers. Chimera Immobilized.

Turn 1: Imperial Guard

Fire Support Sqaud opens fire on HQ and retinue. 1 Terminator exited as casualty.

Demolisher moved and opened fire with Heavy Bolters on Terminators. 2 Terminators exited as casualties.

Out of range, firing ceased.

Turn 2: Chaos

HQ and retinue retreated. 2 Chaos Marine Squads retreated as well.

Obliterator Squad opened fire on H.Veterans. Squad annihilated.

Obliterator Sqaud opened fire on Stormtroopers. 2 casualties.

Obliterator Squad opened fire on Demolisher. Demolisher explodes. 1 Stormtrooper saved from debris.

Defiler opened fire. Shot scattered. No wounds.

Turn 2: Imperial Guard.

Remaining Stormtroopers rushed to defend corner of battle field.

Immobilized Chimera opened fire at Obliterator Squad. No wounds.

Fire Support shots missed HQ and retinue.

Turn 3: Chaos.

Obliterators Squad opened fire on Immobilized Chimera. Crew stunned.

Obliterators Squad opened fire on moving Stormtroopers. 1 casualty.

Obliterators Squad opened fire on Grenadiers. 1 casualty.

Defiler opened fire. Shot scattered. 1 casualty on moving Stormtroopers.

Turn 3: Imperial Guard

Fire Support Squad rushed to obtain better firing position.

Grenadier Squad moved behind cover.

Stormtrooper Squad ran into forested cover.

Turn 4: Chaos

Obliterators and Defiler began slow march down right flank.

Obliterators Squad opened fire on moving Stormtroopers. 4 casualties. Leadership test passed.

Obliterators Squad opend fire on Grenadiers in cover. 3 casualties.

Obliterators Squad opened fire on Immobolized Chimera. Exploded.

Havoks Squad opened fire on Grenadiers in civer. 2 casualites.

Turn 4: Imperial Guard

Fire Support Squad opened fire on approaching Chaos Space Marines. 3 casaulties.

Grenadiers opened fire on approaching Obliterators. Burnt. No wounds.

Grenadiers opened fire on approaching Chaos Space Marines. 2 casualties. Squad removed.

Stormtroopers out of range of approaching Obliterators.

Turn 5: Chaos

Obliterators Squad opened fire on Stormtrooper squad. Commissar left Last man Standing.

Obliterators Squad did Commissar a favour and removed him from the game.

Approaching Havoks and Obliterator Squads opened fire on remaining Grenadiers. Squad removed from batlte.

Defiler opened fire on Command Squad. 5 casualties. Heroic Senior Officer last man standing. Failed leadership test, retreated off. The field as the remaining Grenadiers wailed in despair as the approaching Chaos Space Marines began to rain bolts onto them...

Final reflections

Imperial Guard committed fatal error of leaving squads exposed. Fatal error of not moving into position to fire at approaching Chaos.
 
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#2 ·
Well, this strikes me as a typical IG battle report. By which I mean, and no offense is meant here, I’m just trying to help you out, that the IG player (like most) has absolutely no idea of what he’s doing, be it in army building, army legality, weapon/troop effectiveness, troop survivability, and in-game strategy and tactics.

There’s so much wrong with the army list that it’s hard to know where to begin. Sigh.

Okay, I guess I should start by pointing out that the army is illegal. Illegal in so many ways that it makes me wonder if either player has every read the rulebook and/or Codex.

You’ve taken six Doctrines; you’re only allowed five.
You’ve claimed Stormtroopers are Troops; they’re not, they’re Elites.
You have four Elites choices.

Alright, let’s move onto the points cost. Obviously math is not anyone’s strong suit.

The HQ is 421 by my count, not 422.
Both Grenadier Squads are 140, not 145.
The first squad of Stormtroopers is 140, not 131.
The second squad of Stormtroopers is 228, not 224.
The Hardened Veterans are 218, not 238.
And the Independent Commissars are 198, not 183.

This makes for a total of 1,632. Now, I don’t know what points level this was, but the total seems very odd. Either you were way over or way under.

