Welcome to Librarium Online!
I've seen a lot of posts bashing assorted age groups in Warhammer. And, while some people have very valid points, a lot of it is a gross generalization.
One of the most prevelent thing I've seen is a bit of an eliteist attitude amongst the legally adult members of the community-18 years or older. Numerous comments about the immaturity of people that age, how they don't read the rules, play broken DIY armies, yell and scream, ect,
are gross generalizations.
I personally play against people who mostly fall into that group, and am only out of it by a few months myself. Everybody in that age group I've played against has been a mature individual to play against. They all have either known the rules, or were more then willing to learn if they didn't know some.
As a matter of fact, the worst players I've ever played against were in the 25-40 age group. Do I generalize and say that all members of the 25-40 group are a bunch of uptight snots that refuse to accept defeat or lack of knowledge of the rules, and have a superiority comples? No. Because I know that they're an isolated incident.
Another thing is the constant bashing of players from 9-14. This is even worse, and totally unrelenting. While I do accept that a lot of would-be players in that age group are seriously lacking in the maturity department, give them a break. Really. They're little kids. Hell, if they show enough intrest in the hobby to begin with, you should try to help them.
Before I get accused of being preachy, BTW, I loathe teaching little kids who come in with a borrowed army and no knowledge of the rules. It's painful. No matter how willing they are to learn. However, you don't have to sit them down and teach them how to play. Point them towards starter sets, or someone who does have the paitence to teach them.
Also, in refernce towards the 13-14 crowd, many of them aren't as bad as the stereotype that exists. For every one of them that comes in with a bunch of DIY rules, badly painted Ultramarines and a temper tantrum, there's two or three who have picked up a Macragge starter, put some effort into their minis and the rules and honestly want to play. I've played against some young kids who knew the rules and painted as well as I have.
Anyways, my point is that there's way too much gross generalization out there. Yes, I'm WELL aware of the little punk bastards, the codex-skimmers, the prize-hunters and every other negative stereotype out there. But, please, just because you deal with them, don't generalize about everybody else. It's tiring, and rude.
Burn the land and boil the sea. You can't take the sky from me.
Member of the Canadian Clan, eh.
Mech Tau Cadre: 2000 points, needs paint and magnets.
Paladins of Avalon (SW):-1500 points, needs paint.
I think this is going to lead to a huge flame war about personal experience and perspective and maturity and all that jazz. Needless to say, everyone interprets the game differently. Some don't care about decent painting, some don't care about playing to win, some don't care if their Blood Angels have Genestealer arms that count as shuriken catapults.
I agree, you can't generalize, but neither can you combat such generalizations by stating such, because you are generalizing yourself. If little kids sometimes seem too emotionally immature to grasp the game, well, **** happens. Respond to them in your own way. Personally, I'd feel like flinging my crap at them and climbing a tree because children annoy me. Then again, I could be considered an immature gamer. Although I fall into the "legal adult" category, I just said I want to fling my crap at little kids. This doesn't affect how I view the game (I'm open to anything, so long as it isn't cheating), it's just me.
Now, I started playing when I was nine or ten, as did three of my friends, and our games were naught but frustrating arguments. Because there were four of us (with more to come), we didn't go to play at the stores, so we only annoyed each other. Still, we didn't know the rules front and back. We ignored lots of stuff, challenged each others' knowledge of the game, and occassionally took a break to play the old arcade stand-up Gaunlet, which my friend had in his basement.
So, did we fit the little kid profile? Yep. Did we know it? Nope. Does that mean all little kids are like that? Nope. However, they may not realize it if they are.
So, the lesson is lady luck is a ***** and you just have to deal with things as they happen. Some people get the raw end of the deal a lot and thus develop enmity towards young gamers. Some people like to trounce kids in games so they can add to their army's win tally. Some of us even fantasize about pegging kids in the face with logs from our nether regions.
Luck is luck, get over it. No one says you have to play little kids anyway.
EDIT: Not speaking directly to you, Broadside, just stating my general opinion. I don't want any angry private messages, now...
Last edited by Zanzibar; September 13th, 2005 at 07:10.
Good thing you brought this age thing up. I've got alot of opinions about it and alot
of thoughts, mainly from the threads I've been seeing around here.
Generalizing all your commentary about age labels. I've got some different views
I'd like to share with the group.
Personally I know a few kids at a gaming store and they're all right and I've formed
ideas about who is who and which is which. Pretty much you've got kids from JR high to SR
high to even college. And yes lets not forget about those legal adult players.
So, you've got your JR high players. GW gets them hooked, I got hooked at that age.
I'd say I started about 12. We'd spend all our allowence on those armies, I just wound
up with orks that all my friends didnt like and I learned to play with what I had. They
were slopply painted, put together wrong and hell. We had fun. It would kill an afternoon
SR high I got even more interested, started doing odd jobs to earn extra cash with my
allowence and I was able to start buying what I wanted to. I collected space marines which
any newbie does. And on top of all I hung out at my local hobby store which was my proving
ground. I learned rules and gained experience, Tell me how many dice you get with a squad
of assault terminators eh? But back to the point. I also bought my own paint and brushes
and took care in painting, thus getting gradually better at each squad I painted.
College these days its pretty much professional. Mainly like picking up something new
or gaining a new interest in an army you really never paid much attention to. For example
for the first time ever in sr high, I picked up Tau, then traded it for imperial guard cause
I thought it was a good challenge. Also not to mention the different style of painting and
the care you take to paint profesionaly so you could possibly trade sometime.
Notice how all the age groups match a experience level, but still sometimes you can have
the ocasional newbie in college level. While not being totally clueless they'll have common
sense in learning to play and paint and fall in love with the hobby of WHFB and 40K
-HONORABLE MENTIONS IN BLITZKRIEG PAINTING COMP-
"THAT I.G. GUY WITH THAT OVERDEVELOPED TRIGGER FINGER"
It seems to me that if you don't like playing little kids then don't play them.
I have always played warhammer to relax and have fun with friends, and for no other reason. Before I joined the club I am a regular at now I had not played regularly for about 5 years, just odd games with my brother in law who also plays. It never occurred to me to go to a games workshop store and play, because I knew I would be playing children and I had no desire to do that.
I have nothing against kids. I am just not interested in competing with them or socializing with them. I would rather not play at all (for years if necessary), and just paint and build and chat on forums like this one, than play against children. I feel silly playing a startegy game against a child, much as I would playing a serious game of football against one.
I don't go to the pub to hang out with 10 year olds, I go to be with people around my own age with a similar outlook on the world who I can socialize with. Games are the same. That's why I joined the club at my university because I was fairly sure of finding players like me there, and I did. I still don't play at GW and probably never will.
I started at age 12 and I only played my friends then too. I had zero interest in playing strangers and if I had I would definitely not have wanted to play someone significantly older than me. How would you joke around with them during the game?
Adults or teenagers who whinge about the behaviour of the kids they are playing should remember this: You are the one competing against a child in a complex strategy game.
Of course they are sometimes sore losers, whiners and gloaters, they are children, and you probably intimidate them at least a little. You can always refuse to play them, and if you can't accept the difficulties of playing a child then you should refuse. It's not exactly big of you to allow yourself to be annoyed by a child you have chosen to game with.
Robotnik your point is a good one however not everyone has that good fortune of having other people to play with. My city doesn't justify a GW becuase our small 110 000 population and because there is not GW or Rogue Trader I take the bus for 30 minutes to get to the next city over of around 250 000+ that has a GW, but I can only play there becuase I cant join any clubs becuase I'm stuck using the bus schedual and the buses stop at 9 (I know its stupid) and clubs start at 8, I'm not going.
Last edited by Osaria; September 13th, 2005 at 12:05.
I guess i would be classed in the 'kids' categorie cause im only 14 but i would say that the most annoying thing for me is playing 15/16 year olds who think they know all the rules & try to lord it over Kids smaller than them. I only started playing a year ago but my Army has evolved from a shockingly painted & badly put together Black Templar Army to My own custom Chapter the 'Draconians' who are i would say at fairly good, i've also expanded to Alatoic Eldar & Imperial Guard cause i love the challenge of Different armies. I'll admit that most kids of my Age can be a bit tedious to play & i've lost my patience many times with 13/14 year olds who have been playing the game for twice as long as me but still no less than myself. I recently started playing Fantasy with the older guys at our store & they've loved having a new challenger. My advice to any kid who doesnt want to be sterotyped into the Snotty nosed bad army annoying kid group just go grab a copy of the Rulebook & start reading, take some time with your army & ask people if you dont know. It's simple when you think about it.....
"I'm gonna stomp 'em to dust. I'm gonna grind their bones. I'm gonna burn down dere towns and cities. I'm gonna pile 'em up inna big fire and roast 'em. I'm gonna bash 'eads, break faces and jump up and down on da bits dat are left. An' den I'm gonna get really mean."
i'd hazard a guess that the majority of LO members got into the hobby when they were around 10-12, remember what you were like then? the more 'senior' gamers should really be trying to help younger gamers without patronising them.
