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Chaos Knights

2K views 21 replies 9 participants last post by  buckero0 
#1 ·
In what situation or cirumstance would you not max out your Special slots on Knights?

These guys are insanely hard. I've been thinking about it and I think, point for point, they're far and away our best unit.

Can there ever be any reason not to start your army list with four units of at least five Knights?

I'm thinking about running four units of seven Knights in my list - against any 25mm-based units, they'll all get their hits in. That's gotta hurt....

Any thoughts?
 
#2 ·
well i've got a units of knights right here ( actually i was just buisy painting them) but i'm heaving serieus trouble to make them work together with the rest of my army. I love an WoC infantry and most my army is on foot so there's a reason not to max out on knights.

but this isn't even really the point, it all depends on playstyle, some people might not even like to play with knights and prefer other tactics instead. I honestly don't see the fun in playing with an army full of knights and i don't agree that they're so incredibly strong for their costs ( give me 200-300 points of warriors with some nice gear, lot more reliable in my oppinion)

sure it's a really good allstar having both high strength and magical weapons, combines with speed and high defence, but against a solid block of infantry with banner and ranks they tend to not dish out enough and flee ( that's what happend to me anyway)

so it's all up to playstyle, a calv list would like too use as many of those baby's as possible, but anything else would not.

just think about a lvl 4 wizard with lore of metal against a knights army 0_0...ouch time

my 2ct: vid.
 
#3 ·
Ok. So, three situations for not taking Knights, then, are:


  1. When you're running into large units of infantry.
  2. When the rest of your army is infantry and you don't want to leave your Knights stranded.
  3. If the enemy if getting the time and opportunity to fire magic at you.
Ok, fair enough. I would always run the Knights with flanking units of Marauder Horsemen to negate rank bonuses from units they hit and to get the +1 flanking bonus. I think I prefer a cavalry list, because I really like the speed with which you can zip across the battlefield. And I intend running enough Dispel Scrolls to get my Knights through a couple of turns of magic.

When you say you don't think it's fun, are you talking about personal preference, in that you just don't much fancy cavalry-lists, or are you talking in a cheesy sense, in that most people would say "well, ok, you win, but I'm not playing your list again"?
 
#4 ·
If you ever face HE or Empire with moderate to heavy magic, your army will probably be decimated by turn three. If you face an army with eagles, terradons, fast cav, etc., your army will be almost totally impotent because you won't have enough other models/units to make up for the ones being march/charge blocked.

You won't have any combat res in many situations outside of wounds caused and a banner. Rarely you may get the outnumber against small, elite units. Chariots and flank charges will eat them alive. When over 1000 points of your army is in four relatively small units, your enemy can ignore any of them that don't contain your Lord/BSB and focus fire. If you face an army that includes a dragon, he will fairly handily wipe the board with your knights, and unless you take MoS they will many times be prone to auto-flee.

All in all, I think four units of 7 knights is just asking for trouble. That's just a huge points sink. Even if you don't give any of those units a standard bearer (a mistake IMO) you would be looking at over 1100 points of naked knights. Even if your only hero choice is a single Lord, you've only got about 750 points left for marauders, hellcannons, warriors, horsemen, dogs, etc. to support those knights with. If you include a BSB, now you've only got enough points for (maybe) two units of Warriors or a chariot or two. Wood Elves will shoot you to death, Ogres will kill you too quickly, HE and Empire will magic you to death, Dwarves (and Empire again) will stand and shoot with black powder weapons, VC will bog you down and make the knights impotent, O&G and skaven will try to flank the hell out of you. Dark Elves will try to shoot you to death, which may or may not work, but if not they'll have a good shot at winning just on points denial. Bretonnians can do what your knights can do just as well, plus they'll have ranked units and bowmen to back them up. Just very risky, IMO.
 
#6 · (Edited)
If you ever face HE or Empire with moderate to heavy magic, your army will probably be decimated by turn three. If you face an army with eagles, terradons, fast cav, etc., your army will be almost totally impotent because you won't have enough other models/units to make up for the ones being march/charge blocked.
His army is character less so after taking 1000 points of knights (4 units of 5 mark of nurgle and standard) he will be left with another 1000 points to spend. I don't see how having 4 units of knights means your army will be decimated by turn 3 over magic. The list would include 2 sorcerers with 4 srcolls, decent magic protection in my opinion.