Finally (to keep this reply a lot briefer than it should be), here’s some basic errors in army building:

Storm Bolters – why?
Why would anyone use an HSO in such a small game, when there’s an equal but cheaper alternative?
You’ve over-equipped your command squad (always a bad idea, but especially since you’ve no delivery system in place).
You started with troops inside a transport vehicle (more than once). That’s the first thing any new player learns NOT to do.
You’ve used the very expensive but incredibly fragile Support Squads, which is inadvisable in any game but especially smaller ones.
You took Hardened Fighters, one of the worst Doctrines in the IG Codex.
You took Carapace Armour, which can sometimes (rarely) work as a Doctrine choice but not in this set-up.
You’ve taken Grenadiers, which is foolish in itself but downright stupid considering they have no transports.
You’ve taken Stormtroopers when Veterans can do everything they can do but better and cheaper – especially considering you took the Carapace Doctrine.
You wasted the Sharpshooters Doctrine on Lascannons (and on an expensive and fragile unit of Lascannons, no less).
You didn’t factory-equipped the Chimerae (nor the Demolisher, which is slightly more forgivable).
You took no Fast Attack, which is the one FOC area in which the IG are spoiled for choice. No Hellhounds? No Rough Riders? (The latter would have paid huge dividends against a slow-moving MEQ army like Iron Warriors.)



In short, unless you playing against similarly incompetent armies and players, or you just don’t care, then you’re going to lose every single time.
 
#3 ·
You’ve taken six Doctrines; you’re only allowed five.
You’ve claimed Stormtroopers are Troops; they’re not, they’re Elites.
You have four Elites choices.
He has taken grenadiers. That allows you take 3 stormtroops units as troops.
He took 2 stormtrops and one veterans for his elites and I count only 5 doctrines.

I do not understand why he took shotguns for his hardened veterans. Is my only question
IG is better off with standard troops with hvy wpns and plasma guns. He brought too many bells and whistles for his guard.
bonekrusher
 
#5 ·
bonekrusher said:
He has taken grenadiers. That allows you take 3 stormtroops units as troops.
He took 2 stormtrops and one veterans for his elites and I count only 5 doctrines.
For someone with an IG avatar, and who is presumably therefore an IG player, you don't know the rules very well. Either that or you didn't look very carefully at his army list.

He has taken six doctrines. Count them again.

He has taken two squads of Grenadiers, which he is allowed to do under the Grenadiers Doctrine rules. He is not allowed to take Stormtroopers as troops. (Although technically the units still are 'Stormtroopers' they are not referred to as such.)

He took four Elites choices, although he claimed he took two of those as Troops.
 
#7 · (Edited)
I'm afraid I'll have to defend the poor Imp Guard player, since he's me.

One, error in report. There are only five doctrines: Sharpshooters, Carapace Armour, Grenadiers, Stormtroopers, and Independant Commissars. Iron Discipline and Hardened are not in there. I forgot to remove it in the report.

The intention of the Hardened Veterans in this round was to rush to the enemy's armour, drop out, melta, and assault any one that comes near. If the armour is destroyed I don't mind what happens to them, since they've done their job. The shotguns allows for me to fire twice and yet assault the opponent. Charge them before they charge you. IG idea. At least they don't get the extra attack though doubtless the Veterans will die.

I've made a mistake with regards to the Grenadiers. Please refer to new list.

No fast attack was used cos firstly : Sentinels are too fragile against 9 Obliterators, I had no Hellhounds or Rough Riders in my inventory. I understand why everyone wants a Rough Rider Unit, I'll would have used it, but I don't have any so... hmm.

HSO was for fluff reasons.

I guess I wasn't clear enough. The first Chimera, the one transporting the H.Veterans had troops in them, true, but the second Chimera was escorting the Stormtroopers. Which means they aren't inside it, but beside it. My intention was to take out the Havok/Defiler before moving in with that squad.

Grenadiers = Stormtroopers except that they can't deep strike / infiltrate. Besides, you have to take the Stormtrooper doctrine to use Grenadiers.

Precisely due to the fragility of the support squads I added in Sharpshooters. The shots HAVE to count. Sharpshooters give me a better chance.

Ok, I'll edit the list to show you the pointage. I was in a hurry earlier so I didn't check the points. Correct me if I'm wrong...

Meanwhile, please read my thread on the 1500pts Elites Regiment for a better idea of how this regiment came about. I guess the fluffiness made the list a weak one, but I'm improvig it the best I can.

Thansk for the feedback.
 
