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So, when they finally get round to Blood Angels...

3K views 57 replies 24 participants last post by  ze_poodle 
#1 ·
Well, this feeds off a conversation I had with a fellow wargamer the other day, and was sparked off by the sight of the brand new DA minis on the GW site. This, naturally, got us musing as to which chapter would get redone next, and when someone uggested BAs, this lead to the next interesting point: Do you think GW will do anything to make Blood Angels more interesting, miniaturewise, along the lines of Black Templars, Dark Angels or Space WOlves? I mean, obviously there's no precedent- BAs have always been standard marine minis with a nice red colourscheme- but does anyone think GW might rectify this when they redo them (after all, BTs never had all the cool cloaks and chains, etc., before) and, if so, what exactly could we do to BA minis to make them... stand out?
 
#2 ·
other than the obvious custom vehicle sprues and such, and a nigh obligatory the Death Company, chaplain and sanguinary high priest. I think GW needs to lay off the robes, i know marines are suposed to be monastic but if they give everyone robes then they will lose much of their favor.
 
#3 ·
Definately no robes for the BA's, i mean its hard enough to deal with the black rage, but trying to get to the nearest enemy unit with robes holding you back, now thats a problem. Maybe for the BA's, some unique heads like they did for the ultramarine honor guard, or some cool new variants of the chain sword, kinda how CSMs have the curved blade. Just some small things to set them apart would be cool, just nothing over the top. The DA's are supposed to have robes, they just overused the idea for the Black Templars and Ultramarines. The DA had them first.
 
#4 ·
Honor guard will have some cool stuff, I hope. They do have the old head/power weapon metal combo that I got swords from in my original SM army(BT). I hope they keep that baal and make it look better....MEANER. Make a totally psychotic furioso....Make some cool crazed looking no helmet heads for DC.

This is all assuming that everything in the army does not change.
 
#6 ·
Hrm, that's a good point, Blood Angels primarily are just regular looking marines with no special traits.

Perhaps, and this is just wishful thinking, the more senior characters, such as commanders and what not, can have vampire fangs! :w00t: ;)

Although, I think the most obvious thing will be the tear drop of blood on the chest plate. Seems only fitting.
 
#7 ·
I wouldn't see why they'd need a new Codex, new models would be nice, a new Deather or two...
but they don't need a redo-ing, a FAQ if there are any issues to be addressed...
Same for Space wolves....

Despite what Mister Dark Angels hater over here says, the new DA codex is sweet crackers.

and it's filled with loopholes that need to be addressed that I will be utilizing to the greatest extent until then
 
#8 ·
I wouldn't see why they'd need a new Codex, new models would be nice, a new Deather or two...
but they don't need a redo-ing, a FAQ if there are any issues to be addressed...
Same for Space wolves....
We all know it won't work like that ;). They'll tie the release of a plastic drop pod to one of those codices, and probably give the BA some "pretty boy" heads to suit their artistic background.

(Wouldn't surprise me if they released some BA specific jump packs for Assault marines/honour guard)
 
#9 ·
of course, they need someway to pay the bills for that Orc universal vehicle sprue.. right?

So why not..let's retype the old BA codex in a new font, reword the RAGE so it can be manipulated by rules sticklers for a good month till a FAQ Is out, fill it with new ART, another 2 pages of fluff, and arrange it so you spend 10 minutes flipping through pages....

Release it with a Drop pod Army Battleforce that has ...

3 Drop pods, 1 tac squad, 1 vette squad, 1 dread, 1 Baal...and a chaplain and company

no no no.

2 Drop pods..

that way they have to buy another one to effectively use the battleforce.
 
#10 ·
Capes. Give everyone fat billowy Dracula capes that fly out behind the jetpacks.

We're probably going to get revised rules for Mephiston (no more T5), a new model for Dante, new Death Mask and Grail rules to better work with the new sweeping advance rules, probably a whole new set of Death Company models. They'll remove Moriar, and probably Lemartes, since they seem to be going on a less-special-characters vein with the new codices. Tycho's going to be taken out since he's possibly dead.

Maybe Tycho back as a Furioso? S'possible.

I'm just afraid they'll either A) Change the Baal or B) Change the Furioso. One of the two is going to happen, and I'm not sure which one I prefer.

Probably make us pay for Furious Charge, as well. That's going to suck.

Oh, yeah, a jump-pack Command squad. So far the only ones who can do it are Shrike and the BA Honour Guard, and I see no reason why they'd take that out. Instead they'll just revise it to make them more consistent. Honour Guard are one of the awesome aspects of Blood Angels, anyway. A well-painted Honour Guard looks pwnage.
 
#11 ·
I suspect they'll drop the black rage for anything that isn't a death company marine. Despite being an essentially codex chapter, the army on the tabletop is horribly skewed away from devastators (and to a lesser extent, tactical marines) which would be fairly common in a "proper" BA army.
 