One thing i like about LO is the diversity in ages, and everyone gets along dont they? its easy to generalise and certainly i for one would tend to assume my knowledege of...well...everything...is greater than a 14 year olds, but id be wrong! teenagers are the lifeblood of a hobby like this and they should be encouraged
PLAN CLAN MAN!!
He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man- S. Johnson
How can you have nothing against children if you'd rather never play than play with them? I can see that athletic games are silly to play against them with, but Warhammer is about strategic thinking. Intellegence isn't always in the same ratio as age. Warhammer is a game that everyone should be allowed to enjoy. It's a game! Not all kids are little brats. This is the gross genralization that Broad-side pilot brought up.have nothing against kids. I am just not interested in competing with them or socializing with them. I would rather not play at all (for years if necessary), and just paint and build and chat on forums like this one, than play against children. I feel silly playing a startegy game against a child, much as I would playing a serious game of football against one.
"DICE FOR THE DICE GOD!"
And the almighty Dice God said to his followers "Thou shalt not speak ye words "anything but a one" For thou whoever'st speaketh this blasphemy will be cursed with thy rolls being of one".
As other people have stated, it's really not the same thing.Originally Posted by robotnik
Example: I used to be reasonably good at chess before I gave it up. The tournaments I went to were not really age grouped and I can tell you I played against many, many very young players who could abseloutely destroy me despite being significantly younger. Yes, they still acted like kids off the board.. But the second you presented them with a logical challenge they would perfom to a very high standard. There are many young kids out there who are quite capable of playing any game involving logic and reason to a very high level. I haven't met that many who play GW games, admittedly, but there are some.
Quite frankly, all the age groups I've played against have displayed some kind of tendancy towards certain character failings. It's not just the kids. Everything from poor social skills to arrogance in an opponent can turn an otherwise good match into an annoying one. Don't focus uneccesarily on the kids.
Allegations of immaturity seem somewhat impotent when we're all, ultimately, playing with toys anyway. The rest of the non-gaming world could quite easily turn around and call any of us immature, and I wouldn't blame them for it.
You definitely have a point with your anti-generalization theme.
Being in the military has afforded me the opportunity of playing in a wide range of areas that I would never have been able to play in before. I started off playing games in Athens, GA and then I moved to Atlanta Georgia. The Athens group was very small and very forgiving of things such as proxies, but when I went to the larger and more experienced Atlanta group I noticed that they were "hardcore" about everything including WYSIWYG.
Then I moved to Monterey California and there I met my favorite gaming group ever. The store owners enforced a painting criteria for their customers and that really weeded out the bratty kids who were there to "kick ass" with their "leet" armies. However, it was also at this store that I met several highly intelligent players that I would gladly play a game with and all of them were under 15 years old. These "kids" were a great and mature group of gamers, and all of the adults there respected them a lot.
Then I went to San Angelo Texas where I met the worst gaming group I've ever seen in my whole life. Most of them were about 14 years old or younger, very few of them had a painted army, their army lists were always a bit suspect and they liked to make up their own little rules for themselves as they went along. I watched one kid come in a big back of cardboard circles that he wrote "warrior" and "destroyer" on, and they LET him play this "army" as if he had a Necron force. It was absurd and the overall maturity level of the store was very low. Even most of the adults were brought down the level of the kids playing there.
Now I'm in Korea and I've noticed something a little bit different. We have several players at my location in Korea who are older "adults", which means that they are at least 18 and most of them are 21+. While a several of these people are friendly and likeable, most of them have the mentality of a child. Especially the one person who continually contends he has the most unbeatable army there, yet never brings it with him. Is he really unbeatable if he wins 1/1 games with it and then never brings it again? :rolleyes:
Last point: It's also the individual discretion of the person playing the game that has to be factored in. A friend of mine who has managed to go to all the same duty stations as me since basic training absolutely LOVED the San Angelo store, but he didn't care for the Monterey store. Why? He was just learning the game at the Monterey store and lost most of his battles. When he finally became a seasoned player and started winning games, he had just moved to San Angelo with me.
In the end it all comes down to a combination of your personality vs. their personality. If you are the oldest of seven boys like myself, then you can have an incredible amount of patience, but if you are an only child, then you might really get irritated quickly by a younger child that you perceive to be whining. :rolleyes: