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There have been twelve days of riots in France and not one topic.
I'm as surprised as anyone about the sheer scope of the violence.
If the media can be believed here's their links:
Quite frankly I'm surprised at the lack of discussion on the topic.
Some countries get discussions for unforseeable weather related phenomena but France can burn without a word.
Is there an air of disinterest in the problems in France or an unwillingness to believe what this may hold for the future of the European Union?
How will this effect the Euro?
Are countries poised to assist the French?
Should France use the military to restore order, or is that giving too much power to an already incompetent government?
I think it's a prime example of what happens when an elitist few run a welfare country. Someone has to pay the price.
If anyone has anymore links or a more clear perspective on why or how this unrest is occuring please share.
Last edited by Joker; November 8th, 2005 at 16:22.
And I think that you miss the point about those riots. The french, or any other west european country for that matter, are not an "elitist society", and the people who riot are not "the ones who pay for the welfare". They are not even french, and if anyone pays the price of the others welfare it is we native Europeans who pays the price of theirs. They are gold-diggers from poor countries near Europe, who have come here to enjoy our welfare, but have ended up being cast out because they dont fit in.Originally Posted by Joker
As I said, these people come from very poor countries, and typically have little to no education, but even those who have got an education typically have a hard time finding jobs here, because we Europeans tend not to trust their level of competence. On top of this, many simple manual labour jobs, which is the kind of jobs that this group of people usually get, is being transferred to eastern Europe and china, where the minimum salary is easily twenty times lower than in most parts of Europe, thus creating a desperate situation for all uneducated people in Europe, including the large minority of the immigrants.
They feel treated like second grade citizen here, and are generally unhappy with our culture, and seek to alienate themselves from us, by desperately hold on to their own culture instead of adapting to the countries they live in. They still wont go back to the countries they originally came from, mainly because the welfare here in Europe still provides them with more wealth than they could ever dream of, but also because the children dont feel that they belong there. In fact, they dont feel that they belong anywhere, and are often very angry at us Europeans as they feel that it is our fault that they dont feel accepted anywhere. These second and third generation immigrants are a dangerous group, have a (sometimes undeserved) reputation for being aggressive, and not without reason. While danes and first generation immigrants are each responsible for about the same amount of violent crime per 1000 inhabitants, second and third generation immigrants are responsible for 8 times more, because they feel hopeless and rootless, in a world that has no place for them. They are the kind of people you see rioting in France right now, and they arte the kind of people who might start similar riots in Amsterdam, Berlin or right outside my window this very night.
I sure hope that Im not kicked out from the enhanced forum for posting this, because it can no doubt be interpreted as racism. But I took my chances. In Europe, no one hardly talks about this huge problem, because people are so damn fast to label others as racists if they bring it up. Thats also why the are around Paris have been on fire for nearly two weeks without anyone posting about it. No one wants to be labeled a racist.
Its not so much that as a lack of sympathy for the buggers (by which I mean the people on the side of the "law" in france). Like you say, they've been treated like second class citizens, and now that the situation has escaped control, people in france have been forced to sit up and think:
"****. We actually do treat them like ****."
If they had acted sensibly in the first place, with appropriate measures then this amount of rioting wouldnt have happened. As for the comment about Elitist few, there is an element of that. More and more politicians are out of touch with the country they run, eg, Blair and the UK. I have yet to hear of a sensible reform that the labour government has put forward while they've been in power, but yet they still remain in power. i wonder if it needs to be the case that we have rioting here in order to get anything done.
"It fits like clothes made out of wasps!"
Very possibly true that I am missing the point about the riots.Originally Posted by Farseer Sareld
It's not an easy political situation to tapdance through when the affected people are people of color and the 'government class' is mostly white.
We have the same problem here in the U.S., it seems that no matter what gets done someone can just scream racist and it's accepted as gospel, and if those people getting screamed racist at say nothing they are deemed racist and if they do say something in their defense they are still considered racist.
It's a nasty bit political correctness, and wholly responsible for inactions that can save lives. If the French crack down then they are 'profiling' and if they do nothing they are 'unsimpathetic to the plight of minorities'
This is a creation of out of control liberalism.
As for the 'elitists' comment that's what happens when politically correct liberalism forces 'class warfare'. You're going to have the elites in power and then there's the rest of us.
I'm not saying it's fair, but that's the situation.
I really want to elaborate, but I'm forced back to work.
Sorry for the back to back posts but I wanted to continue yesterdays discussion.
As the violence in France starts to lessen maybe some insights into what's happening can become clearer.
I'm guessing that some of the worst violence was caused by terrorists already in France that used; or fed; the civil unrest as a smoke screen to do their particular brands of evil.
Europe has been flooded by large numbers of immigrants and as I have said before in another thread no country can survive for long supporting bunches of welfare recipients.
Apparently it isn't just the immigration that is causing problems. It appears to be a conflict of political agendas that is feeding the unrest.
The concept of 'Eurabia' a 30 year old French borne ideal appears to be reaching fruition if any of these websites can be believed and it is driving some of this violence.
I chose multiple links to keep from getting mired in the assumption by some that the intent of the post was racist and/or spun from one side or another.
The following quote is kind of eery especially when you realize that it was written in Oct of 2002!
" — while the leaders of their countries looked the other way and pretended that Israel was responsible for the violent aggressions against Jews in Europe by Arab-Muslim immigrants. Then they saw criminal bands terrorizing their city suburbs, as well as the terrorist networks and rampant fanaticism, which they had overlooked for decades. Today, the likely war against Iraq has caused shivers throughout Europe, which is trembling at the possible collapse of its Arab alliances, built on foundations that implied a rupture with America and the demise of Israel. Europe had tied its Arab-Muslim friendly alliances and prosperity to a cooperation with Middle East tyrants, and by supporting Yasser Arafat's criminal policies."
The cracks between Europe and America reveal the divergences between the choice of liberty and the road back to Munich on which the European Union continues to caper to new Arab-Islamic tunes, now called "occupation," "peace and justice," and "immigrants' rights" — themes which were composed for Israel's burial. And for Europe's demise.
— Bat Yeor, born in Egypt. A British citizen living in Switzerland since 1960,
Does anyone here have any insight they want to share on some of these articles? Because they don't exactly fit with the preconceptions I have of European attitudes towards America, they do; however; go a long way towards explaining some anger I see coming from western europe and France in particular.
Is 'Eurabia' a real situation facing europe or is it just socio-political scare tactics meant to gather opposition to the burgeoning immigration that threatens to drain the welfare coffers of even the most generous european nation?
Last edited by Joker; November 9th, 2005 at 19:12.
Sorry, I didn't read your articles. But I am in French class and we talked about it. The attacks (?) are by mostly young people, who are angry, as young people are. But, only one person has been killed to the best of my knowledge.
I think that it stems from the middle eastern and arabian region being not so hospitable (sand and rock), so people naturally want to get away. Also, many countries have been politically unstable, so people seek security in other parts of the world. Unfortunatley, Europe/America is not the land of milk and honey.
And, if I'm not mistaken, the attacks have spread through Belgium and parts of Germany. Are any of you Europeans scared?
"I'd rather fight 100 Hammerheads than 20 Battlesuits" -Vinnie, an Ultramarine.
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I don't think this is any time for self righteousness. It's all very well to sit here laughing at the misfortune of the French, blaming their welfare economy and culturally hegemonic emphasis etc.
But ultimately, people are rioting because they live in a country which excludes them from economic and social life. Most western, developed countries can be accused of exactly the same thing.
I think there are lessons to be learned for the world here about the dangers of pushing against weak minorities with limited social and legal powers to vent their frustration.That's a very European thing to say.Europe has been flooded by large numbers of immigrants and as I have said before in another thread no country can survive for long supporting bunches of welfare recipients.
In that, the common continental European assumption, not held out by statistical reality, has always been that immigrants are there to take welfare, rather than to work. I think it's this assumption in itself that triggers many of the social problems.
And, as I've said, while many countries in the world treat their immigrant populations far better than France, the spread of rioting to other countries suggests that many of us may have something to learn here.
I'd utterly dispute a terrorist link. Yes, the majority of rioters are from former French colonies in Islamic North Africa, but that, to me, does not in any way suggest a terrorist motive. It's simplisitic to expect that every islamic community or movement is automatically inspired by extreme islamic principles.
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; November 10th, 2005 at 17:59.
You know, I have to deal with the same attitude you imply; and lament me using; everyday about the problems that my country has to face. Just because another country closer to home is getting the same treatment and scrutiny now that it's dirty laundry is drying in the public air is no reason to become offended on their behalf. And while I may take a different approach to the spotlight I shine than you would, I assure you, I am not laughing.Originally Posted by The_Giant_Mantis
Although the irony of the hautiness presented by some (not you) when discussing the value of the creation of a welfare class because society supposedly 'owes them a living' and the reality of the situation in France is not lost on me.
