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Ultramarines: Why do people mock them?

8K views 132 replies 43 participants last post by  Saraneth 
#1 ·
So the more i think about different chapters, i start to see that the Ultramarines really are the only "true" marines, in that they can do most everything reasonably well. What i wonder is why people mock and dont care for them as much as i think they deserve. Maybe im just crazy. lol
 
#2 ·
Exactly that. They do everything reasonably well. Which means, in turn, they don't do anything exceptionally well. They don't own melee combat like Blood Angels or Templar, they aren't quite as shooty as the Dark Angels, aren't as manuverable as Raven Wings, aren't as feral and fierce as Space Wolves, etc. etc.

Not to say they're bad. They're not. They're just not special.
 
#3 ·
I think the ultramarines are actually quite good - and like any marine army, they can still be taylored towards certain types, such as more shooty, more hth, more balanced. They excel at balanced, however, which in my mind is a very good thing - seeing as sometimes you never know who you are going up against next. I also feel that tayloring your army vs a specific opponent as a little unsporting.

However, I personally feel the main reason people might pick on ultramarines is the fact that they seem to be the most commonly fielded marine army out there. Or at least where I'm from they are.


And most of those armies are in the hands of newcomers to the game as well, which may perhaps give them an incorrect reputation of being more easily beaten.
 
#4 ·
Personally, I hate blue.
 
#5 ·
A lot of newbies play smurfs, which tends to incur the ire of the vets since it's rather unoriginal. And using Ultramarines blue looks horrible from an inexperienced painter compared to the hands of a good painter who is probably using regal blue.
 
#6 ·
It was mostly a 3rd edition problem. You where either an ultra boring marine, or a non-codex chapter (which actually meant you get a codex of your own, such as DA/BT/BA/SW, Ironically.)

With the trait system, that allows players to really have different rules from ultra marines, thus allowing the true ultra marine lovers to shine, and it also helps shoot many of the newbie players into tactically stupid, but cool sounding chapters, like raven guard, or Iron hands.

But, if you run across an army which looks poorly painted, and is ultra marines, they are almost certainly a poor player, and thus ultra marines have earn a reputation for being bad. As it currently stands, they are probably better then DA/BTs, and almost as good as space wolves, while blood angels are probably the best, but are about to get the [Expletive Deleted] nerfed out of them.
 
#8 ·
Ass cannon jealousy. That's what I say it is.

Also, their primarch was a bit of a jerk to be honest. He didn't really do anything exceptional. Except get beaten by the Alpha Legion. That was pretty cool.
 
#10 ·
Aah.. Fulgrim got him in the end - you're quite right.

But after he allegedly killed Alpharius, the Alpha Legion kicked his blue behind rather thoroughly.

OK, so he was defeated by two Chaos Legions then. :)
 
#12 ·
I don't like them as they don't go on great crusades (BT), wear hoodies like the cool kids (DA), are man's best friend (SW), or have visions of their primarch and go crazy and kill everything (BA). Ultramarines are boring compared to those. Plus I have always hated their special characters. Ok so they have a master with twin powerfists, some bolters that somehow count as stormbolters instead of twinlinked, and some rule allowing him to choose on leadership. The have a librarian that is twice as powerful as all other librarians, some vets that get special bullets, and some sweet looking honor guard. I'm actually planning a conversions that involves the death of Calgar, using the honor guard as Emperors Children.

I HATE Ultramarines! In case you couldn't tell
 
#13 · (Edited by Moderator)
That is why I like them. They don't go on near pointless crusades, in which they are presecuted for, wear hoodies like the ____ around here, or go brezerk. They ARE NOT boring due to their adaptability. You can do anything, while other chapters are only good at one thing. All their characters are this way BECAUSE of the many many MANY years of hardened battle and surviving many onslaughts by the 'nid's and orks. They have these 'special' bullets due to the fact they fight 'Nids all the time. Overall, I think they are a great chapter, just have a bad rep due to noobs playing them all the time (No offense noobs). - Now, that wasn't very nice at all, was it? Let's not gay bash, lest we find ourselves being rep-bashed, hmmm? - Firedrake28
 
#15 ·
I'm sorry, I did not realise that in differant parts of the country/world, different words can mean different things. Down here, that word has NOTHING to do with a sexual preferance, and I appologize if I affended anyone in any way shape or form.

Other than that, I do think another reason for Ultramarine hatred is because they are on EVERYTHING. It may just be the fact that it seems like its the standard for anything, that most players decide to go against the management and do something else.
 
