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Are Hunting Lances Preferable to a Pistol & CCW

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Xeno Roughriders

2K views 28 replies 15 participants last post by  Caluin 
#1 ·
OK, Well I am now making some Xeno Rough riders to add a very characterful unit to my IG. I have converted the mounts and riders, however I am now not sure of the best way to arm them.

Option 1 - Huntng Lances
If I go with this then I get (per man, charging)
2 S5, I5 Power Weapon Attacks
1 S4, I5 Attack
But ONLY for theirt first attack, after that they get
2 S3, I3 Attacks
1 S4, I3 Attack

Option 2 - Pistol + CCW
This option gives me (per man, charging)
3 S3, I3 Attacks
1 S4, I3 Attck

Now, I am leaning towards the hunting lances as although they only get their bonus on the first charge, on subsequent rounds the only drawback to the other combo is that they are -1 attack.
 
#2 ·
Originally posted by Knape97@Dec 24 2004, 09:44
OK, Well I am now making some Xeno Rough riders to add a very characterful unit to my IG. I have converted the mounts and riders, however I am now not sure of the best way to arm them.

Option 1 - Huntng Lances
If I go with this then I get (per man, charging)
2 S5, I5 Power Weapon Attacks
1 S4, I5 Attack
But ONLY for theirt first attack, after that they get
2 S3, I3 Attacks
1 S4, I3 Attack

Option 2 - Pistol + CCW
This option gives me (per man, charging)
3 S3, I3 Attacks
1 S4, I3 Attck

Now, I am leaning towards the hunting lances as although they only get their bonus on the first charge, on subsequent rounds the only drawback to the other combo is that they are -1 attack.
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I'd say Hunting Lances, as most units will fall under the first charge. Even though they are one-use only, they will provide a VERY useful counter-assault unit and the charge should rip anyone apart.

Also, beside the Hunting Lance I'd upgrade one man to a Veteran Sergeant and give him a Power Weapon. Consider even giving him the Honorifica Imperialis, as this will make you have a VERY powerful Rough Rider unit.

Also, look into the Carapace Armour doctrine as it can be given to Rough Riders only, as was pointed out to me before. This will give you 3+ armour saves, and all of those attacks (power weapon, and higher strength/initiative on the charge). This should demolish anybody you charge into.



 
#3 ·
Well, giving the Vet sarg a Honorifica goes without saying I think, he's really the only unit worthy of it :hmm:
Carapace armour, well, I would except I dont have a Doctrine spair for it and my other doctines are more important.

The only trouble with tyaking hunting laces is how to model the riders left arm . All the IG Laspistol sprus give right arm laspistols, so its probably going to call for the tedious task of swapping hands, weapons and arms :D
 
#4 ·
Originally posted by Knape97@Dec 24 2004, 10:57
Well, giving the Vet sarg a Honorifica goes without saying I think, he's really the only unit worthy of it :hmm:
Carapace armour, well, I would except I dont have a Doctrine spair for it and my other doctines are more important.

The only trouble with tyaking hunting laces is how to model the riders left arm . All the IG Laspistol sprus give right arm laspistols, so its probably going to call for the tedious task of swapping hands, weapons and arms :D
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Well, instead of going through all of that trouble, why not simply put the pistol at their hips, and maybe some green stuff to create a holster?

I'd expect they'd charge, then throw their lances aside, pulling out their pistols to continue in the fight. ^_^



 
#6 ·
All my Rough Riders have hunting lances except for my sergeant who has a power weapon and bolt pistol. I also have one with a meltagun to really give that extra punch...

On a side note, I think it's damn stupid that Rough Riders can't have the Hardened Fighters doctrine...
 
#8 ·
Originally posted by NurgleWarlord@Dec 25 2004, 07:52
Go for hunting lances.They will be really helpful when charging into fragile armies.(Eldar,DE,other IG) Can you post some pics later? :)
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The lances will be VERY useful charging into ANY unit, and I'd say it would be better to save them for charging expensive, good armoured units, like Terminators or Grey Knights in Power Armour, etc.

A 5+ invulnerable save in the case of Termies or a no-save in the case of a normal Power Armoured troop, plus many quick attacks on the charge, will NOT save a small unit of guys from those Xeno Riders. Use the hunting lances to full effect - you only have a one-time use power weapon, so neglect the saves that will matter.

Think about it - a full 10 man Rough Rider squadron charging (with hunting lances) a 5-man Terminator squad. All the saves go to 5+ for the Termies, as it is invulnerable. 2/3 chance of failing each save, and you have MANY attacks. (Y)



 
#9 ·
Seeing as there has been an overwhelming response to taking Lances, this is the squad I have come up with...

Xeno Riders of Kashann
First Sergeant Putinov (Xeno Mount, Honorifica, Power Sword, Plasma Pistol)
Riders of Kashann [6] (Xeno-Mount, Hunting Lance, LasPistols)

That gives me (On First charge);
3 S3 I4 Power Weapon Attacks
12 S5 I5 Power Weapon Attacks
7 S4 I5 Normal Attacks

And on subsequent charges;
3 S3 I4 Power Weapon Attacks
12 S3 I3 Normal Attacks
7 S4 I3 Normal Attacks

Now, when charging into a 10 man SM Assault squad I can imagine them doing an awfull lot of damage. Pistols before the charge could get lucky and take down a few men, and seeing as xeno mounts loose FoF thjere is no drawback there. Then I get 12 power attacks striking at higest initiative, and then 3 more at equal initiative... now all I have to hope for is that I charge them before they charge me.
 
#10 ·
Originally posted by Knape97@Dec 27 2004, 15:38
Seeing as there has been an overwhelming response to taking Lances, this is the squad I have come up with...

Xeno Riders of Kashann
First Sergeant Putinov (Xeno Mount, Honorifica, Power Sword, Plasma Pistol)
Riders of Kashann [6] (Xeno-Mount, Hunting Lance, LasPistols)

That gives me (On First charge);
3 S3 I4 Power Weapon Attacks
12 S5 I5 Power Weapon Attacks
7 S4 I5 Normal Attacks

And on subsequent charges;
3 S3 I4 Power Weapon Attacks
12 S3 I3 Normal Attacks
7 S4 I3 Normal Attacks

Now, when charging into a 10 man SM Assault squad I can imagine them doing an awfull lot of damage. Pistols before the charge could get lucky and take down a few men, and seeing as xeno mounts loose FoF thjere is no drawback there. Then I get 12 power attacks striking at higest initiative, and then 3 more at equal initiative... now all I have to hope for is that I charge them before they charge me.
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Keep them back, and simply wait for them to get into range. Keep them behind a unit of cover and maybe even sacrifice one 10-man infantry squad to get your Riders into position. Use them as an effective counter-charge unit and they should do alright.

Honestly, the way I'd have them is as follows:

Vet. Sarge w/ Honorifica, Hunting Lance, Power Weapon
6x (or max even) normal riders w/ Hunting Lances, Laspistols
Carapace Armour

This gives you a unit of 3+ armour saves, with many many attacks. The Vet Sarge's loss of an attack from taking off the pistol is simply given back by the Honorifica, and then he gets a Hunting Lance like the rest of them, to have multiple (and very nice) hits. The Plasma Pistol, IMO, is too dangerous for even just a 4+ save - don't roll a one!

I know you don't have room for the Carapace Armour doctrine, but it's definitely something you should consider trying sometime. (Y) Good luck with your Xeno Riders!



 
#11 ·
Originally posted by Lost Nemesis@Dec 28 2004, 03:20
I know you don't have room for the Carapace Armour doctrine, but it's definitely something you should consider trying sometime. (Y) Good luck with your Xeno Riders!
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Well, the doctrines i currently have are...

Iron Discipline
Sharpshooters
Restricted Troops: Heavy Weapons Platoon
Restricted Troops: Rough Riders
Special Equipment: Xeno-Mounts

Iron discipline give me beter chances of units regrouping after heavy fire so I want to keep that. The sharpshooters will help me out with any really bad dice rolls.

I cant really see any of those being thrown out in favor of carapace :(
 
#12 ·
Originally posted by Knape97@Dec 28 2004, 04:24
Well, the doctrines i currently have are...

Iron Discipline
Sharpshooters
Restricted Troops: Heavy Weapons Platoon
Restricted Troops: Rough Riders
Special Equipment: Xeno-Mounts

Iron discipline give me beter chances of units regrouping after heavy fire so I want to keep that. The sharpshooters will help me out with any really bad dice rolls.

I cant really see any of those being thrown out in favor of carapace :(
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I never believed in the Sharpshooters doctrine, myself. Nor did I ever like Heavy Weapons Platoons - I just put them in with normal squads, so both of those are what I would be getting rid of. :hmm:

But if you're hooked on them both, then a bunch of 4+ armoured counter-assault guys aren't that bad, either. ^_^



 
#13 ·
Originally posted by Lost Nemesis+Dec 28 2004, 19:28--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lost Nemesis @ Dec 28 2004, 19:28)</div><div class='quotemain'>I never believed in the Sharpshooters doctrine, myself.[/b]
Is there any reason why not? I would of thought re-rolling 1's would be very good in a highly shooty army.
Originally posted by Lost Nemesis@Dec 28 2004, 19:28
Nor did I ever like Heavy Weapons Platoons - I just put them in with normal squads
I have heavys in normal squads and in their own platoons. The enemy can only take out so many, and the IG do depend on outnumbering the enemy. <!--QuoteBegin-Lost Nemesis
@Dec 28 2004, 19:28
But if you're hooked on them both, then a bunch of 4+ armoured counter-assault guys aren't that bad, either. ^_^[/quote]Well, if there is a huge, game-stopping reason for me not to take Sharpshooters then I would take Carapace but AFAIK I cant see any reason not to take sharpshooters.
 
#14 ·
Originally posted by Knape97@Dec 28 2004, 23:20
Is there any reason why not? I would of thought re-rolling 1's would be very good in a highly shooty army. I have heavys in normal squads and in their own platoons. The enemy can only take out so many, and the IG do depend on outnumbering the enemy. Well, if there is a huge, game-stopping reason for me not to take Sharpshooters then I would take Carapace but AFAIK I cant see any reason not to take sharpshooters.
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Statistics. It might not seem too huge and game-stopping at first, but take a look at this (very basic) mathematical example.

For the example, the IG unit is a Heavy Bolter HW Team, so 3 of them, with Sharpshooters. The enemy, for the sake of commonness, are normal Space Marines. That makes the whole calculation somewhat dependant, but at least realistic.

Your chance to kill one enemy per shot equals:

(1/2 + 1/6 x 1/2) to hit x (2/3) to wound x (1/3) to pierce power armour = 7/12x2/3x1/3 = 14/108 ~ 0,13

Meaning, each of the 9 shots your team pumps out will kill a marine 13 out of 100 times.

Now, the same thing without Sharpshooters:
Your chance to kill one enemy per shot equals:

(1/2) to hit x (2/3) to wound x (1/3) to pierce power armour = 1/2x2/3x1/3 = 2/18 ~ 0,11

Compared to the Sharpshooters condition, you lose a little less than 1,9% to kill an enemy per shot. In a scenario where that many dice rolls are involved and therefore variances / standard deviations are obscenely high, this difference is hardly noticable.

If you do further calculations for other Heavy Weapons (and believe me when I tell you that it doesn't play any considerable role for your flashlights... your bought SS for your Heavy Weapons anyway, right?), you will find out that Sharpshooters actually leads to the largest effect with lascannons or other single-shot weapons such as Missile Launchers, and even then it's barely significant. What's even worse, the increased kill potential you create with SS is usually as, if not even more, expensive than simply using another squad with the same weapons and without SS instead (with the added benefit of more warm bodies attached to those weapons!)

If you're interested in more detailed information, check out the stuff Jenkins over at 40k.ca put up. Props to this guy, some of the best "ingame research" I've seen so far.
 
#16 ·
I personally think that the xeno riders are the coolest thing ever available to the guard. They let me break out of the stereotypical IG "stand and shoot" routine and bring the hurt over to the enemy for a change... :yes:

I use the rough riders, xenos, and carapace doctrines, for full squads all with hunting lances. The xeno rule's S4 attacks also makes them slightly decent in CC after they survive the charge (thanks to their 3+ saves). I am also in the process of modelling the honorificus rough rider to lead them, although I plan to give him a power claw. Despite its bad rap about striking last, by the time the enemy gets through his entire squad (w/ 3+ saves) and then through his 3 wounds I'm pretty sure he'll have done his points worth. :sleep:

CONCLUSION: rough riders are amazing.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Malefiz said:
If you do further calculations for other Heavy Weapons (and believe me when I tell you that it doesn't play any considerable role for your flashlights... your bought SS for your Heavy Weapons anyway, right?), you will find out that Sharpshooters actually leads to the largest effect with lascannons or other single-shot weapons such as Missile Launchers, and even then it's barely significant. What's even worse, the increased kill potential you create with SS is usually as, if not even more, expensive than simply using another squad with the same weapons and without SS instead (with the added benefit of more warm bodies attached to those weapons!)
Not true.

In terms of dealing damage, SS and non-SS squads are exactly identical in terms of points paid per lasgun hit generated. Spending the points on additional non-SS squads, however, is advantageous because they provide additional wounds and can hold table quarters.

But, when it comes to special and heavy weapons, the increased kill potential is *always* less expensive with SS squads than it is with non-SS squads. This is because the cost of SS is based on basic, lasgun-toting guardsmen. If they have better weapons, those weapons are improved for 1 point per model, same as for lasgunners. Behold:

6 SS Squads with a grenade launcher and autocannon in each [558 points]
35 lasgun hits; 3.5 grenade hits; 7 autocannon hits

7 Non-SS Squads with a grenade launcher and autocannon in each [581 points]
35 lasgun hits; 3.5 grenade hits; 7 autocannon hits

SS saves you points. Right here, you save 23 points. Is that insignificant? The more expensive the heavies and specials you equip, the more points you save. I agree with you that extra bodies are generally more important than more accurate troops, but the arguments that the advantage of SS is "insignificant" and that SS troops costs more per hit just are not sound.


EDIT: The Marine example is also not a very good demonstration because you use all the math simply to say 1.9% is a small number. The math should look more like this:

SS Lasgun firing at a Marine:
7/12 to hit * 1/3 to wound * 1/3 to fail the save = 6.5% chance to kill a Marine

Non-SS Lasgun firing at a Marine:
1/2 to hit * 1/3 to wound * 1/3 to fail the save = 5.6% chance to kill a Marine

All right. Now we've got a 0.9% difference between them. But this is not a tiny insignificant percentage. This means that, relative to each other, sharpshooters are 16% more effective at killing Marines than non-sharpshooters. That's hardly insignificant.

Another issue is concentration of fire. Sharpshooters, by nature, will make each unit hit harder. Extra units are good for holding quarters and soaking fire, but the idea that they will generate hits is giving them the benefit of the doubt. They could just as well be out of LoS. Just because you *can* buy an extra squad with the points saved on sharpshooters, doesn't mean that that extra squad will be in the right place at the right time. In a one-off basis, the sharpshooters will outperform the non-SSers.
 
#18 ·
plan to give him a power claw. Despite its bad rap about striking last, by the time the enemy gets through his entire squad (w/ 3+ saves) and then through his 3 wounds I'm pretty sure he'll have done his points worth.
Except power fists are "Officer's Only" items, and a Rough Rider Sergeant (even if you give him the Honorifica) still ain't an officer. I know, sucks doesn't it? I think the officer's only wargear concept is crap. Who cares if the Imperial Guard could get a hidden powerfist in a squad? We pay almost twice as much as Marines for a powerfist that isn't nearly as effective, and the model itself is more frail and likely to die before acting getting a chance to hit than a marine. Considering we're a shooting-oriented army, you think they'd cut us a break on being able to equip Guardsmen with some close combat weaponry if we get the inclination. How else do they expect to push all those fancy damn models with power fists and such if you have little opportunity and even less motivation to use them?
 
#19 ·
Knape97 said:
Seeing as there has been an overwhelming response to taking Lances, this is the squad I have come up with...

Xeno Riders of Kashann
First Sergeant Putinov (Xeno Mount, Honorifica, Power Sword, Plasma Pistol)
Riders of Kashann [6] (Xeno-Mount, Hunting Lance, LasPistols)

That gives me (On First charge);
3 S3 I4 Power Weapon Attacks
12 S5 I5 Power Weapon Attacks
7 S4 I5 Normal Attacks

And on subsequent charges;
3 S3 I4 Power Weapon Attacks
12 S3 I3 Normal Attacks
7 S4 I3 Normal Attacks

Now, when charging into a 10 man SM Assault squad I can imagine them doing an awfull lot of damage. Pistols before the charge could get lucky and take down a few men, and seeing as xeno mounts loose FoF thjere is no drawback there. Then I get 12 power attacks striking at higest initiative, and then 3 more at equal initiative... now all I have to hope for is that I charge them before they charge me.

I know the xeno mounts rules say that the mounts attacks use the riders initiative. But does that mean the mounts attacks are at I5 during the first attack (because of the lances)??? that would rock but I'm not sure that's correct.

Also, I'm pretty sure your sarge must have the lance as well. Sure he can buy extra stuff, the the codex says the "squadron" may replace one weap with a lance, and that would include the sarge.
 
#20 ·
zgeist said:
I know the xeno mounts rules say that the mounts attacks use the riders initiative. But does that mean the mounts attacks are at I5 during the first attack (because of the lances)??? that would rock but I'm not sure that's correct.
I'm quite certain that I read that the mount's attack was at I4.
 
#21 ·
I realize that Lost Nemesis already mentioned this, but I must stress that Rough Riders are not a unit that should be sent gallavanting across the board to face the enemy head on. They are purely a counter-charge unit and should be held tactically in reserves until your foe foolishly moves a unit within Assault range.

My vote is also for Hunting Lances. I've been using them since the new Codex came out and they are incredibly devestating to any enemy on the table.

Worlds Collide
 
#23 ·
I3 for extra Xeno attack?

Kaiser said:
I'm quite certain that I read that the mount's attack was at I4.
The rules on GW's website say:

"In close combat each rider will have an additional attack at their own Initiative and Weapon Skill but with Strength 4 representing the fearsome bite of the lizard. This attack is unmodified by weaponry."

So that means normally the extrra attack would be at I3 (which is the riders normal Initiative). But when charging with a lance, does that mean the extra attack is at I5? (the riders Init at that time) or would it be at I3? (since the last line says "This attack is unmodified by weaponry."

zgeist.
 
#24 ·
I dont believe hunting lances to be worth there points...they give you a power weapon attack first round...after that they just become a waste of points...

Most gamers i know will go..'' Oh cavalry lets shoot them'' and usually obliterating them in the first turn. drawing fire away from the main line ( a good thing) so if i was taking ruff riders i wouldnt give them many / any upgrades as in my army they only server the purpose of a distraction
And so far...it seems to be working
 
#25 ·
In close combat each rider will have an additional attack at their own Initiative and Weapon Skill but with Strength 4 representing the fearsome bite of the lizard. This attack is unmodified by weaponry.
That extract is directly from the Xenos mounts article. It seems pretty clear to me that the attack is a bonus attack at the initiative of the rider. Which is 5 with the hunting lance and 3 otherwise. I don't think you could argue that it is 4 or even 3 based on the above.
 
#26 ·
I dont believe hunting lances to be worth there points...they give you a power weapon attack first round...after that they just become a waste of points...

Most gamers i know will go..'' Oh cavalry lets shoot them'' and usually obliterating them in the first turn. drawing fire away from the main line ( a good thing) so if i was taking ruff riders i wouldnt give them many / any upgrades as in my army they only server the purpose of a distraction
And so far...it seems to be working


Also yes the extra attack would be I3 as the ''inmodified by weaponry'' states that.
But who cares, more men is the way forward
 
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