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What an incredible woman.
At last, moderate Muslims are speaking out against the backward Islamic world.
Yeah, I think you're mostly right.. But of course, backwardness is a point of view. I wouldn't say this is a battle between the middle ages mentality and a 21st century mentality. It's the battle to determine what will be the 21st century mentality, because that hasn't been decided yet.
We're a hell of a lot less rational than we'd like to think, and I believe the guys blowing themselves up in Jerusalem and Baghdad are a hell of a lot more rational than we'd like to think. Her perspective is understandable, but it's very 'easy', and based on the acceptance of a number of truths about the universe and international politics which, frankly, are not rational.
'Those who treat women like beasts, and those who treat them like human beings?'
Well.. as one Muslim cleric recently put it.
'Which is more offensive to women, Islam, or a society which can't sell a packet of cigarettes without slapping a naked female body on the packet.'
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; March 23rd, 2006 at 01:56.
Islam is going through a period of change, most religions do at some point.
I think it is good that people are speaking out againt a religion that has remained unchanged for a very long time, it cannot remain constant.
As religion is only a fraction of society it not adapting to what is considered acceptable or 'the norm' means it does get seen my most as either backward or extreme. Islam needs to adapt itself to lose the image of hate preachers and religious fanatics,now is the time and I hope that the majority of islamics stand up to the old ways and bring Islam into the 21st centuary.
Islam does seem a little insane.
What do you think about the case of that convert to Christianity from Islam in Afghanistan? does he merit death?
Of course I couldn't possibly say that a religon was wrong, evil and stupid. That would be nasty of me. They have every right to practice that religon by killing the "non-belliever".
And the suspected attempted terrorists on trial here recently. Yep, we don't believe so Allah will be happy if we are murdered. Well i'll be, what a lovely idea, bought to you by islamic fundamentalists.
Every time you read this sig: a fairie dies!
But she's not a muslim. She's a "secular human being" (in her own words) who, to be quite frank, is downright rude.Originally Posted by onlainari
She rants about having the freedom to express oneself, and yet doesn't give the interviewers the chance to get their perspective across. She quite simply doesn't allow debate, but bludgeons people with political correctness. She is not a good speaker, or a good thinker. She's trotting out bog standard ideas at a rate that doesn't allow for disagreement. It's foul.
As for whether Islam itself is right, it can only refer to itself for justification. If the muslim worldview is right, then they are perfectly justified in blowing up Buddhist statues or churches or whatever. It doesn't matter what people think of it, so long as it's right. Admittedly they can't prove things either way, but I hope you see my point.
I don't see any religion as a whole as good or bad.
I feel that most religions are a guidebook to life (e.g the bible forbids incest etc), they are not to actually do anything, they are to inspire people and provide them with a code to live by.
All these Islamic terroists blowing themselves up is BS, they have got to wrapped up in a warped point of view, very few religions openly say "go kill everyone who you cannot convert", its mainly "respect others even if they are going to hell" or whatever.
Basically in my opinion religion is the basis of society and provides humaity a goal to work to (i.e apease god/whoever and go to heaven/wherever).
