Euthanasia - Warhammer 40K Fantasy

Welcome to Librarium Online!

Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!

Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!


Register Now!

User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 52

Thread: Euthanasia

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Copenhagen, Denmark.
    Age
    32
    Posts
    867
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    435 (x6)

    Euthanasia

    I am now taking the opportunity to start a debate on a subject that has recently been discussed in the Danish media and even more among my fellow medical students: euthanasia, or mercy killing. I believe it is an important discussion to know about and participate in, for euthanasia is already taking place in many if not most hospitals around the world, and strong powers are lobbying for it to become a legal practise in many countries. As a future doctor I am even more involved in this debate than most, but I feel that discussing this issue with other medical students and health care personnel leaves me with knowledge only of the opinion of the people already inside the hospital system. So in an attempt to form a full picture of the current situation I am turning to the Enhanced Members of this forum, whom I believe are mature enough to handle such a delicate subject with the necessary tact.

    First, I would like to make clear the definitions of euthanasia:
    • Euthanasia is defined as the act or practice of ending the life of an individual suffering from terminal illness or an incurable condition, as by lethal administration of medicine or bodily trauma, or the suspension of extraordinary medical treatment. The first is called active euthanasia, the latter passive.

    • Voluntary euthanasia is when a patient asks his doctor to end his life, involuntary euthanasia is when a doctor herself decides that a patient’s quality of life has been or will be so decreased that death is no longer the worst alternative, and on her own ends the patient’s life. This also goes for euthanasia of newborn infants, who do not have the autonomy or indeed capability to speak for themselves.
    Now I would like know your thoughts on euthanasia. Is it morally justifiable? Do you think people have a ‘right to death’ just as they have a right to life, and if so, who should perform the euthanasia? Is there a difference between active and passive euthanasia, or between voluntary and involuntary? Are some handicaps severe enough to justify euthanasia of newborn infants, and if so, which? Are there any moral differences between euthanasia of the terminally ill and of the incurably ill? Is age an issue? Is previous and current mental health an issue? Is social status an issue? What do you think of ‘physician assisted suicide’, also known as ’voluntary passive euthanasia’, where a doctor gives a patient the means of ending his own life but does not actively participate?

    And finally, would you like to have the option to choose euthanasia for yourself in case of terminal or incurable illness?

    I would be very grateful if you would take a few minutes to ponder these questions and let me know your opinion. I have tried to stay impartial in this post (although I do of course have an opinion on the subject) for the sake of letting you form your own opinions. However, I would still like to assure you that there is no need to worry about me becoming the next Dr. Kevorkian. I am merely curious to hear your thoughts on the subject.

    ~Grephaun.

    "Girls are nice and cuddly on the outside, and freaky on the inside." ~ Lost Nemesis.


  2. Remove Advertisements
    Librarium-Online.com
    Advertisements

  3. #2
    Back in action! Lord Yossanrion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Canberra, ACT, Australia, reading "Make-Out Paradise."
    Age
    27
    Posts
    1,833
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    206 (x6)

    I think Euthanasia should be allowed. If someone is in terrible pain (I mean really terrible) they should have the right to stop that pain. Its better than living for years more in that constant, auful pain. Then they can die peacfully, than slowly and painfully. It is certainly morral justifible. Thats my point in general. Now for the questions:

    Do you think people have a ‘right to death’ just as they have a right to life, and if so, who should perform the euthanasia?
    Yes they do, and it should preferalbly themsleves or a family memeber if possilbe who performs euthanaisa.

    Is there a difference between active and passive euthanasia, or between voluntary and involuntary?
    Yes, but the line is blurred. Active is when the people conciously decide they want to die. Passive, when their family makes they choice on "what they would want". Volantary, well the perons wants it to happen, and involantary sounds abit like murder.

    Are some handicaps severe enough to justify euthanasia of newborn infants, and if so, which?
    Ouch, thats a hard one. I would have to say maybe yes, but they would have to be pretty damn awfull defects. Like, the child will be in constant pain all their life.

    Are there any moral differences between euthanasia of the terminally ill and of the incurably ill? Is age an issue?
    I don't think thier is a kind of difference, but it really depends on how badly sick the person is. If they are terminlly ill, but can still enjoy life they should live. If they are incurably ill, but live in terrible pain, then they should be able to have euthanasia. It all depends about the pain and suffereing inloved I guess. Same with age difference.

    Is previous and current mental health an issue?
    Possilb,y as they may not know what they are doing.

    Is social status an issue?
    Fundamentally no, but I'm sure that that the higher up the social ladder the harder it would be for them to be able to let themselves commit euthanasia.

    What do you think of ‘physician assisted suicide’, also known as ’voluntary passive euthanasia’, where a doctor gives a patient the means of ending his own life but does not actively participate?
    I think its fine, it certainly makes sure the person will not suffer at all.

    And finally, would you like to have the option to choose euthanasia for yourself in case of terminal or incurable illness?
    Naturally.

    I guess my point is: People should have the right to choose, because death is better than a terrible quality of life.

    ~Yossanrion

    P.S.
    Nice post Grephaun. Well thought out.
    Last edited by Lord Yossanrion; October 12th, 2005 at 10:31.
    Anzac Clan!
    Final Fantasy!

  4. #3
    Son of LO H0urg1ass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Age
    38
    Posts
    2,160
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    171 (x6)

    I have a T shirt in my closet that says: Go Kevorkian!

    That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter. I deeply believe that if someone is in terrible pain or has a wasting medical condition, then they should absolutely be able to be the Euthanized.

    Of course, I've always wondered something. Lets say you are in a lot of pain or you are going to die soon of cancer or something and you want a way out, then why in the world would you pay someone to take you out? I myself, would spend three dollars on a shotgun shell and take care of the problem myself. Now I realize that this isn't everyones case.

    Are some handicaps severe enough to justify euthanasia of newborn infants, and if so, which?
    Absolutely not. I don't think that any "handicap" justifies killing a child. The point at which we remove free will from the whole life and death thing, it becomes murder instead of Euthenasia. Perhaps there some very very rare instances where you could convince me that the death of a child is the only answer, but I would have to be very very convinced.

    I've heard of these sick bastard "parents" (and I use the term loosely since they are killing their own children) who have these tests done before birth to determine whether the children will have downs syndrome or other defects and then they opt to kill them instead of having them.

    Short answer: I think it's a good way out as long as you have the free will to decide that it is what you want. (A will stating stating that they want the plug pulled if they are ever in a coma... ect. counts just as well for me in this case).

  5. #4
    Wave Man Kahoolin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Canberra, Australia
    Age
    36
    Posts
    1,019
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    208 (x5)

    This is a complex topic I'll try to be concise.

    The main arguments against euthanasia come, not surprisingly, from religious folk, perticularly christians, muslims and jews, whose worldview asserts that humans have a soul and there is a god, and our lives are "sacred" and belong not to us but to this being.

    No sort of euthanasia can be reconciled with this belief. Suicide cannot even be reconciled with it, which is why we end up with the sadly pointless situation we have in Australia where suicide is illegal.

    Until society becomes truly secular and our laws are based on the assumption that there is no god, euthanasia cannot be consistently allowed without also allowing other forms of murder (if euthanasia can be termed murder). It's a complex argument but basically runs: the only reason we (officially) don't perform mercy killings now is because no human has the right to take another's life no matter what the circumstances. This is because our lives are not ours in the eyes of christian and therefore western law. If we allow mercy killings we obviously no longer believe that life is inviolate, and have put the power of life and death into the hands of other humans. People are afraid of this as it opens up a whole ethical can of worms, so to speak! Is it OK to kill in war, is it OK to kill to defend a stranger, is abortion OK, etc.

    I believe however that euthanasia has the potential to be a special case, rather like killing in self-defence. Even though the "god owns our lives" argument applies equally well to self-defence killings as to any other form of killing, society has agreed to turn a blind eye, as to punish people for defending themselves is clearly counter-intuitive.

    Hopefully something like this will happen and it should be allowed eventually.

    Do you think people have a ‘right to death’ just as they have a right to life, and if so, who should perform the euthanasia?
    I find it hard to tell what the difference is between a right to life and a right to death. Each is the absence of the other. Perhaps there could be special doctors who are licenced to perform mercy killings, as there are other specialists for different areas of medecine.

    Is there a difference between active and passive euthanasia, or between voluntary and involuntary?
    I believe suicide should be legal so I believe euthanasia should be legal, in all forms. I also don't believe our lives belong to anyone but ourselves.