#14 ·
Not a chance, I don't think. That's part of what the Blood Angel army is - vicious in close combat (though not the best at it compared to some other armies like Tyranids or some Chaos Legions) and has quite good shooting as well (though somewhat unreliable). I would also hate to see them explain how the Tactical Marines manage to just shrug off the Black Rage in the fluff.

The entire idea is for a Blood Angel's entire life from the moment he is implanted with the gene seed of his Chapter to be fighting against the Flaw in their genetic makeup. That's easily the coolest part of their fluff, and I can't see them removing it.

They have a clear preferance for assault squads, and rihno rushing.
A preference, yes. But that doesn't mean that it's all they do. It also isn't necessarily the most effective thing to do on the tabletop either.

Although the 4th ed rules killed the rihno.
*sighs* No it didn't... but that's for another thread.
 
#12 ·
I suspect they'll drop the black rage for anything that isn't a death company marine. Despite being an essentially codex chapter, the army on the tabletop is horribly skewed away from devastators (and to a lesser extent, tactical marines) which would be fairly common in a "proper" BA army.
But the blood angles have twice the assault squads as normal chapters, their own predator, and dreadnoughts.

To me, Devastator squads should be a rarity for blood angel armies.

They have a clear preferance for assault squads, and rihno rushing.

Although the 4th ed rules killed the rihno.
 
#13 · (Edited)
I have an odd feeling death company will be changed in terms of how you get them on the field. (aka by paying points for it instead of being random). Just a gut feeling but I never liked how people would make lists to exploit death company.

Also the sanguinary high priest will need to be cleaned up a bit to avoid confusion on the rules.

Model-wise I want to see different styles of helmets to represent their CC tendencies....and more bloodangel CC weapon variations.
 
#15 ·
The entire idea is for a Blood Angel's entire life from the moment he is implanted with the gene seed of his Chapter to be fighting against the Flaw in their genetic makeup. That's easily the coolest part of their fluff, and I can't see them removing it.
But all 5 of the dark angels special rules - including hunting the fallen, where removed.

*sighs* No it didn't... but that's for another thread.
It killed the space marine rhino rush, for assault units. And that thread has been laid to rest long ago.
 
#16 ·
But all 5 of the dark angels special rules - including hunting the fallen, where removed.
For the better of the army, yes, I agree. Intractable and Stubborn made the army less playable and less appealing for many. Hunting the Fallen was forgotten half the time anyway.
It killed the space marine rhino rush, for assault units. And that thread has been laid to rest long ago.
'Kay, we'll go by that then. As I said, not the place for this, so we can take it to PM if you really wanna.
 
#17 ·
For Angels, I thought they were being wiped away.
But if I'm wrong, and I hope I am, I'll say that the Company will be given squad upgrade options. Mind you, taking the upgrades will be more expensive than usual.

Yeah, no T5 for Mephiston, and I say the Company will be optional and will be a price per (possibly buying many more?)

I say most of the changes will be on the COmpany & the Furioso.

Oh yeah,
So, Forged...
You say the Rhino rush is , which it's not. But that's for another thread. *makes*

But you also seem to say that this thread is despite so much still left open for discussion. But the thing is that you say the thread's ... then go to say something to every little contrary thing against your omnicient wisdom. You can't help but speak in a thread you call closed? Wow. You are such a good lolcow.
 
#18 ·
<E!_Mance> said:
and I say the Company will be optional and will be a price per (possibly buying many more?)
That's never going to happen. Why? Because it involves vast changes not only in Blood Angels fluff, but the Death Company's as well. The whole root of the Black Rage is that it affects everyone in the Chapter, and that it's as unpredicatable as it is beneficial. If they start paying points for the Death Company, not only does it imply that the supposedly random bursts of pre-battle insanity can now be predicted and acted upon, but that the entire company can simply be ignored - as if suddenly, the Blood Angels cured the Black Rage because they decided it would be inconvenient for this particular battle.

If they did do the above, I'd boycott GW in protest. It's stupid and it would ruin every reason I and many others chose to play Blood Angels in the first place. The DC as it is now is random, unpredictable, and incredibly potent. I don't want that changed. It's fun this way.

Besides, the only Death Company rule that can really be exploited is the free powerfist, which should definitely be revised because it encourages the Naked Sergeant, which is equally unfluffy. As much as I love powerfists in the Death Company, I hate to see four five-man Scout squads missing their Veteran Sergeants.

To me, Devastator squads should be a rarity for blood angel armies.
Common misconception. The Codex states that the Blood Angels have as many Devastators as other Chapters despite their illness; there's even a splinter of fluff where Chaplain Lemartes uses his Anti-Black-Rage Power to stop some HB devastators from charging the Tyranids. And you'll find they do very well in shooting, particularly with the Baal's 12 possible shots per turn.

They should take out Mephiston's T5 and give him Feel No Pain. That works. He is constantly Raging, after all.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Intractable and Stubborn made the army less playable and less appealing for many. Hunting the Fallen was forgotten half the time anyway.
Intractable was the only bonus to the army. Except for ravenwing.

Anyway, Hunting the Fallen was as large a fluff element as the black rage. All be it, it was a horrible and boring special rule. Unlike the black rage which is useful and well worked out.

Still, Gw seems quite willing to dispatch much of what used to be 3rd ed armies.

codex states that the Blood Angels have as many Devastators as other Chapters despite their illness;
Page number? Im not aware of any mention of devastators in the codex, other then they are a valid unit for blood angels to field.

I rarely have enough points to field devastators in a blood angel army. And probably wouldnt have the Heavy support slots even if i wanted to.

Its hard to argue with 2 baals, and a dreadnought, very effective for the points, fluffy units, that complement the mobility and fighting style of the chapter well.
 
#20 ·
I really hope that they reduce the cost for Rhinos and Razorbacks or change the overcharged engine rules. The way they are now you are forced to pay extra for a useless feature...

I would love to see a honour guard at a reasonable price too...
 
#21 ·
I really hope that they reduce the cost for Rhinos and Razorbacks or change the overcharged engine rules. The way they are now you are forced to pay extra for a useless feature...
That's IF they keep the overcharged engine rules.

And I don't think the BA's are the kind of guys for robes/ tabbards. Capes maybe since it would be more dramatic to have a cape than a robe.. I think the death company will have a lot of chains on them and their weapons, similar to the BT's. I mean, the DC are meant to have lost the plot so they will want to hold onto their weapons while foaming at the mouth and screaming at the enemy.
 
#22 ·
Stuff I'll Expect in C:BA based on C:DA changes

Folks,

This doesn't exactly answer the question about new models for the Blood Angels, but here are the other changes that I expect to see for C:BA based on the changes of C:DA.

1. A new method for generating the Death Company. Although I like the random system, I'll bet we will get a 'pay as you go' system in which each DC will cost a set price, with limited options (e.g. one out of every three DC can upgrade to a PW for XX points or a PF for YY points). This will resolve current issues with the 'unfairness of the DC' while making the long-lost Terminator and Bike Squads worth getting again.

2. Librarians won't be nerfed, but rather will gain a couple interesting proprietary Psychic powers to make them worth getting. Some folks are complaining about DA Librarian's loss of FoTD and FoTA, but that Force Barrier power is going to make them damn near invulnerable.

3. Honor Guard and Veteran Assault Squads will come with Terminator Honours standard, but this won't cost nearly as much as it currently does. I see them being somewhere in the 28-30 points per model range (having Jump Packs), which would make them a viable option. This is based on how the Company Veteran's have turned out for the DA.

4. Combat Squad rule will be implemented and all Power Armour marines will come with a Bolt Pistol, Krak, and Frag Grenades as standard. Some folks think this will be a DA only thing, but I expect it is going to be the new standard template for all Marines (based on 2nd Edition); only time will tell.

5. Scouts will become Elite FOC choices. This will be done for the same reason as it was for the DA, to ensure Tactical Marines form the core of every marine force, and to prevent Scouts from being "over-represented" in army lists.

6. An adjustment to OCE. I can see Rhinos getting cheaper (but still more expensive than DA Rhinos, due to the OCE), and an extended movement range, beyond 12". BA may get special rules to disembark, even beyond 12", but wouldn't get to assault (thus preventing a return of the Rhino Rush). As an alternative idea that I just had, OCE Rhinos could simply be given the Scout USR to represent the benefit of the OCE as the battle begins, and that would be enough. Hey, I really like this one - someone should send it in to the developers. Scout was given to the Ravenwing, so I could see something similar happening with OCE rhinos.

7. The Baal Predator will no doubt go up in price.

8. I don't think Death Masks need much of a change, but I can see an adjustment to the Grail, such as the unit always gets a 6" Consolidation move, etc.

9. I'm not sure if they'll mess with Black Rage or not. My guess is they'll keep it pretty much the way it is.

10. Each different type of character/HQ choice will offer advantages to the army in different ways. In C:DA each HQ choice isn't just a strong model themselves, each offers different advantages for the army.

That's all for now, I suppose.

Regards,

Valerian
 
#23 ·
I can see them making BAs pay for the Black Rage. Even if it makes your dev squads move occasionally at a poor moment, the rest of the time it's a huge benefit.

...same with Feel No Pain somehow.

And I hope they fix the "6 5-man scout squad; I'm abusing the Death Company!" lists somehow.

Honestly...there needs to be a better way to figure out how many members of your DC you've got. Even if it's just paying a few points for a few models per squad to switch over at the start of the game on a 4+ die roll or something so that you actually pay something for them. At least to keep it consistent and a bit more fair to all involved (losing termies sucks...so does finding out your opponent lost 10 scouts and gained 10 assault marines with Feel no Pain pretty much for free.)
 