Despite the nature of the comparison in my title of Jacque Chirac fiddling while France burned to Nero fiddling while Rome burned, I didn't create this as a French bashing thread. I have more respect for other peoples cultures than that.
As proof you need only read through my posts to see that I have included links to politically neutral ( as much as possible anyway ) websites with relevant reading material that adequately outlines the problems faced by the French in particular and Europe in general and I have given my opinion about them. If we don't share opinions that's fine, but shooting the messenger isn't going to change the message.It goes deeper than that. The creation of that class of people; regardless of country of origin or color of skin; appears to be a political expedient to have a large pool of readily available manpower to further an economic ( and other reasons ) agenda designed to make the EU a power to rival the U.S. Since the jobs required to sustain that level of manpower never materialized, France has been bled dry, and the rest of Europe is starting to feel some aftershocks.Originally Posted by The_Giant_Mantis
The immigrants had spread throughout Europe with the same hopes in mind: to help power an EU economy that hasn't yet been created, and now there is developing a clash between people that deem themselves 'real' europeans vs a class of immigrants that by virtue of their birth has every right to claim the same thing. With both factions having legitimate claims to equality in job placement but a skew in the reality going towards 'natives'.I agree. It also should outline for the world that when your politics are those of 'giving away' things that most people are more comfortable ( or at least should be ) with working for, you face the possible problems of creating either a class of dependents i.e. the welfare recipients in New Orleans that were so dependent on the inept local government that they couldn't evacuate in the face of natural disaster or you create another class of people so desperate to find an outlet for the energies they should be expending through working in an accepting society that they would rather burn the very towns sustaining them then put up with it anymore.Originally Posted by The_Giant_MantisNow your just insulting me. Take that back! :tongue: Hehe.Originally Posted by The_Giant_MantisI was merely pointing out the possibility that the civil unrest could very well have been cover for some real terrorist activity. The subway fire bombing reeks of a terrorist target.Originally Posted by The_Giant_MantisIt's equally simplistic to dismiss ties out of hand. To imply a possible immunity from terror to the French because of previous political stances they have made would be to neglect that terrorist targets are western countries and their allies. Far from seeing enemies in every corner I find it prudent to examine the evidence while keeping that in mind.Originally Posted by The_Giant_Mantis
Remember that just before the riots France took a stand with the U.S. ( against Syria for it's involvement with the assasination of the Lebanese prime minister ) for harsh U.N. sanctions against Syria.
I hope you don't take offense to my disagreements on some of your post The_Giant_Mantis as I have taken no offense from yours. I really do love a good debate! :yes:
Last edited by Joker; November 11th, 2005 at 13:05.
Well, you've got to be ready to work if you're moving to another countr, or even if you dont move. Being a minority or immagrant may be harder than being common, but thats one of the difficulties you've got to be prepared for when you move.
Also consider why people move. Europe and America must be pretty good if everyone wants to go there. There is a stream of illegal and legal immagrants coming into the U.S. from Mexico. What does that say about Mexico?
"I'd rather fight 100 Hammerheads than 20 Battlesuits" -Vinnie, an Ultramarine.
*Remember to use the Reputation ability! Click the yellow star beneath a name on the left side!*
Again, I'd state my disagreement..Originally Posted by Joker
I agree with you somewhat on the lack of French immunity, France is a Western Christian country, after all, but I think it's strange to lead on with the assumption that France is actively targetted by terrorists because it has not always supported the interests of the Islamic world.
There have not been enough major terrorists attacks to form assumptions, its true, but, at present, Islamic terrorists have tended to target countries with ties to Israel, or who have actively supported the US over its military action in Iraq. France has done neither.
While it doesn't equate to immunity, and I'm not suggesting it does. France has not exactly drawn attention to itself in the way other countries targetted by terrorists have. Admitting that this has an effect seems logical to me.
A firebombing is not symptomatic of terrorism to me, because it lacks any of the methodological similarities. The virtue of a firebomb is that it can be whipped together anywhere, by anyone, using commonly available materials. The downside is that it must be personally thrown, and, while it can set fire to buildings, it's unlikely to kill many people, both of which are important when you're trying to conduct an act of terrorism. Classically, it's a weapon used by mobs and rioters the world over, and thus, the presence of someone carrying one in a riot in France is unsurprising to me.
Now, if it was a nailbomb, I'd be slightly more indecisive. A car or truckbomb and I'd be agreeing with you. But as it is, there is no evidence to my mind of terrorism in France at present, besides the obviously blurred distinction between civil disorder and terrorism.