    Are some handicaps severe enough to justify euthanasia of newborn infants, and if so, which?
    I think the parents should have the right to decide. If babies can be aborted because of the parent's financial and/or personal circumstances then it would be an inconsistency to not allow parents the right to euthanase severely disabled children. Humanity has been practicing selective infanticide for a very long time.

    Are there any moral differences between euthanasia of the terminally ill and of the incurably ill? Is age an issue?
    No moral differences. I'm sure people would agree that there were differences but it would be very hard to voice them in a consistent ethical framework. I think the decision to allow euthanasia takes far more courage than many people realize. It will profoundly change the way we view life and death.

    Is previous and current mental health an issue?
    Is social status an issue?
    IMO no.

    And finally, would you like to have the option to choose euthanasia for yourself in case of terminal or incurable illness?
    I would like the option but I have been seriously ill before and know that I would not take it.

    One question for YOU though, if it's OK to allow someone to die then why would you treat them in the first place? Doesn't this undercut the whole purpose of the medical profession? I mean you guys are supposed to never give up right?

    That was me being concise
    Last edited by Kahoolin; October 12th, 2005 at 11:30.

  6. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Copenhagen, Denmark.
    Age
    32
    Posts
    867
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    435 (x6)

    Quote Originally Posted by H0urg1ass
    Of course, I've always wondered something. Lets say you are in a lot of pain or you are going to die soon of cancer or something and you want a way out, then why in the world would you pay someone to take you out? I myself, would spend three dollars on a shotgun shell and take care of the problem myself. Now I realize that this isn't everyones case.
    In most European countries the procedure would be covered by the health care system. Plus, most people wanting or needing euthanasia are already hospitalised because of their condition. The additional cost would not be significant. Some might also be afraid of ‘doing it wrong’; emergency rooms surprisingly often get suicidal patients who have attempted suicide with a gun and ended up shooting themselves through the eyes instead of the brain, or between the two brain hemispheres without causing terminal damage. Spending the rest of your life with a severe handicap on top of your incurable illness is a daunting prospect, I suppose.

    Secondly, I think most candidates for euthanasia – unlike most suicide candidates – care about how their demise will affect their family and surroundings. Surely, dying peacefully in a hospital bed surrounded by family must be preferable over a more violent end, such as by gun or pills or blunt trauma? Plus, what about the people having to clean up after you? Shotguns are not gentle killers, that’s for sure, and jumping from a building or in front of a train might leave spectators with permanent psychological trauma. I for one wouldn’t like to inflict that on anyone; it would be rather selfish in my opinion.

    Finally, this thread isn’t about suicide, although voluntary euthanasia can definitely be likened to suicide. It is about whether the killing of another human being can or should be morally justified, and indeed legalised. Any opinions on that?

    ~Grephaun.
    "Girls are nice and cuddly on the outside, and freaky on the inside." ~ Lost Nemesis.


  7. #6
    Son of LO H0urg1ass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Age
    38
    Posts
    2,160
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    171 (x6)

    Plus, what about the people having to clean up after you? Shotguns are not gentle killers, that’s for sure, and jumping from a building or in front of a train might leave spectators with permanent psychological trauma. I for one wouldn’t like to inflict that on anyone; it would be rather selfish in my opinion.
    Whoooooaaaa, reign in those horses there a bit. I never said that I would pump myself full of shotgun shells in front of my kids or anything. I'm saying that there are plenty of ways to leave this world without paying a doctor to do it for you. It's pretty silly to pay to die. Give your money to someone who else who needs it instead.

    You're sorta putting words into my mouth there that never came out and then insinuating that I'm not even close to the topic by quoting one little part of what I said and ignoring the rest.

    I already gave my response. In fact, I even said the words "Short Answer" in front of my main point. I will repeat myself, however. I think that there's nothing wrong with Euthenasia as long as you have the free will to make that decision for yourself. If you really want a doctor to kill you in some nice and pleasant manner, then thats perfectly ok as long as you make it very clear that it is what you want.

    I also personally feel that the person should have a nice long counseling session with some sort of counselor to make absolutely sure that this is what they want before they die.

  8. #7
    Senior Member THE Hersh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hamilton
    Age
    43
    Posts
    881
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputation
    92 (x2)

    Grephaun, I must say, you post some SERIOUS topics, wow.

    With that aside, I believe in peoples right to make thier own decisions. I believe that everyone should have the right to make the decisions that will affect their lives. I used to wear a medic alert bracelet with a "do not recussitate, (spelling?)" order on it. I would not want to get hurt and then be revived as a vegetable. I'm not sure I could handle that, (Terry Chiavo anyone?). The only reason I took it off was it screwed with my life insurance policy when my daughter was born.

    To give you an idea of my thoughts on this, in the abortion debate, I am a pro choicer, BUT, I am anti abortion. The only time killing anything else is acceptable is when it is a life or death situation, (and please do not ask me to clarify what I mean by life or death, I can't, I go with what feels right).

    With that in mind, there are times when the quality of a persons life is so poor, (we'll use Terry Chiavo again), that death might be better. She was not only braindead herself, but, imagine what her husband was going through, both emotionally and financially, FOR 7 YEARS. He was paying to keep her on life support, he was visiting her daily, this can't be easy. But, is it okay to euthanise a retarded child? HELL NO, (many people thought Einstein was retarded, what would have happened then). How about someone who is crippled from the neck down, (Christopher Reeves, Stephen Hawking). I don't think so. There are ways to treat pain, so, unless it REAL bad, I don't think that is valid either. One exception, for instance, would be terminal cancer patients. Some of them are so ... physically damaged, that the drugs just don't work. Then I might think it was OK.

    Now, some of you might be thinking I am being hypocritical, (mind you, I think I am being Hypocratical). Note that I am talking about my beliefs, but, it's not about my approval. If someone thinks that thier standard of life is that bad and you thinkl you deserve euthanasia, who am I to stop you. Kinda like my abortion standpoint. I'm pro choice, but, anti abortion. I think women should have the right to decide, but, I don't believe that abortion is the best option.

    If someone could ever prove to me that what comes after death is better, then I might soften my standpoint. Until then, it is never right to kill anyone.

    And I believe it is the Dr's responsibility to oversee the euathanaisa, if not conduct it outright. Imagine you are trying to euthanise a family member and instead actually do even more harm. We, as non medical people, do not have the knowledge or training.

    I like this forum, it brings out the author in me and I can rant to my hearts content and force all of you to read my drivel.:yes:
    A little pain never hurt anyone - Larry

  9. #8
    Back in action! Lord Yossanrion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Canberra, ACT, Australia, reading "Make-Out Paradise."
    Age
    27
    Posts
    1,833
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    206 (x6)

    One question for YOU though, if it's OK to allow someone to die then why would you treat them in the first place? Doesn't this undercut the whole purpose of the medical profession? I mean you guys are supposed to never give up right?
    I hope to be a doctor one day, so I'll answer this aswell.

    You treat pateints to increase thier quality of life, and increase the chance that they might surivive and live comfortably. That is the ideal. Doctors IMHO are thier to make sure people are well, and not sick, and happy with thier quality of life. If thier quality of life is so bad that they wish to commit Euthanasia, then so be it. If I were I doctor,I would do it to my patinets, if it meant them having a comfortable, and happy death.

    ~Yossanrion
    Anzac Clan!
    Final Fantasy!

  10. #9
    Mr. Tau onlainari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Canberra
    Age
    31
    Posts
    2,417
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    299 (x7)

    Can someone tell my why euthanasia is bad? Or do we all agree?

    Ok, robotnik did kinda explain it, with the souls and religion and stuff, but if that's the best argument, then that's silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    You have the option for instance of infiltrating, outflanking, pillboxing, or anti assault.


    And that's just with the Kroot.

  11. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Copenhagen, Denmark.
    Age
    32
    Posts
    867
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputationReputation
    435 (x6)

    Quote Originally Posted by robotnik
    One question for YOU though, if it's OK to allow someone to die then why would you treat them in the first place? Doesn't this undercut the whole purpose of the medical profession? I mean you guys are supposed to never give up right?
    In the Doctor’s Oath that I will be swearing upon my graduation from medical school it is stated that the doctor’s purpose is to heal when possible and relieve when impossible. As long as treatment is possible, it is our duty to do everything in our power to treat every patient of ours. However, some patients might have reached a stage of their illness where treatment is no longer possible, at which point it becomes a matter of relieving their pain and distress in what amount of time they have left. It is in this situation that euthanasia becomes a possible option if legalised.