#24 ·
3. Honor Guard and Veteran Assault Squads will come with Terminator Honours standard, but this won't cost nearly as much as it currently does. I see them being somewhere in the 28-30 points per model range (having Jump Packs), which would make them a viable option. This is based on how the Company Veteran's have turned out for the DA.
I hope the simply have the option to do so. Or perhaps just make that an option for vets, and give it to the honour guard at a slight point break.

4. Combat Squad rule will be implemented and all Power Armour marines will come with a Bolt Pistol, Krak, and Frag Grenades as standard. Some folks think this will be a DA only thing, but I expect it is going to be the new standard template for all Marines (based on 2nd Edition); only time will tell.
I hope not. This really destroys one of the best armies around, with a surprisingly versatile and effective forces.

5. Scouts will become Elite FOC choices. This will be done for the same reason as it was for the DA, to ensure Tactical Marines form the core of every marine force, and to prevent Scouts from being "over-represented" in army lists.
I dont terribly like this idea. Scouts for BAs really dont have anything special, in fact they are so unspecialized they can only hold basic wargear most of the time. Anyway, I think a much better way to solve this problem would be to make tactical squads either 1+ or maybe even 2+

That way every force has at least 1 or 2 tactical squads - 2 if you really want to make sure people field tactical marines. Similar to Codex Space Wolves.
OCE Rhinos could simply be given the Scout USR to represent the benefit of the OCE as the battle begins, and that would be enough. Hey, I really like this one - someone should send it in to the developers. Scout was given to the Ravenwing, so I could see something similar happening with OCE rhinos.
This seems a bit crazy to me, first it seems unfluffy, what about an APC is scouting? Secondly the rihno would be considerably better, and cant see it having any point break at all - unless extra armor is gonna cost 3x points for them as well.

Id also guess that sanguinary high priests will probably different - since chaplains do the same thing now.

Good Post.

One thing is for sure, they are intending to make a lot of changes - I think BTs where first because they got the least amount of change - and look how different they are.
 
#25 ·
Forged,

Great comments, thanks. I'll address a few things below.


I hope the simply have the option to do so. Or perhaps just make that an option for vets, and give it to the honour guard at a slight point break.
Since in the Dark Angels Codex the Command Squad and Company Veterans come standard with Terminator Honours, I'm betting on Honour Guard and VAS getting it standard, too. The good news is, even though it isn't optional, they come at a much more reasonable price than what it costs in C:SM. Of course this, like the rest of my points, is all supposition and guesswork. Only time will tell.

I hope not. This really destroys one of the best armies around, with a surprisingly versatile and effective forces.
We'll see, after all, it might not even happen. I'm in the camp that doesn't think the Combat Squad rule hurts that much anyway; certainly not enough to destroy the army. Blood Angels are one of my four armies, and I max-out my tactical squads anyway, so this doesn't disadvantage me. It provides a pretty decent boon, however, by allowing one to split a Dev Squad while taking up only one HS slot (leaving me room for a Baal Predator and a Dreadnought). This I really like.

I dont terribly like this idea. Scouts for BAs really dont have anything special, in fact they are so unspecialized they can only hold basic wargear most of the time. Anyway, I think a much better way to solve this problem would be to make tactical squads either 1+ or maybe even 2+.
That way every force has at least 1 or 2 tactical squads - 2 if you really want to make sure people field tactical marines. Similar to Codex Space Wolves.
The issue isn't so much that the BA scouts are great, but that there are folks out there that neglect the Tactical Squads and take tons of little Scout Squads with "naked Veteran Sergeants" to feed as many cheap models and 'free' Power Fists into their Death Company. By moving them to the Elite slot, this will be prevented. Of course, giving a minimum limit to the number of Tactical Squads, as you suggested, will help. This might become a moot issue, however, if they do end up changing how the Death Company is generated, as that might preclude this tactic from working. However, based on the Dark Angel change, I think this move is certainly still a possibility.

This seems a bit crazy to me, first it seems unfluffy, what about an APC is scouting?
The rhino wouldn't really be doing an Scouting (e.g. reconnaissance), it's just that the Scout USR would be a simple convention to reflect the advantage of having those overcharged engines. This would give them an additional move prior to the start of the game, instead of an additional +6 inches every turn. This move would be good to have sometimes, but as this happens prior to rolling to see who goes first, it might just leave you exposed to enemy fire. Regardless, it was just an idea.

Secondly the rihno would be considerably better, and cant see it having any point break at all - unless extra armor is gonna cost 3x points for them as well.
Yes, I certainly expect a similar price hike for Extra Armor and some of the other options, just as was done with the Dark Angels. As far as where the points cost should be, that will be determined by the games designers when they playtest, but since rhinos were reduced for DA, I expect ours will as well (although with OCE, still more expensive than the DAs, just less than they are now).

Id also guess that sanguinary high priests will probably different - since chaplains do the same thing now.
That is absolutely correct, and something I forgot to go into. One thing that is different about the Blood Angel background is that the SHP really plays a role more like a Chaplain does in other chapters, while the Chaplain attends to the Death Company; he is "Solely dedicated to guarding against the Black Rage". I'd really like to see this manifested in the rules with BA Chaplains being distinct and unique compared to other Chaplains, and some additional attention given to the SHP.

I think the Dark Angels Codex did a terrific job of making each HQ choice a viable one, including the often neglected Company Captain. I expect they'll do justice to the choices for the Blood Angels, as well, and we will have quite the delimma deciding which of the 4 types of characters to take.

Good Post.
Thank you very much.

One thing is for sure, they are intending to make a lot of changes - I think BTs where first because they got the least amount of change - and look how different they are.
I don't doubt this one bit. I'm really pleased with how things are going, and am awaiting with eager anticipation to see how they treat two of my favorite armies: the Blood Angels and my Space Wolves.

Best regards,

Valerian
 
#26 ·
If the death company is generated differently, i see a lot of things changing in the style of play for BAs. Assuming it doesn't which is probably a long shot-

I'm in the camp that doesn't think the Combat Squad rule hurts that much anyway;
I dont see this as an advantage, or disadvantage.

certainly not enough to destroy the army. Blood Angels are one of my four armies, and I max-out my tactical squads anyway, so this doesn't disadvantage me. It provides a pretty decent boon, however, by allowing one to split a Dev Squad while taking up only one HS slot (leaving me room for a Baal Predator and a Dreadnought). This I really like.
Well it makes taking 5 man tactical squads with Lascannon and Vet Ssgt with auspex harder. Im quite fond of these units now - the enemy almost entirely ignored them and with black rage they often seem to be the unit take objectives/quarters for me.

I suppose this would be ok if they kept Furious charge for free as well.

The issue isn't so much that the BA scouts are great, but that there are folks out there that neglect the Tactical Squads and take tons of little Scout Squads with "naked Veteran Sergeants" to feed as many cheap models and 'free' Power Fists into their Death Company. By moving them to the Elite slot, this will be prevented. Of course, giving a minimum limit to the number of Tactical Squads, as you suggested, will help. This might become a moot issue, however, if they do end up changing how the Death Company is generated, as that might preclude this tactic from working. However, based on the Dark Angel change, I think this move is certainly still a possibility.
I suppose, but assuming death company stay as an elite choice, that doesn't offer a lot of verity in choices. Since scout squads really should be used at a minimum of 2 squads. (assuming you want to use them as a unit instead of a cheap death company member)

This would give them an additional move prior to the start of the game, instead of an additional +6 inches every turn. This move would be good to have sometimes, but as this happens prior to rolling to see who goes first, it might just leave you exposed to enemy fire. Regardless, it was just an idea.
I can see this bringing back rhinos, it would be fun. However I think Tau players would probably go crazy. Since pathfinders must select a devilfish, and have the scout rule, but cant scout in the devil fish.

Yes, I certainly expect a similar price hike for Extra Armor and some of the other options, just as was done with the Dark Angels. As far as where the points cost should be, that will be determined by the games designers when they playtest, but since rhinos were reduced for DA, I expect ours will as well (although with OCE, still more expensive than the DAs, just less than they are now).
I think this was motived by a modeling restriction rather then play testing. That is, I think GW got tired of tracks being glued on the front and called extra armor. They should have made it like spirit stones, or changed the fluff. And said the extra armor is on the inside.

I don't doubt this one bit. I'm really pleased with how things are going, and am awaiting with eager anticipation to see how they treat two of my favorite armies: the Blood Angels and my Space Wolves.

Well so far, I'm not impressed with the new DAs, my guess is the chaos codex which is likely to come out before BA/SW will probably hold some answers. That is, will they remain strong as they are now, or soften a bit. And the Chaos codex also foreshadowed quite a bit of detail about what would be in the space marine codex. For example the wargear/armory of the chaos codex is nearly the same for codex space marines, minus all the demonic gifts.
And veteran skills are quite similar to traits.

Cheers,
Forged.
 
#27 ·
Personnally, I find Scouts to be VERY fluffy for BA. Scouts in normal "Codex" chapters are typically marines that are still in the middle of their 7 year (?) process of being made into marines. The BA (and successor chapters) make their marines a bit differently and it A) doesn't take nearly as long and B) has NO interuptions while they are in the coffin. That means that they are typically better (more genetically enhanced) than other scouts and are often marines that have mearly chosen the path of stealth and shock tactics.

I often take two scout and two tactical squads. The tactical squads (with bolters and a heavy) provide fire support (melee help if able) and the scouts get close to rapid fire (the squad with bolters) or assult (CCW and Pistol) this approach has always worked well for me and I can't ever think of leaving my beloved tactical squads at home.

I'll admit though, I take a "naked sergeant" on my rapid fire scouts since I don't need him for weapons and scouts pay less than tactical marines for terminator honors. I do give him a Combi-weapon from time to time in all fairness, but not always.
 
#28 ·
I cannot fathom a single reason as to why Blood Angels Scouts would become an Elites choice. They're novices; the very definition of novice is opposed to the definition of elite. Moreover, I cannot see anything wrong with taking all-scout Troops choices. What are you complaining about? Your opponent just gave up his greatest advantage (3+ save) to get a couple of extra assault marines whose Feel No Pain save can be bypassed by anyone with a brain and a battle cannon. Bring on the heavy bolters! Show me the gauss blasters! Hit me with plasma missiles! All cheap, versatile and readily available ways to totally screw over that bastard trying to pull a Naked Sergeant.

Besides, not to mention the 200-points-minimum Chaplain someone needs to take just to use the DC effectively. I see no problem with this.

I maintain the current method for selecting Death Company is entirely reasonable and entirely balanced. All that's needed is to remove the free power fist rule, because that's the only part that makes no sense. Giving them a regular points cost implies that their presence is planned - and who can plan murderous insanity? It's illogical.

I think the Combat Squads rule is silly and unnecessary, and would greatly appreciate if it would be ignored for all future codices. There isn't even a basis for it in the Codex Astartes. The Ultramarines follow it to the letter, and they can get eight man squads.
 
#29 ·
I cannot fathom a single reason as to why Blood Angels Scouts would become an Elites choice. They're novices; the very definition of novice is opposed to the definition of elite.
Actually, unlike the other chapters, Blood Angels scouts are not the novices (neophytes), but are taken from the most fiery individuals in the chapter...(I don't have my codex with me, but it says some such thing as that).

Moreover, I cannot see anything wrong with taking all-scout Troops choices. What are you complaining about? Your opponent just gave up his greatest advantage (3+ save) to get a couple of extra assault marines whose Feel No Pain save can be bypassed by anyone with a brain and a battle cannon.
Not everyone has a battle cannon. It is a simple fact that trading as many cheap scouts for very tough Death Company is a good deal for a BA player.

Bring on the heavy bolters! Show me the gauss blasters! Hit me with plasma missiles! All cheap, versatile and readily available ways to totally screw over that bastard trying to pull a Naked Sergeant.
It is true that scouts are vulnerable to certain weapons, but they have an advantage of combining Infiltrate with Furious Charge, which means a BA player with 6 or more squads of scouts can usually get through your AP 4 firepower and into close combat in a turn or two.

Besides, not to mention the 200-points-minimum Chaplain someone needs to take just to use the DC effectively.
Sure, he is expensive, but he comes with 4-6 additional DC, and grants all of the DC the Litanies of Hate reroll. This is in no way a drawback, and is a bargain for the points.

I think the Combat Squads rule is silly and unnecessary, and would greatly appreciate if it would be ignored for all future codices. There isn't even a basis for it in the Codex Astartes.
Actually there most definitely is a basis for it in the Codex Astartes, I can provide old references from as far back as Rogue Trader and 2nd edition if you like. However, the Codex Astartes is a part of the background, and has never been published.

The Ultramarines follow it to the letter, and they can get eight man squads.

The Ultramarines are certainly supposed to follow the Codex Astartes to the letter, however, it has not been published. What was published was a Codex: Space Marines, which was designed with some flexibility for divergence from the pure strictures of the Codex Astartes. However, with the publication of the Dark Angels Codex, and the reemergence of the Combat Squads rule (which was in the first two editions of the game) I think it is fairly clear that the designers have decided that they ought to go back to more 'Codex' army lists.

Valerian
 
#31 ·
Fact A: Ultramarines follow the Codex Astartes to the letter.
Fact B: Ultramarines can take eight-man Tactical squads.
Conclusion: The Codex Astartes allows for one to take eight-man Tactical squads.
Actually, ultra marines use nid hunters, a unit not in codex Astartes.

Secondly, if this codex where codex Artartes then marine profiles would been to be vastly upgraded to use Artartes marines: 'fluff marines'

WS5, BS 5, S6, T6, W2, I5, A2, LD 10

Bolter profile: S6, AP 4. Heavy 5 range 48 inches, or assault 10, range 18 inches.

Frag grenades: S6, small blast, AP 4.

Krak grenades, S8, AP1, special rules: automatic crew shaken.

Anyway, i think the best solution is to simply make tactical squads 2+

Very simple solution.
 
#33 ·
Secondly, if this codex where codex Artartes then marine profiles would been to be vastly upgraded to use Artartes marines: 'fluff marines'

WS5, BS 5, S6, T6, W2, I5, A2, LD 10

Bolter profile: S6, AP 4. Heavy 5 range 48 inches, or assault 10, range 18 inches.

Frag grenades: S6, small blast, AP 4.

Krak grenades, S8, AP1, special rules: automatic crew shaken.
Forged, come on now. I think you and everyone else knows that this is a pretty weak argument. Even if these stats were given to us by GW, we can never expect them to actually let Marines work this way. They'd be totally unfair almost no matter how many points they cost.

I think it's a good time to cut your losses and admit that you're wrong rather than randomly make things up to prove your point which is already out on a limb.
 
#32 · (Edited)
I have a few points, though it is possible I'm wrong I don't believe I am.

A) Blood Angels do put their novices into the scouts for introduction to chapter fighting style and basic training in war and stealth (something all space marines are supposed to know even if they don't use it.) Unlike other chapters though, some chose to stay with the scout because they take to it, or just prefer it, over other forms of war. I'd say that this should make BA Scouts (the "novices" most likely) a troop choice but standard scout should be elites to BA with MAYBE a few more options. That is just my opinion.

B) +2 for Tactical Squads would be a bit much. I may field that much anyway but what if your task force is supposed to represent the 10th Company (scout company)? What if your force is a recon group quickly supported by fast assault options (death company, vehicles, etc.) +1 would go a long way to balancing it without overdoing tactical squads. They may be the main force in space marine armies but they aren't ALWAYS present. Space Wolves form a president for a +1 (Grey Hunters aren't always present in space wolves armies but they MUST include one)

C) I've had my Death Co. torn up by people many, many times and it isn't an insermountable challenge to experienced player. Yes, you have to play smart. Yes, some forces will have to get a little lucky. Most balanced armies can take it out in one round of constant shooting though. Trust me, good BA players quickly learn not to bank on their Death Co.

D) 6 Scout Squads should result in the player being dragged out to an alley and hit with blunt objects (I'm not recommending it so don't sue.) This, also, is beatable by chump blocks with massed firepower. I'd hate to see the SoB to try this trick on tau and expect it to work. Sure they kill something, but they'd set thier whole army up for fire warrior rapid fire. Other armies learn to do similar. Conscripts, kroot, cultists, guardians (who shoot, then chump block), a few Necron Warriors, groots, boyz, scouts, ripper swarms, and others all make great chump blockers few armies should go without.

E) Please, don't try to base reasoning on the Codex: Astartes. It hasn't EVER been printed in any form, except parts of it placed in Index Astartes, and as far as we know the eight man tactical squad took two casualties before the battle and the Dark Angels force the three remaining men to wait out the fight because their jerks. We don't know, we aren't space marines. We only know what has actually been printed and Codex: Astartes isn't it.
 
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#35 ·
Right. I'll spell out my problems with the Combat Squads rule for you and you can hopefully lower yourself to consider my opinion.

The rule is unnecessary, troublesome, and designed to force players into creating certain types of list over others. I can see no reason why all Space Marine players must have two squads of Tactical Marines. I can also see no reason why they must all be either five or ten men squads, other than it limits their ability to take eight man squads, or six-man squads if they'd rather not take morale tests after two casualties, or nine-man squads if they need to save fifteen points somewhere. Or, indeed, why they must take Tactical Marines at all, considering that all Chapters - and this is in the Codex Astartes as well - must have a 10th Company formed entirely out of Scouts, Scout Bikes, and Land Speeders.

Therefore, the Dark Angels codex and the changes you are supporting present not a progression, but a regression to an older standard of the rules, and rather than open new options to players, serve only to restrict old ones. We now must take five-man Marine squads. Our Chaplain must have a Chapter Standard. Our Land Speeder squads now must contain a Typhoon. The player no longer has the choice of powergaming; the choice has been taken from him.

I don't want this to happen with Blood Angels. I like Blood Angels being random and fluid; I like being able to take Scouts and Tactical Marines interchangeably should I so desire. I like having an indeterminate number of Death Company, I like the threat that I might lose a turn's Devastator shooting to a 1, I like the fifty-fifty chance my Furioso has of actually getting into combat and damn it, I like being able to take eight-man fire support squads, which are my favourite number.

You seem to be motivated out of a desire to play 2nd edition rules rather than 4th. So I say this: go back and play 2nd edition. We moved on for a reason.

I play all-Scouts Blood Angels. My opponent countered with infiltrating heavy bolter devastators. That game was the most fun I'd ever had losing. I cannot, and still cannot, foresee a universe in which restricting me from having fun is possibly preferable to letting me have fun. It's a game. Can I just play it already?
 
#36 ·
Ze Poodle,

This post was much better than your last. The tone is much more appropriate and it truly invites open dialogue about the matter at hand. I, for one, appreciate the change, and will try to match it.