#16 ·
Ultramarines aren't liked because they're the poster-boys of the Marines. They're the default--the generic--the vanilla, and most people look at that and think, either: "Boring!" or "let's be rebellious and play one of the really deviant chapters."

'Cause it's cool to be rebellious. =P

Ultramarines are a legitimately interesting chapter, even if the only thing that distinguishes them from other chapters is, really, a lack of special distinguishing features. That's the other gripe. They're just like other marines--with less options (as new deviant chapter lists get released, Dark Templar, Dark Angels, etc, this is getting fixed--these new chapters are getting drawbacks to go with their extra options, and I think that's appropriate).

I love Ultramarines precisely because they are the poster-boys of Marines. These guys are the Good Guys. They're the clean, pure, honourable killing machines). Their Legion was hands-down the most powerful, and their Primarch gave up that power in order to convince the remaining loyal Primarchs to split up their own Legions for the good of the Empire. They have a great fluff, a great background, and the fact that they don't have special rules ends up singling them out as a chapter just fine. They are the codex chapter--from which all other chapters are either copies or deviants, and I think that's plenty cool enough.

It's not like Marines need funny special rules to be good on the table, after all.

And for the record, I think Blue and Gold (Blue and White for Terminators and Blue and Steel for my up-coming Ultramarines 8th Company Bike List) is an awesome colour scheme. I love it. Also, I use the Reaper Ultramarine blue, and I think it looks great.
 
#17 ·
Their Legion was only the most powerful post-Heresy because it didn't fight, nor did half of their Companies turn traitor, nor was their Primarch snatched by Dark Eldar/Ran off into the Warp. All the other Legions did something like. The Ultramarines were practically nonconformists. Bad-boys.

Seriously think the main aim of the new Codices is to pull everything back to the standard, which annoys me. You could easily make them balanced without pushing stupidly restrictive rules and nonsensical changes into the mix. I mean, Dark Angels have lost that whole we're-suspicious-loners image now that their rules completely fail to represent this.

Edit: Sorry, I realise that was off-topic and that was naughty of me. Back on-topic: People don't like Ultramarines because they carry connotations of newbieness, since they've been used as the "new guy" Chapter to sell to those 10-year-olds who think the shoulderpads would look way more awesome if you put them on upside down. And then actual players, who went to the trouble of buying two Codices to play DA or BA, or God-forbid play Eldar, have to contend with this whiny little kid who can't paint blue for crap yelling "But I want them to assault eight inches through cover! Waaaah!"

So, it's not that Ultramarines are bad, it's that GW's marketing policy has made their players bad. The Battle for Macragge set in particular - I've seen that box set being pushed on stressed-out mums whose kids just want to play with toys, and are now being convinced to buy $100 of Tyranids they'll never assemble. Some kid saying "I wanna collect Tau" and the GW employee's like "Nah, Tau are for more experienced players. Collect Ultramarines first, then spend the same amount of money over again on Tau."
 
#18 ·
I think your analysis of Ultramarine strength is off. After all, they weren't just the most powerful post heresey, they were the most powerful pre heresy, too, really.

There just wasn't a whole lot of time during which the Ultramarine legion wasn't the largest and best organized, spanning the most territory, and, frankly, doing the most stuff. Contrary to the notion that they were large and powerful due to inactivity, basically the entirety of relevant fluff states that they were large and powerful due to exceptional organization and effective recruiting.

Crusades aren't everything--the Ultramarines had always provided the Empire with military power in a far greater volume of space than any other Legion could manage, and this can really be seen as nothing short of a testament to Guillimans leadership and organizational brilliance.


Your analysis of why people don't like Ultramarines, though, seems pretty acute.
 
#19 ·
I think your analysis of Ultramarine strength is off. After all, they weren't just the most powerful post heresey, they were the most powerful pre heresy, too, really.
How did you come to that conclusion? Ultra marines where the most organized chapter perhaps, but where not a very powerful chapter in the arts of actual war. The ultra marines draw strength form well organized supply lines.

However, the ultra marines did participate in quite a bit of the heresy, to say they didn't is misleading. They certainly are certainly in the top 5 most powerful chapters today.

Peace.
 
#23 ·
I'd agree that they were never one of the 'our guys are way badder-ass than everyone else' or 'our tactics are super-sneaky and awesome' Legions, but they were always the largest, and that is what I meant by most powerful. Ultramarines are hardly pushovers, and being able to outnumber someone significantly with quality units, even if they're maybe not quite as quality as your opponent's has historically been about the best indication of power.

Honestly, I couldn't dig up a source for this information for you, but I had thought it was just a given that, at the very least, the Ultramarines had more guys than any other pre-heresy legion--and by a considerable margin. Am I wrong?
 
#21 ·
A good example i think of the Ultramarines strength is that, during the heresy Hours was afraid of Guilliman and his boys in blue, rember he sent them to the boondocks of the galaxy. hell hours even would ask Guilliman for advice pre heresy. and just becuase they arent half insane, emo, or ferral, dosent mean that they cant kick some xeno butt. b/c in the end, its about putting rounds downrange, not looking BA(not bloodangels) while your doing it.

thats my $.o2
 
#22 ·
Look through your space marine codicies and tell me how many of those marines have non-blue armour.

We have a page devoted to the Imperial Fists, a page devoted to the Raven Guard and a page devoted to the other chapters. Then we have page after page after page of blue showcases. What colour is a Space Marine? blue.

Ultramarines annoy the heck out of me because of their colour, GW's love of them and their crappy fluff.

Can anyone tell me where the eye of terror is? north-northwest. Can anyone tell me where the horus heresy was going on? everywhere from terra to the eye of terror. Now can anyone tell me why the heck the ultramarines were fighting in the far south? the chaos marine fought fiercly to bypass terra to reach maccrage?

"ummm yeah we thought we saw some tyranids down there but it turns out they haven't entered our galaxy yet. Sorry 'bout the emperor dying and all, Dorn."-Roboute Gulliman in the 'Annals of the Imperium'.

Oh and because someone here on LO with female space marines wrote their fluff as though Guilliman was a chauvinist pig who deleted female marines from history. :D That influenced my opinion of him too.


And at the end of the day they have the 24" scared of the dark librarian power >.<
 
#25 ·
You're missing my points, Jaffar.

I already play Ultramarines, and I like them. They're nothing like Orks, and I certainly am not looking to switch to a horde army.

My point was that the Ultramarines had the biggest legion by a lot, and that basically made them the most powerful legion. Not because they did swarm the battlefield with massive numbers, but that, in some theoretical matchup against some other Legion, they could, and it would basically be the end for the other Legion.

I want elite guys, and Ultramarines, like any other marines, certainly are that. I just think that they have plenty of cool fluff, a cool and admirable Primarch, and the fact that they have always been considered to have been the largest and best organized (and thus, most powerful) Legion certainly supports me in both of those points.

In point of fact, Ultramarines tended not to use their numbers to swarm individual battlefields with guys, but rather to cover more space--during the Heresy, IIRC, Guilliman sent countless guys all over the place to make sure that there would be military power and symbols of Imperial might in as many parts of the Empire, no matter how remote, as possible. It was his effort to prevent the Heresy from bringing the Empire down in a storm of chaos and doubt--and, by all accounts, he was pretty successful. It isn't too much of a stretch to presume that without Guilliman, the Empire would be a mere fraction of the size that it currently is, having lost billions of outlying worlds to the internal turmoil that the
Heresy generated.

As for the last bit, you could say that, but you would basically be wrong. It doesn't end up being very much like a Tyranid organizational scheme.

On the other hand, though, the Tyranids are probably the only army in existence which is better coordinated than the Ultramarines.
 
#28 ·
looking through horus heresy and certain online wikipedia sites, you are right about ultramarines being strongest post-heresy....because they didn't suffer as many casualties as the less fortunate loyalist legions. (not being there at Istvaan or the Imperial Palace)
So with their larger numbers of companies still active and mostly full strength they led the way for the Imperium to recover after the Emperor was interred in his bloody life-support machine.


My opinion on ultramarines. They're kewl if someone really put thought into making Ultramarines come to life on the tabletop. A friend of mine plays the entire 4th company of Ultramarines, with squad markings and matching crusade awards and such.

but i see them in the hands of little children to much so they get a bad rep. But I believe blood angels is worse in this regard actually. Too many BA players in my area, and only one of them painted nicely/had some thought put into his armylist and strategy.
 
#27 ·
If you really want to play good guys, there is no better army. Ultra marines are the marines who stop think about the civilian population, ultra marines also built up successful home worlds in highest people enjoy the highest standard of living out side of the halo stars.

Ultra marines are cool, but so are other marine chapters.
 
#29 ·
Yes the orks and nids things was weird. Just trying to get a reaction, sorry.

I guess I don't enjoy being part of the Ultramarine crowd. From a 1000 chapters of good guys, the Ultramarines stand tall and proud. I'd rather play DA with some dirt in their history instead of the squeaky clean smurfs.
 
#30 ·
"I'd rather play DA with some dirt in their history instead of the squeaky clean smurfs."

Certainly fair. I actually like the DA a lot, too. I just don't like the black/white/green colour scheme as much. And, honestly, I don't care so much for their new codex.
 