#8 ·
Reedited List:

Doctrines:
Grenadiers
Stormtroopers
Independant Commissars
Sharpshooters
Carapace Armour

Force Organisation
HQ
Heroic Senior Officer (Plasma P. Power W.) (Carapace A.)
2 Plasmaguns
2 Vet Guardsmen (Stormbolters)
Commissar (Bolt P. Power W.) [193]

Fire Support (Carapace A. Sharpshooters)
3 H.Bolters [110]

Anti-Tank (Carapace A. Sharpshooters)
3 Lascannons [140]


Troops
Grenadiers Squad
9 Grenadiers
Vet S. (Plasma P. Power W.)
2 Plasmaguns [131]

Grenadiers Squad
9 Grenadiers
Vet S. (Plasma P. Power W.)
2 Plasmaguns [131]

Grenadiers Squad
9 Grenadiers
Vet S. (Plasma P. Power W.)
2 Meltaguns
Chimera (Multi-laser, H.Bolter, Smoke L.) [219]


Elites
Independant Commissars
3 Commissars
Bolt P. Power W. Carapace A. [188]

Hardened Veterans (Carapace A.)
9 Vet.
Vet S. (Plasma P. Power W.)
3 Meltaguns
Chimera (Multi-laser, H.Bolter, Smoke L.) [238]

Heavy Support
Demolisher
H.bolter, Sponson H.Bolters. [165]

Total: [1515]


First and foremost, I did NOT edit the list.

Yep, I guess I failed my maths. I counted Carapace Armour for I. Commissars as individual costs instead of the proper cost for the whole unit. Plus I only have 3 Grenadier Squads. And some where I have an extra 10 points...

I hope this clears things up.
 
#9 ·
RJCRaven said:
I'm afraid I'll have to defend the poor Imp Guard player, since he's me.
No need for defense. Rest assured I’m not criticizing you, just your choices. And it’s meant to be constructive criticism. I am trying to help.

RJCRaven said:
One, error in report. There are only five doctrines: Sharpshooters, Carapace Armour, Grenadiers, Stormtroopers, and Independant Commissars. Iron Discipline and Hardened are not in there. I forgot to remove it in the report.
Fair enough. That explains that.

RJCRaven said:
The intention of the Hardened Veterans in this round was to rush to the enemy's armour, drop out, melta, and assault any one that comes near. If the armour is destroyed I don't mind what happens to them, since they've done their job. The shotguns allows for me to fire twice and yet assault the opponent. Charge them before they charge you. IG idea. At least they don't get the extra attack though doubtless the Veterans will die.
Then why on earth would you buy a full squad of 10? It’s a waste of 40 points and you’re offering up an expensive unit to your enemy on a platter. And why the Chimera? Infiltrating/deepstriking (with the DropTroops Doctrine) is far more reliable.

And the IG idea about assaults is don’t. Don’t charge. Don’t be charged. Don’t charge before they charge you. Just don’t. If you are charged, forget the unit – and you should have deployed well enough to be able to do so.

RJCRaven said:
Yes, I used two Grenadier Squads as my Troops Choice. The two Stormtrooper squads are my elite choice. Excuse me for not emphasizing so earlier.
Alright, but you’ve still got four Elites choices, so your army is still illegal. I did notice on your army list elsewhere on the forum that the Stormtroopers were inquisitorial, which would make this legal. Was that the case?

RJCRaven said:
No fast attack was used cos firstly : Sentinels are too fragile against 9 Obliterators, I had no Hellhounds or Rough Riders in my inventory. I understand why everyone wants a Rough Rider Unit, I'll would have used it, but I don't have any so... hmm.
Again, fair enough. But in future, remember that Fast Attack is the first section in the IG Codex you should spend your money on.

RJCRaven said:
HSO was for fluff reasons.
Fair enough. I personally loathe the JO/HI combo as it smacks of cheese, although I do promote the double-bubble IG philosophy, which most IG players (except those who do well at tournaments) ignore.

RJCRaven said:
I guess I wasn't clear enough. The first Chimera, the one transporting the H.Veterans had troops in them, true, but the second Chimera was escorting the Stormtroopers. Which means they aren't inside it, but beside it. My intention was to take out the Havok/Defiler before moving in with that squad.
So? You still started with the Veterans inside the transport. What were you thinking? This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

RJCRaven said:
Grenadiers = Stormtroopers except that they can't deep strike / infiltrate. Besides, you have to take the Stormtrooper doctrine to use Grenadiers.
Yes, I know. I’ve already said this. Why are you telling me this, exactly?