Plus, eagles and fliers will be a problem to any chaos army as we dont have decent fliers. To solve this problem you take 2 hellcannons and two chariots to protect your rear and 3 units of fast cavalry yourself.


You won't have any combat res in many situations outside of wounds caused and a banner. Rarely you may get the outnumber against small, elite units. Chariots and flank charges will eat them alive. When over 1000 points of your army is in four relatively small units, your enemy can ignore any of them that don't contain your Lord/BSB and focus fire. If you face an army that includes a dragon, he will fairly handily wipe the board with your knights, and unless you take MoS they will many times be prone to auto-flee.
1. Wounds caused by knights are enough to break most of the units in warhammer.
2. You can always multiple charge with 2 units of knights, a unit of knights and a chariot or a unit of knights and a flanking unit of horsemen. This solves the problem of outnumbering and static combat res.
3. A chariot's charge hurts any unit, and to get a flank charge on a unit of knights means bad generalship by the (knights) controlling player.
4. If he focuses fire on 1 unit he will see other 3 units on him the turn after. Not may shooting units will survive a knights charge.
4. Dragons are the major problems WoC face. Many armies who do not have shooting will have a hard time against dragons.

Wood Elves will shoot you to death - they shoot anything to death and i think that knights are the best choice against woodelves as their armor is the toughest thing our list has against their shooting, give them MoN, they are tougher. Plus they are fast and have the greatest chance of charging, greater than a unit of warriors for sure.

Ogres will kill you too quickly - i really cant see a unit of ogres ever getting to charge a knights army. I never saw an army of ogres ever winning anything anyway.

HE and Empire will magic you to death - there are scroll caddies for the first 2 turns, By turn 3 the casters will be dead.

Dwarves (and Empire again) will stand and shoot with black powder weapons - this is the biggest problem we face but that is a problem to an chaos army not just for knights.,

VC will bog you down and make the knights impotent - thats what they do to any army,

O&G and skaven will try to flank the hell out of you - if they flank they still don't have the power to hurt a unit of knights.

Dark Elves will try to shoot you to death, which may or may not work, but if not they'll have a good shot at winning just on points denial - i play DE every week and i use 2 units of knights, never have i lost a single unit to their shooting.

Bretonnians can do what your knights can do just as well, plus they'll have ranked units and bowmen to back them up - This will be a tough challenge since they charge faster, but the army will have other units to back it up. I think an army as El don plans it would include 2 chariots, 3 units of fast cav and at least 1 hellcannon.
I really believe in knights as they have saved many games for me. I wouldnt take 4 units but 3 units of 5 with MoN and a standard and make a single unit frenzied, this will cost approx 790points which will leave lots of slots for other stuff. I think that they are the ultimate combat unit and they will hurt any army which hasn't got a decent gunline.

The only reason i would see to not take 4 units of knights is only because of variety and gameplay but that is not an issue if your ultimate goal is winning.

Edit: Tonight i will give you feedback on playing 3 units of knights as i am facing a dwarf army later on today.
 
#5 ·
If i were a Chaos user and were going up against an Army that I knew I had a lot of Chaos Knights and was prepared for them (ie, as many Great Cannons/RBT as allowed by law, etc), then sure I would consider changing up if only to throw off their plans.


I saw one guy that normally used a good sized unit of Chaos Knights, and knew he was going up against an Empire GunLine army that was maxed out in allowable cannon's to be used.

To counter it, he used Chaos Troll's instead. Same T as I recall, but REGENERATION largely offset their warmachines.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Cant we just work on making balanced lists?

I think the logic behind this thread is silly. Knights are toough and killy and good for their points. Lets max out on them? Thats similar to saying pizza is your favorite food and your gonna eat it 3 times a day 7 days a week.

Yes knigts are rock hard but they arent good enough to put on the board and just start rolling faces. They are good in moderation and when used tactically. Our knights beat out most of the other armies knights, but they need support. Marauder horsemen and dogs fit this roll perfectly. This game for the most part needs tactics, not brute force. Sure some lists dont need tactics (Demons, Star Dragons, Steg heavy lists) and can rely on brute force, but I dont think our knights are really good enough for that.

I prefer to keep this game like a chess game. Too many knights is just going to clog up your options too much. If you pay to support them you wont have an actual army core. If you get a solid core, then you will have lots of unsupported knights.

If you really want a mindless list though just go all out. 4 MoK knight units, a Juggy hero, 2 golf carts, 2 shaggoths and hounds + cruise missiles. I dont see this being any fun at all but some people just amaze me with their oppinions of fun.
 
#8 ·
Meh. I think the Knights are gorgeous. I love the models. I also think they epitomise Chaos; heck, if they're good enough for Archaon, they're good enough for me!

I do understand what you mean about the point-and-click army issues. Sure, I get that. And I will definitely take it into consideration. I agree that a game would be more fun with a more varied approach of units - I was just thinking that, in terms of killing, nothing in our army does it like Knights.

But I don't buy that you can't take four large units of Knights without reasonable support, or an army core. Take a couple of caddies for some magic protection and you still have about 900 points to play with; that's just as many points as many people who run magic-heavy lists have to design their entire army; and we've already got 28 Knights on the table, plus our Character choices.

And, so far as 'balanced lists', go, I'm not sure that we do that, particularly. There are plenty 'magic-heavy' lists, or 'close-combat heavy' lists kicking about. I think that, when you choose an elite army in Warhammer, you tie yourself into a particular play-style. If you look at Wood Elves lists, you'll probably find they're very runny, very shooty and very hidey. That's not exactly balanced. A Skaven army list is likely to be very hoardy; a Brettonian army list is going to be very chargey. Most armies excel at one thing over and above everything else - in the case of Chaos, we do close combat better than (just about?) anyone. I don't see why we shouldn't just run with it.
 
#9 ·
I played this list today against dwarves. This is a list done before we decided to put caddy carts. I am posting the list to check if it satysfies what Sdefreit cals variety and support units. Please do not ignore it i am really not trying to thread jack but i think it would be a good add on to the whole argument. it is better to decide whether to take 4 units of knights or not if you are looking at an entire list.

Total: 2200pts


Sorcerer of Chaos – 135 pts
·Lv1
·BoS
·DS

Sorcerer of Chaos – 135 pts
·Lv1
·DS
·DS

5x Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh – 95 pts
·MoS
·Flail
·T Axes

5x Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh – 95 pts
·MoS
·Flail
·T Axes

5x Marauder horsemen of Khorne – 110 pts
·MoK
·Flail
·Light Armor

5x Marauder horsemen of Khorne – 110 pts
·MoK
·Flail
·Light Armor

5x Chaos Warhounds – 30pts

5x Chaos Warhounds – 30pts

Chaos knights of Nurgle – 285 pts
·Standard Bearer
·MoN
·Banner of Rage

Chaos knights of Nurgle – 250 pts
·Standard Bearer
·MoN

Chaos knights of Nurgle – 250 pts
·Standard Bearer
·MoN

Dragon Ogres – 231 pts
·GW

Hellcannon – 205 pts

[FONT=&quot]Hellcannon - 205 pts

My opponent remained couldn't believe his eyes when he saw me pulling out all the models. The list presented to many targets for him to focus fire (he wasn't playing a true gunline but had a balanced list) and i managed to enter combat on turn 2. I got a solid victory, but i am still not happy with the list as i didn't spend enough time pondering it. I created it when i first read EL don's idea and decided to try it out. Now i know that the scroll caddies are useless against dwarves but i just do not like changing army lists. I tried a generic one.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Needless to say i didn't manage to get a single spell off but my sorcerers did not die as they stayed in a forest all through the game
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
The army is fast and hits hard, but it lacks something and i am not quite sure what. I think it is static combat resolution, but i rarely have that in my lists. It is varied and there is support fot the knights. Hellcannons as always didn't die. They are great at point denial and holding the rear of the army. Speed is at it max with 4 units of fast cav and the army is highly manoverable.
Hitting power is hard and i confirm that 3 units of knights are great. I took a Unit of DO just for variety, but i am not at all happy with their performance. i think i'd prefer to include chariots for the sorcs and a 3rd unit of hounds.

There it is, please i would really like to hear ur opinions.
.
[/FONT]
 
#11 ·
Sorcerer of Chaos – 135 pts
·Lv1
·BoS i don't think this would ever be handy. You either suck it up and take 4 scrolls for magic defense only or go magic heavy with 3-4 casters and bound spells. BoS doesn't really belong in this list imo.
·DS

Sorcerer of Chaos – 135 pts
·Lv1
·DS
·DS

5x Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh – 95 pts
·MoS
·Flail
·T Axes

5x Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh – 95 pts
·MoSMusicians would really be helpful for these guys.
·Flail
·T Axes

5x Marauder horsemen of Khorne – 110 pts
·MoK
·Flail
·Light Armor

5x Marauder horsemen of Khorne – 110 pts
·MoK
·Flail
·Light Armor

5x Chaos Warhounds – 30pts

5x Chaos Warhounds – 30pts

Chaos knights of Nurgle – 285 pts
·Standard Bearer
·MoN
·Banner of Rage

Chaos knights of Nurgle – 250 pts
·Standard Bearer
·MoN

Chaos knights of Nurgle – 250 pts
·Standard Bearer
·MoN I think the Raptuorous standard is the best banner we have. Warbann would also be decent on one of these.

Dragon Ogres – 231 pts
·GW

Hellcannon – 205 pts

[FONT=&quot]Hellcannon - 205 pts

[/FONT]
Just thought I would answer this seperately since this is more of an army list critique. I still think you'd have trouble against horde armies, or an army with decent shooting and baiters (like DE) Also you haven't really got an answer for flying terror causers or skirmishers in trees. I'd keep playing the list because I don't really think any decent playtesting comes against going vs. dwarves. Dwarves do one thing, they sit there and shoot. A real dwarven gun line would've given you fits anyway. You wouldn't be able to charge til turn 2 and if he got the first turn, you'd lose half your army that first 2 turns. You can't really compare how DO vs Knights either vs. Dwarves because Dwarves have decent ldship and armor and WS. you have your DO kitted for armor busting. Imagine if you played someone playing your exact list, you'd be scared of those dragon ogres because they'd eat your knights alive.
 
#10 ·
I can't see myself using more than 2 units of knights in a 2250 pt game ever.

I missed this post or it's been answered many times before I got to see it, but like I said, I'd disagree.

I like to take my knights in units of 6. (I fail 2+ armor saves all the time + they will have a hard time taking out units)

I don't think I would ever just charge my knights into a ranked unit unless I had nothing left to do inthe game. I play HE and need 3's and 2's all the time to hit and to wound. No matter how many attacks I have, I have yet to ever hit with more than 50% of my hits (sword master included) I just roll terrible and would never expect to be able to break anything with just a unit of knights. Personally, I think Dragon Ogres are more resilient. I think the fact that you have 4 wounds each outsets the 1+ armor save for me easily. The benefit of knights is that you can take the raptuous standard. DO can even get str7 or extra attacks for not much more.

I also think all cav would get boring to many. I have a brettonian list with 2 trebs, 2 fast cav peasants, 2 units of bowment, 1 pegknights, 2 scroll caddies and as many 5 man units of knights as I can fit and I've only played it once. It's just not that fun.

As far as the models go, I hate them. I've done as much as I can to alter them, but still don't find them attractive and don't really have a desire to paint them.
 
#14 ·
That's fair. As I said in another post, everyone who plays the game plays their own way.

It's a shame you don't like the Knights, though. I think you should be able to put any model from your army on the table and say "ooooh, that's pretty!"

:D
----------
Just thought I would answer this seperately since this is more of an army list critique. I still think you'd have trouble against horde armies, or an army with decent shooting and baiters (like DE) Also you haven't really got an answer for flying terror causers or skirmishers in trees. I'd keep playing the list because I don't really think any decent playtesting comes against going vs. dwarves. Dwarves do one thing, they sit there and shoot. A real dwarven gun line would've given you fits anyway. You wouldn't be able to charge til turn 2 and if he got the first turn, you'd lose half your army that first 2 turns. You can't really compare how DO vs Knights either vs. Dwarves because Dwarves have decent ldship and armor and WS. you have your DO kitted for armor busting. Imagine if you played someone playing your exact list, you'd be scared of those dragon ogres because they'd eat your knights alive.
Saying that Dwarves would moosh him if they took a full gunline doesn't make sense to me; the army he's put on the table has masses more troops and units than it would if he'd spent 1,200 points on Characters... that just gives the gunline more targets to worry about, no?
----------
Well draag Im not trying to be a dick, I just think the game is better both ways when the armies have variety and not just a unit spam. Games lose depth when players go crazy with one unit. Lizzys spam stegs or skinks, nobody likes elves taking 4 RBTs, horror spam and ect. There is a WE player at our store that played a list with a crazy amount of there good cav and people got tired of it. He has changed it up because of that.

I think your list is interesting and can work. I would deffinitelly switch the BoS for another scroll. Your list is very liquid like. No real core just a number of individual units it seems. This can be good or bad. Your enemies are going to have to deal with you because you are fast and you have hard hitters with supportive fast cav. Plus the hellcannons protect flanks and shoot. Be sure not to do a lot of shooting when your knights get on the other side. Im sure you already know that.

It is going to take either a very strong range army, or an extremly good player with good manuvering to beat you. Since you only have 4 really hurtful units make sure they dont get off course and chase things not worth it. Your big targets need to be hitting big targets.

Also you dont have a combat character. This isnt really a bad thing but Im just saying be careful. I have made the mistake of thinking my knights were too badass to die and they get pwned by an enemy combat character. They need to be really good chars but nonetheless watch out.

Against lists with flyers Id recommend keeping a marauder unit with LoS to your rear because flyers will make even this list slow, and your lack of missiles can let a pair of eagles sit back there rather safely. You could charge them with cannons but a turn of march blocking, stopping a cannon from shooting and possibly puting it out of position is a job well done for a 50 point eagle.


And Im not trying to tear your list apart or anything, Im just trying to find holes in the list so you can watch out. Hope
its helpful.

Here is another thought, not sure if its good or not though. Getting turn one is massive for you. Maybe drop the hounds for those banners. It will beef your knight units a bit and less units will give you a better shot at getting turn one. Im not sure if this is a good way to go since you will lose some shields but its just something ill throw out.
Good post; lots of valid points well made. I think the most important thing about this list, for me, is that it might get a little boring; both for me and for the people I play against. Mixing it up is never a bad thing.

I'm not necessarily saying our lists should be all-Knights. I'm just saying that I'm not convinced Characters are our best points spend. I think we're better focusing points on units than on Characters.
 
#12 ·
Thx for replying.

You are right about dwarves, it was quite a boring game.

I really wouldn't know what to take in order to deal with skirmishers in trees or fliers since i am trying a no hero list.

The BoS is a mistake it should be a DS.

I agree with the Banners But i tried to keep the knights cheap since they would surely be heavily targeted against every army.

You are right about D Ogres, I never looked at it that way.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Well draag Im not trying to be a dick, I just think the game is better both ways when the armies have variety and not just a unit spam. Games lose depth when players go crazy with one unit. Lizzys spam stegs or skinks, nobody likes elves taking 4 RBTs, horror spam and ect. There is a WE player at our store that played a list with a crazy amount of there good cav and people got tired of it. He has changed it up because of that.

I think your list is interesting and can work. I would deffinitelly switch the BoS for another scroll. Your list is very liquid like. No real core just a number of individual units it seems. This can be good or bad. Your enemies are going to have to deal with you because you are fast and you have hard hitters with supportive fast cav. Plus the hellcannons protect flanks and shoot. Be sure not to do a lot of shooting when your knights get on the other side. Im sure you already know that.

It is going to take either a very strong range army, or an extremly good player with good manuvering to beat you. Since you only have 4 really hurtful units make sure they dont get off course and chase things not worth it. Your big targets need to be hitting big targets.

Also you dont have a combat character. This isnt really a bad thing but Im just saying be careful. I have made the mistake of thinking my knights were too badass to die and they get pwned by an enemy combat character. They need to be really good chars but nonetheless watch out.

Against lists with flyers Id recommend keeping a marauder unit with LoS to your rear because flyers will make even this list slow, and your lack of missiles can let a pair of eagles sit back there rather safely. You could charge them with cannons but a turn of march blocking, stopping a cannon from shooting and possibly puting it out of position is a job well done for a 50 point eagle.


And Im not trying to tear your list apart or anything, Im just trying to find holes in the list so you can watch out. Hope
its helpful.

Here is another thought, not sure if its good or not though. Getting turn one is massive for you. Maybe drop the hounds for those banners. It will beef your knight units a bit and less units will give you a better shot at getting turn one. Im not sure if this is a good way to go since you will lose some shields but its just something ill throw out.
 
#15 ·
All you said is very true Sdefreit. I know you aren't trying to tear my list and you know that i always appreciate your suggestions.

I wanted to try out the list t be able to contribute to the discussions brought up by El don, since i was very skeptic about not taking combat heroes. After trying out this list i have to say that his idea can work if we manage to find the right list. Mine is good but it definitely needs fine tuning.

The best thing about it is its originality which surprises opponents who have to create a whole new strategy different from the one they knew before in order to deal with it.

I dont think that i am spamming knights though. 3 units in a cavalry army is reasonable. If i want an all cav there aren't muc choices in the book. I am not fond of foot troops and I am not planning a monstrous horde atm.

I wont take out the hounds because they help me in the deployment phase, and many times i throw them in a piece of terrain to get quarters.

Thanks for you reply sdef, i appreciate it.
 
#16 ·
Hmm Im looking at this list again and Im having a thought. You have two hellcannons. What is their role? They get a round maybe two of shooting but then they will be mainly chillin since your army will be on that side of the board too. They are also good rear protectors. They are both good roles, but do you really need two? Sure two volleys a turn is nice but is it worth the extra 200 points? Do you think you need two of them to cover your flank. A marauder unit can assist the one and you could be very fine. If you disagree thats fine but I think one can fill the role your asking from them just fine.

Now what can you do with 200 points? Your special slots are full but you will have an extra rare slot. Why not throw in a giant or a shaggoth. That will add another big threat for your enemy to deal with. Plus they are big models. I saw a shaggoth the other day for the first time on a table and they are quite big and nice looking really. They will draw a lot of fire, and keep your knights safer. Plus adding another hard hitter on your side will make your battle line longer across and make it tougher to get to your rear.

Other options could also be an exalted on a disk, or an exalted on a chariot. I have personally found disk exalteds to be quite good. If you go that route you will have a guy to protect your flank if you need it, break chariots which is nice, and pick on those smaller units that you dont want your big hammers wasting time on.
 
#17 ·
I play two because it has become a strict rule in my lists to have 2 cannons and because of their point cost. i dont like giants as they die too easily much more than a cannon does. plus cannons are good against every army as they can take various roles.

I never tried a shaggot, so i can't really comment on it. A friend of mine at the store suggested that a list like mine would be better ff with 2 shaggots as they can advance with the army giving me major hitting power on his side of the table. I should probably try a ist like that, but i am reall put off by the point cost of 2 shaggots.
 
#18 ·
Terminators

At 40 points a pop before you even start looking at all of the gribbly options I am always tempted to be quite reserved with my use of Chaso Knights. There are a number of reasons for this. One is that they are anticipated. People expect you to field units of chaos knights, usually in units of five. This means that your canny foes will have thought a bit about what to do with units of this type.

Now, were you to drop a unit of 15 knights onto the table, that would get a look or two. It's a bunch of points to be sure but wow it makes a mess of people's armies and perhaps more importantly, their plans. No one I have ever played has been able to keep their cool and ignore a unit of that size. It attracts nearly all of your opponent's firepower which is worth the points if it means that your other units arrive unmolested. It also means that you can take unit upgrades and spread the cost through a larger unit. It is easier to justify a decent banner and character too.

Another great thing about this unit is that when your opponent's first two turns of straight flat out magical and conventional shooting has killed ten of your precious knights you still slam home into his favourite unit at about 90% effectiveness. You still have your standard, musician, champion and character. You still have those fearsome attacks and you will still make a mess of his favorite unit.

But your opponent has divested himself of effectively all his magical and conventional firepower. For what? That big unit is a bit smaller... So what?

I have done this iwth my dwraves for years. I have a huge unit of hammerers. Everyone thinks it is dumb, but that MR 3 block of stunties soaks up everything that can be levelled at it and then still arrives at the lines in time to punish my foes. I start out at 48 and usually shrink to less than ten by the end of the game, but man do I make my opponent's pay.

A crucial part of playing this way is to put the unit in the centre of your army and arrange everything else around it. Make it look as though everything depends on your monster unit and then make sure it takes as much punishment as possible!
 
#19 ·
At 40 points a pop before you even start looking at all of the gribbly options I am always tempted to be quite reserved with my use of Chaso Knights. There are a number of reasons for this. One is that they are anticipated. People expect you to field units of chaos knights, usually in units of five. This means that your canny foes will have thought a bit about what to do with units of this type.

Now, were you to drop a unit of 15 knights onto the table, that would get a look or two. It's a bunch of points to be sure but wow it makes a mess of people's armies and perhaps more importantly, their plans. No one I have ever played has been able to keep their cool and ignore a unit of that size. It attracts nearly all of your opponent's firepower which is worth the points if it means that your other units arrive unmolested. It also means that you can take unit upgrades and spread the cost through a larger unit. It is easier to justify a decent banner and character too.

Another great thing about this unit is that when your opponent's first two turns of straight flat out magical and conventional shooting has killed ten of your precious knights you still slam home into his favourite unit at about 90% effectiveness. You still have your standard, musician, champion and character. You still have those fearsome attacks and you will still make a mess of his favorite unit.

But your opponent has divested himself of effectively all his magical and conventional firepower. For what? That big unit is a bit smaller... So what?

I have done this iwth my dwraves for years. I have a huge unit of hammerers. Everyone thinks it is dumb, but that MR 3 block of stunties soaks up everything that can be levelled at it and then still arrives at the lines in time to punish my foes. I start out at 48 and usually shrink to less than ten by the end of the game, but man do I make my opponent's pay.

A crucial part of playing this way is to put the unit in the centre of your army and arrange everything else around it. Make it look as though everything depends on your monster unit and then make sure it takes as much punishment as possible!
That seems like a good idea, but do you not severely limit your maneuverability? You also limit the number of targets you can hit at any time. I agree that Knights are expected - but generally ten of them, split in two. Most people don't expect to see 20, 24 or 28 Knights being put on the table across from them!

I think a list like this is ideal for Shaggoths, to be honest. It's one more thing that distracts your opponent and confuses him when he's trying to pick a target, they provide close protection and support for all your combat units and, because they draw fire from turn one but can also hit the enemy by turn two or three, they're useful throughout the entire game. And, as monsters, they have 360º line of sight, etc., so can even be used to hold back and watch the back lines, if you feel it's necessary.

@Draag, if you can't fit Shaggoths into your list when you've got no character costs, when can you fit them in?!

:D
 
#20 ·
So basicly you always play death star lists... if I played against an army with a unit of 15 chaos knights with a chracter in it, and I was using any army with disposable skirmishers and flyers that unit would be doing nothing for about 4 turns. In 4 turns time, I could wipe the rest of your army out then focus all my attention on your one unit in the last 2 turns. Lets say I was running a high elf list. How easy would your unit of knights be to kill if I hadthe 6th spell in the lore of metal? How easy would it be for me to make your unit useless with eagles? hell, even running a stardragon into the units rear would do nasty things to it. I don't understand how you can rely on a single unit to win you the game. Its like you played chess with a single massive king piece, while I had all the standard pieces.
 
#22 ·
Well - - full gunline is pretty nasty. 2 organ guns, cannon , 2 str 7 bolt throwers 3 units of xbows/handguns and an anvil still leaves room for 2 large block units both of which can take stones. I'm not saying it wouldn't get messy, but true gunline will deploy within 6" of the board edge which means his knights are most likely going to need 3 turns of movement to get to them. I know flails can do a lot, but fast cav is going to be gunning for artillary. They may not make it if there are decent trees or other "slowing" terrain features. He'd probably win over time, but once that stone goes down, the knights are going to have to kill alot of dwarves while being anviled and hit by the thane.
 
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