#33 ·
No-one likes the new DA codex, except for people who've never played Space Marines before, or played Ravenwing. The new codex does improve Ravenwing to a significant extent.

You're spot on about the Ultramarines and numbers; estimates put them at over 100,000 Marines, which is why they were split into so many successor Chapters at the end of it. The average Legion size was in the tens of thousands (Emperor's Children were the smallest at about 10,000) and having a couple of hundred thousand meant pretty hefty responsiblity.

Gulliman's disciplined planning and rigid command structure meant there was often complete tactical co-ordination in battles, but Gulliman was also a master politician (the only real demagogue other than Lorgar, and of coruse Horus himself) to the point where, during an argument with Horus, Gulliman claimed Horus was leading the forefront of the Crusade and slaughtering the kings and petty lords of individual worlds in order to gain glory and recognition whilst leaving Gulliman to effectively police the conquered worlds, with the troublesome job of ensuring civil obedience immediately after the world was absorbed. The problem was that Gulliman liked people and didn't want to kill them wholesale, and his Marines (designed for war) had a problem with keeping the peace.

Horus masterfully responded; "But Roboute, you're the only one I trust enough to have that kind of responsibility."

So Gulliman was extraordinarily competent, if a little naive, and once Horus realised Gulliman's loyalty was unmarred, he had him sent to the southern edge (where Macragge now is) under the pretense of putting down a rebellion Horus instigated deliberately, so that when the Heresy arrived, Gulliman was years away, unable to be contacted until it was over. Since his Legion hadn't fought and had suffered effectively no casualties, Gulliman was actually in a prime position to take over leadership of the Imperium, and it's to his credit that he didn't, instead passing power to the High Lords as the Emperor presumably intended.

So Gulliman's cool but dull, the new Ultramarines fluff is certainly pleasing; it's just the abominable focus GW's marketing has put on the blue-and-whites and the nature of the vast majority of Ultramarines players, as well as the lasting 3rd edition belief that Ultramarines are boring because they have no unique traits other than not being unique.
 
#31 ·
im sorry but i jsut thinkg that the DA are a bunch of babies who need to get over themselves, so they lost some boys to chaos, BIG FREAKING DEAL. (im sorry to all of you DA lovers but i jsut cant stand them ) again im sorry
 
#32 ·
I can see where you come from, but they are in no way babies. Maybe look emo. But definitly not babies. If you actually READ the fluff, it makes more sense. And don't argue with those who know what they are talking about unless you have read the fluff as well. (Just because argueing with someone is pointless if they know nothing on the topic, not to be mean). But, DA are definitly different in many ways, which makes them very unique, which is why they are loved by millions of players world wide. Overall they are a great chapter, with a little interest in them as well.
 
#34 ·
Ultramarines are tyranid hunters; that's their special trait.

The reason I hate ultramarines is all the librarians are blue. Why? For no good reason at all.

Not to mention that storm bolter and powerfist is standard on terminators.

Finally, the Land Raider Crusader box set, an invention of the Black Templars, has an Ultramarine tank on the cover.
 
#36 ·
The reason I hate ultramarines is all the librarians are blue. Why? For no good reason at all.
All all librarians are blue. It's like how all Chaplains are black and all Apothecaries are white.

Finally, the Land Raider Crusader box set, an invention of the Black Templars, has an Ultramarine tank on the cover.
He's actually got a point there, though. That is annoying.

Pure lies, ravenwing players dislike the codex. IE me - since i make up 100% of the active space marine posters who play raven wing. And 1/3 of the total ravenwing players on the sight, that at least enhanced members.
I was under the impression it increased their viability as an army? Like...Ravenwing biker squads are generally better, albeit without Skilled Riders.

You know...let's not turn this into another new-Dark-Angels-codex bashfest. Let's make it an Ultramarines bashfest!

:/
 
#35 ·
The new codex does improve Ravenwing to a significant extent.
Pure lies, ravenwing players dislike the codex. IE me - since i make up 100% of the active space marine posters who play raven wing. And 1/3 of the total ravenwing players on the sight, that at least enhanced members.
 
#41 ·
Personally, the reason why Ultramarines aren't my 1st choice SM Chapter (if I were to collect a SM Chapter that is) is because of the blatant preferential treatment they receive from GW. The main reason they are SM poster children is because GW rams it down our collective throats. I have nothing against Ultramarines (I do like their fluff and can hold their own in any battle) but I just wish GW would put forth the same effort promoting other Chapters (***cough***White Scars***cough***) that they do for smurfs.
 
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