RJCRaven said:
Precisely due to the fragility of the support squads I added in Sharpshooters. The shots HAVE to count. Sharpshooters give me a better chance.
So you take a fragile and expensive unit and to compensate for the fragility you make it more expensive and no less fragile? Hmm. How’s that work? You don’t think more guns and a lot more bodies would help? (/sarcasm)

RJCRaven said:
Ok, I'll edit the list to show you the pointage. I was in a hurry earlier so I didn't check the points. Correct me if I'm wrong...
Way wrong. If this is meant to be 1,500 then you’re nearly 200 points over.

And spending only 17% on Troops is cheesy in any army but in IG is downright foolhardy.

RJCRaven said:
Meanwhile, please read my thread on the 1500pts Elites Regiment for a better idea of how this regiment came about. I guess the fluffiness made the list a weak one, but I'm improvig it the best I can.
Thansk for the feedback.[/QUOTE]
Read it, enjoyed it.

It comes down to this question: do you want to win often, sometimes, or not at all?

If you want to win often, the whole list needs to be scrapped.

If you want to win sometimes, you have a lot of work to do.

If you don’t mind always losing, keep going with what you’ve got.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Knot Aplikabel said:
Alright, but you’ve still got four Elites choices, so your army is still illegal. I did notice on your army list elsewhere on the forum that the Stormtroopers were inquisitorial, which would make this legal. Was that the case?
I guess you wrote the post before I made the edit. And yes, that was my list. Edited.

Knot Aplikabel said:
And the IG idea about assaults is don’t. Don’t charge. Don’t be charged. Don’t charge before they charge you. Just don’t. If you are charged, forget the unit – and you should have deployed well enough to be able to do so.
I guess.

Knot Aplikabel said:
So you take a fragile and expensive unit and to compensate for the fragility you make it more expensive and no less fragile? Hmm. How’s that work? You don’t think more guns and a lot more bodies would help? (/sarcasm)
Ah, the Support squad v.s Heavy Weapon attached debate. I just feel that a Heavy weapon attached to a squad severely limits its targetting. I mean, if I attach a lascannon to an Infantry Squad, I'll be wasting 8 other shots since they all have to shoot at the same target. In a Support Squad it's free to shoot anyone without fear of wasting shots.


Knot Aplikabel said:
Again, fair enough. But in future, remember that Fast Attack is the first section in the IG Codex you should spend your money on.
Watch out for my Xenos Mount list. It should be out as soon as I confirm this, thought it might take some time...
 
#11 ·
RJCRaven said:
Grenadiers Squad
9 Grenadiers
Vet S. (Plasma P. Power W.)
2 Plasmaguns [131]
I still make these squads 140 each.

RJCRaven said:
Grenadiers Squad
9 Grenadiers
Vet S. (Plasma P. Power W.)
2 Meltaguns
Chimera (Multi-laser, H.Bolter, Smoke L.) [219]
I make this 228.

RJCRaven said:
Elites
Independant Commissars
3 Commissars
Bolt P. Power W. Carapace A. [188]
I make this 198.

RJCRaven said:
Total: [1515]
I make it 1552.

RJCRaven said:
First and foremost, I did NOT edit the list.
RJCRaven said:
Yep, I guess I failed my maths. I counted Carapace Armour for I. Commissars as individual costs instead of the proper cost for the whole unit.
Which you should. They’re not a unit, they are Independent Characters and thus have to buy their Carapace Armour (as would the HSO if he didn’t have a retinue). But their points total is wrong either way.


RJCRaven said:
Ah, the Support squad v.s Heavy Weapon attached debate. I just feel that a Heavy weapon attached to a squad severely limits its targetting. I mean, if I attach a lascannon to an Infantry Squad, I'll be wasting 8 other shots since they all have to shoot at the same target. In a Support Squad it's free to shoot anyone without fear of wasting shots.
Bollocks. Sorry, but it is just sheer nonsense. Firstly, at anything less than 24" range, you won't be wasting the shots. Secondly, this only applies to anti-tank shooting (and primarily Lascannons) within that 24" range (and let's fact it, if you're dumb or unlucky enough to let an enemy vehicle get within that 24" range then you deserve everything you get). Thirdly, you're still wasting shots with a Support Squad, just less of them, so the argument is irrelevant.

Buying HWs in line squads gives you more bodies and more guns. End of story.
 
#14 ·
For someone with an IG avatar, and who is presumably therefore an IG player, you don't know the rules very well. Either that or you didn't look very carefully at his army list.