Right. I'll spell out my problems with the Combat Squads rule for you and you can hopefully lower yourself to consider my opinion.
I will consider anyone and everyone's opinion when it is presented in a mature fashion.

The rule is unnecessary, troublesome, and designed to force players into creating certain types of list over others. I can see no reason why all Space Marine players must have two squads of Tactical Marines. I can also see no reason why they must all be either five or ten men squads, other than it limits their ability to take eight man squads, or six-man squads if they'd rather not take morale tests after two casualties, or nine-man squads if they need to save fifteen points somewhere.
Okay, well, I understand that you don't see the need for the change and it troubles you. However, apparently the designers have noted a trend in what has been happening with SM lists and how they're being constructed in this edition of the game. A lot of those trends aren't in keeping with what the designers had in mind, so they're moving toward making adjustments to 'fix' the issue. Sure some folks won't be happy with it, but the designers certainly have the freedom to mold the game as they see fit to make the armies work the way they envisioned them to.

Or, indeed, why they must take Tactical Marines at all, considering that all Chapters - and this is in the Codex Astartes as well - must have a 10th Company formed entirely out of Scouts, Scout Bikes, and Land Speeders.
True, this is part of the background, which I certainly feel should inform the construction of the rules. However, as I understand the background, the Reserve and Scout companies were not made to fight independently, but rather to reinforce the Battle Companies, as needed. I'm sure we could all dream up and justify an opportunity for them to be on their own, but when it comes down to it, we have to look at what the designers expect when they picture a Space Marine army (of any kind) in their mind's eye; at its core should be a healthy number of trusty Tactical Marines. Just as the core of an IG detachment should be infantry platoons, and Fire Warrior for a Tau force.

They have, of course, made a few unique exceptions to this. Most notably, the Deathwing and Ravenwing are unique Space Marine formations that do not have Tactical Marines at their core. However, the norm is a small detachment of Tactical Marines with other various assets of the Chapter supporting them.

Therefore, the Dark Angels codex and the changes you are supporting present not a progression, but a regression to an older standard of the rules, and rather than open new options to players, serve only to restrict old ones. We now must take five-man Marine squads. Our Chaplain must have a Chapter Standard. Our Land Speeder squads now must contain a Typhoon.
The designers are just taking the game back to its roots, and that's okay by me. Almost all of these changes are meant to make these armies truer to the background material. Hell, the background material is the only reason I still am in this hobby; if the designers have decided to start to put more emphasis on that they you will get no complaints from me. Sure, players have lost some options in the Dark Angels Codex, but they've also gained a lot as well (a discussion for another topic, please).

The player no longer has the choice of powergaming; the choice has been taken from him.
I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with you that this is a bad thing.

I like having an indeterminate number of Death Company
I enjoy this as well, and it does fit the "fluff"; although the size of the Death Company for a given army list probably does not fit the background very well. I can't imagine that the Chapter would last very long if their were a greater than 50% chance of a Marine going to the DC for every squad, prior to every battle.

However, although the random method for DC generation might be more "fluffy", it becomes less "fair". Since the whole basis for army construction is one of 'purchasing' units based on their 'value' to the army, a system that works otherwise within an army list is going to cause problems. This is why, for Blood Angels, Scouts = Good whereas Bikes and Terminators = Bad.

Blood Angels have as many Bikes and Terminators as pretty much any other Chapter, but you almost never see one on the table, because our DC generation system discourages their inclusion. Wouldn't you like to have an Codex that didn't? I know I would.

I like the threat that I might lose a turn's Devastator shooting to a 1, I like the fifty-fifty chance my Furioso has of actually getting into combat.
As do I, and I don't expect this will change.

and damn it, I like being able to take eight-man fire support squads, which are my favourite number.
My Devastator Squads and Assault Squads are also have eight Marines in each. However, I don't mind a bit having to add another two to each. In fact, if I get to split my Devastator Squad with the Combat Squad rule, then that will make it much more useful, when combined with my Baal Predator and Dreadnought.

You seem to be motivated out of a desire to play 2nd edition rules rather than 4th. So I say this: go back and play 2nd edition. We moved on for a reason.
This is an odd statement. I suppose it was motivated by my approval of the move in their latest Codex to align the Dark Angels army list with their background material. Perhaps this does hearken back to how army lists were formed under 2nd edition. In this case you are correct, I do support this change of emphasis. I do not, however, wish to go back to the unweildy Core Ruleset of 2nd edition (although there are aspects of it that I did like).

I cannot, and still cannot, foresee a universe in which restricting me from having fun is possibly preferable to letting me have fun. It's a game. Can I just play it already?
Oh I am sure that you would still have fun. Even if the designers force you to play with Tactical Marines. If that kind of change really ruins the game for you that would be most unfortunate.

Regards,

Valerian
 
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