Thank you for posting that link, Onlainari; it is quite uplifting to see that Islam has not yet managed to suppress all intelligent and strong women in the Middle East, and I couldnâ€™t agree more with what Wafa Sultan said. In my opinion Islam is in many ways a religion that seems stuck in the Middle Ages, and its blatant refusal to accept basic human rights is as appalling as it is frightening. I realise that there does exist moderate Muslims and cultural Muslims, but this doesnâ€™t change the fact that the majority of Muslims live in Islamic countries that support Shaâ€™ria as a holy law and therefore see themselves free to ignore everything the Western culture takes for granted, such as the freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and indeed the right to be free at all.Iâ€™m surprised you even have to ask that question, Mantis, and a little disturbed that you donâ€™t seem to know the correct answer yourself. As a woman I can answer that question easily: Islam. At least the owner of the naked female body on that packet of cigarettes made a choice to be portrayed like that; Islamic culture does not allow women that choice, or any other choice for that matter. Shaâ€™ria does see females as beasts, with the same rights you would apply to beasts; they cannot vote, they cannot educate themselves, they cannot dress the way they want to, they cannot even walk the same streets as men and must have separate sidewalks to prevent their femininity from â€˜taintingâ€™ men. This is nothing short of gender apartheid, and it is my opinion that forming an opinion of someone based merely on the colour of their skin, the god to which they pray, or indeed the gender they were born with, is a crime in violation of basic human rights that can never be excused. As a woman I donâ€™t find naked women offensive, but I do find Shaâ€™ria offensive.Originally Posted by The_Giant_MantisSheâ€™s a cultural Muslim even if she doesnâ€™t believe in Islam. And as such she has every right to speak out against her own cultural background, even use the Koran to support her points; I agree fully with what she said about religion being oneâ€™s private business and no concern of others. Her faith or lack thereof does not diminish the value of her arguments.Originally Posted by XerxesOh, you mean the gentleman who was calling her a heretic? Great argument, that. :rolleyes: First of all we donâ€™t know if the interview has been edited before being published online, and secondly she did reply to question about who came up with the concept of a clash of civilisations. As for political correctness, she seems to me to be refreshingly free of any such ridiculous notion.Originally Posted by Xerxez
"Girls are nice and cuddly on the outside, and freaky on the inside." ~ Lost Nemesis.
See as usual here's our problem right hereThe bit I've emphasized in Greph's post serves to point out the main problem with all of these current debates about Islam and the west. Every culture is ethnocentric (they necessarily see their values as being "natural" and the ones everyone should have) but a problem western culture has is that it ethnocentrically professes that ethnocentrism is a bad thing and everyone should be "free" (whatever that means).Originally Posted by Grephaun
This is not a problem when commenting on western society because all of the values the west holds have grown up relatively consistent with each other. Not so when you attempt to describe a non-western culture in western terms. Unsurprisingly contradictions emerge.
Westerners are obliged to say that people should have freedom of religion, but they are also obliged to to say that women should not be oppressed. What happens when a religions tenets by western standards oppress women? Which freedom is more important to uphold? There is no easy answer, as if you admit that religion is valid and allowable you are also admitting that it is potentially true, in which case it must be obeyed. God says so.
Please understand it is not my intention to pick on anyone, I just think Greph said some things which typify the problems of this debate, at least on the side of westerners. So to reconnect with her post, according to westerners muslims areIsn't this as it should be? If we do not allow them to be free to do this then we are not abiding by our own standards and are being unforgivably (from our point of view) ethnocentric.Originally Posted by Grephaun
I have no ready answer to this problem by the way, I just thought I'd make it a bit clearer in case someone else has something to add...
Last edited by Kahoolin; March 23rd, 2006 at 23:39.
Did she make a choice?Originally Posted by Grephaun
We can rationalise any action we make as a choice, but ultimately, there are many situations in life where realistic choice is impossible or limited. An abused woman in an oppressive Islamic society technically could make the choice to tear off the veil and run around in a miniskirt, but it's not a realistic one. Similarly, the woman who has to expose herself for advertising, or glamour modelling, or heck, even go so far as to work in porno or prostitution (the difference between which can be somewhat academic) can't turn around and decide to become a doctor merely as an act of will.
And do you honestly believe the person doing that job is seen as human? Of course not, she's just meat. Society binds people into that position in order to satisfy our own innate cravings and desire for certain forms of satisfaction. That is exploitation, and it's as real as some abusive middle eastern man forcing his wife to wear a veil.
That was why I quoted that particular source, though I don't see why it was taken so personally as an indication of my own feelings.
My actual point is that before indulging some nineteenth century style fantasy about the backwardness of any culture remotely different from our own. Let's take a long, hard look at this bloated mass we call 'civilization', and at what it actually represents. I agree with everything Xerxes says.. The argument presented here is the worst form of cultural arrogance and bigotted adoration of Western society, which, quite frankly, isn't the beautiful, enlightened brave new world she seems to think it is.
(A note, this is totally not a personal attack. I'm not even angry, though I don't like it being implied that I'm some kind of mysogynist who doesn't care about the plight of women in Islamic countries.. I just tend to see it in a much wider perspective. I have a viewpoint, I was triyng to put it across gently before, here I thought I'd be a bit stronger.)
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; March 24th, 2006 at 05:07.