He has taken six doctrines. Count them again
Ok looking at faq on IG. You do not need both grenadiers and stormtroopers.
One or other unless I am reading my faq wrong. Next you can take two stormtroops and one hardened veterans. That is 3 elites. Now I just count the doctrines I did not study the list army that well. Of course I do not have my IG book here so I can not count the cost on each unit.
Knot instead being negative how about helping him with his army since you are a great IG knowledge player. For example give him one of your list. Since I am idiot and do not know what I am doing.
On his list:
Carapace armor is way too expensive not worth unless you are playing tau and even then I am not sure if I would take it. I am not big fan on stormtroopers. I rather have 3 squads of hardened veterans with 2 plasma and lasercannon . If you take an indepedent commisar I would put him in 40 or 50 conscript unit as speed bump plus give him trademark and hid him in the middle.He is there for leadership. I usually put lasercannons in my regular units and run supports squads with hvy bolters. My IG army is made to shoot not to cc. So I do not use pw in any of squads including command squads unless the points left over at the end. I believe the strenght of the IG army is shooting and shooting.
Get your yourself numbers with tank support. I usually run about 100 men with 3 tanks in 1500 pt army. Of course this just my thoughts and do with them anyway you want and goodluck on your army. There is no right or wrong in running your army. Playing like the way you want. This is my way and I enjoy it .
bonekrusher
 
#15 · (Edited)
crucial said:
the ultimate battle of
'this is my army... i like it... because its my army'
VS
'change this to this and this to this... your gonna lose... take more plaZMAAZZZZZ'
Well, there's an intelligent, well-thought out response.

God forbid someone should build a themed army and like it.

God forbid someone else should try to help his army effectiveness.

What a complete waste of space that response was. Hope you're proud of yourself.
 
#16 · (Edited)
bonekrusher said:
Ok looking at faq on IG. You do not need both grenadiers and stormtroopers.
One or other unless I am reading my faq wrong.
Nope, you're reading it right. But he has both Grenadiers and Stormtroopers. That's two doctrines, not one.

Until he posted his amended list (and thus explained the additional two were an oversight), RJCRaven had seven doctrines (Carapace Armour; Grenadiers; Hardened Fighters; Independent Commissars; Iron Discipline; Sharpshooters; and Stormtroopers). End of argument.


bonekrusher said:
Next you can take two stormtroops and one hardened veterans. That is 3 elites.
Yes, and the Independent Commissars are the fourth.

bonekrusher said:
Of course I do not have my IG book here so I can not count the cost on each unit.
That was resolved via PM and RJC Raven was right. I was wrong. My apologies.

bonekrusher said:
Knot instead being negative how about helping him with his army since you are a great IG knowledge player.
Err... hello? I thought was what I was doing? And I said right from the start, this isn't negative but constructive criticism. He has a choice - play a fluffy and uneffective army and lose often, compromise and win sometimes, or throw the theme out of the window and win often. That's his choice. He doesn't have to listen to me, to you, or to anyone else.

But there was no way in hell that IG army was going to win that game (or most any other game, come to that).

bonekrusher said:
Carapace armor is way too expensive not worth unless you are playing tau and even then I am not sure if I would take it. I am not big fan on stormtroopers. I rather have 3 squads of hardened veterans with 2 plasma and lasercannon . If you take an indepedent commisar I would put him in 40 or 50 conscript unit as speed bump plus give him trademark and hid him in the middle.He is there for leadership. I usually put lasercannons in my regular units and run supports squads with hvy bolters.
I agree with everything you've said here. Well said.

bonekrusher said:
My IG army is made to shoot not to cc. So I do not use pw in any of squads including command squads unless the points left over at the end. I believe the strenght of the IG army is shooting and shooting.
Almost agree. :) IG can be surprisingly effective at close combat, despite what some people claim. But their true strength is in numbers/shooting and thus power weapons are pointless.

No IG player should (but most do) fall into the trap of "it's cheap/free so it must be good!". That's simply not true. Yes, IG get the cheapest power weapons of any army. But why bother? It's still a waste of five points, still only S3 and chances are you'll never get to use it. (The COD doctrine is another classic example - I don't think I've ever seen that played correctly and/or effectively. But it's free, so it must be good, right?:wacko:)
 
#17 ·
The reason why I took Carapace armour in this case was because I knew not many squads were not going to need it. Most of my troops were Grenadiers, so they already come with carapace armour. I gave it so I can give the H.Veterans and others a fighting chance...

But I guess I see your point. I'll go with Knot's suggestion for 6 man squads and see what shooty army i can come up with.

And please, call me Raven.
 
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