    Quote Originally Posted by H0urg1ass
    Whoooooaaaa, reign in those horses there a bit. I never said that I would pump myself full of shotgun shells in front of my kids or anything. I'm saying that there are plenty of ways to leave this world without paying a doctor to do it for you. It's pretty silly to pay to die. Give your money to someone who else who needs it instead.

    You're sorta putting words into my mouth there that never came out and then insinuating that I'm not even close to the topic by quoting one little part of what I said and ignoring the rest.
    I’m sorry if you feel you were misquoted and misunderstood, that was not my intention. I was simply remarking upon the fact that euthanasia is not suicide, and that the two should not be confused, mostly for the sake of preventing this thread from straying off-topic with a debate on suicide rather than euthanasia.

    As for your example of a method of suicide, I didn’t imply you were going to do it in front of your children either; I doubt anyone could be that cruel. However, no matter which way one chooses to do the deed, there will always be somebody who’ll have to find the body (or what remains) afterwards, and you can’t guarantee who it’ll be. I’ve talked to enough police officers and paramedics to know that they are as uncomfortable cleaning up after suicides as any of us would be. Inflicting that kind of discomfort on other people should in my opinion be a strong indication against suicide, even in case of medical issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by H0urg1ass
    I already gave my response. In fact, I even said the words "Short Answer" in front of my main point. I will repeat myself, however. I think that there's nothing wrong with Euthenasia as long as you have the free will to make that decision for yourself. If you really want a doctor to kill you in some nice and pleasant manner, then thats perfectly ok as long as you make it very clear that it is what you want.
    Yes, you have made it clear that you believe people should have the right to die if they no longer wish to live. However, you have not stated your opinion on the moral dilemma that is forced upon the doctor performing the euthanasia. Do doctors have a right to kill? Is it morally justifiable to force another person to make that choice? Would you yourself perform euthanasia on another human being if asked?

    Quote Originally Posted by THE Hersh
    Grephaun, I must say, you post some SERIOUS topics, wow.
    Isn’t that what the Enhanced Member’s section is here for, though?

    Reference for anyone who is unfamiliar with the case of Terry Schiavo: Wikipedia article on Terry Schiavo.

    In the case of Terry Schiavo, though, I’ll have to note that she wasn’t technically brain dead, only comatose or in a persistent vegetative state. True brain death is defined as a complete cessation of electrical activity in all of the brain, including not only the cerebrum but the cerebellum and brain stem also. People who are truly brain dead can uphold respiration and circulation with the aid of a respirator for a short period of time, but usually no longer than two to ten days. The body simply can’t sustain life without the reflexes of the brain stem and will inevitably die. The longest known period of time a brain dead person has remained alive in a respirator is 63 days. Since Terry Schiavo remained alive for seven years, she wasn’t technically brain dead. However, with no cerebral activity, she can’t be said to be truly alive either. I agree with you that in this case, when all hope was long since lost, letting her go was probably the most merciful course of action.

    Quote Originally Posted by THE Hersh
    And I believe it is the Dr's responsibility to oversee the euathanaisa, if not conduct it outright. Imagine you are trying to euthanise a family member and instead actually do even more harm. We, as non medical people, do not have the knowledge or training.
    That is true. Still, don’t you think this places the doctor in a moral dilemma? To either refuse a patient’s wish and go against the part of her Doctor’s Oath that promises relief from pain, or be actively involved in the death of another human being. As I asked H0urG1ass, would you be able to do this yourself if asked?

    Quote Originally Posted by THE Hersh
    I like this forum, it brings out the author in me and I can rant to my hearts content and force all of you to read my drivel.:yes:
    Heheh, that is true; this forum section does seem to inspire people to write good, long posts. I very much appreciate your reply, and do not consider it ‘drivel’; it is very interesting to see everybody’s points of view and compare them to my own opinions and experiences. Thanks for taking the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by onlainari
    Can someone tell my why euthanasia is bad? Or do we all agree?
    I actually have a differing opinion from the ones stated by others above, but I have refrained from answering my own questions because I want to see what others think themselves. I will at some point formulate a reply, though, where you might have your question answered.

    ~Grephaun.
    "Girls are nice and cuddly on the outside, and freaky on the inside." ~ Lost Nemesis.


+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts