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This is my first thread in the enhanced forum, we can still discuss gaming issues here right? Apologies if we can't. Additional apologies if this issue has been discussed before
Ok so this is the setup.
In a recent dwarfs thread "Are dwarfs boring" the issue of powergaming came up, and one guy clearly suggested that people who take an anvil of doom are powergamers.
I was about to reply (I'm actually quite angry abt this...and you won't like me when i'm angry) when i realised that my post was both off topic and also had the potential to start a flame war which is not what anyone wants to see. This is my opinion on the matter;
The dwarf anvil of doom has thorough fluff and a comprehensive set of rules, it is one of the most famous dwarf units, and i would expect absolutely no resentment from people if i fielded one against them.
But this is only half the story, on this site the words "cheese" and "powergaming" are used in almost every other thread. Most of the people on this site are young, i would say the average age is between 15-23 (slightly older for the enhanced members). And despite what we may think we are not the best players in the world, and we can all improve our gaming. Every opinion put forward on this site is qualitative, not quantitive. It seems like when we see something that we will have trouble beating, we label it as cheese or powergaming. Should we label all skaven players powergamers because the entire army is so broken?
Maybe as we get older we will learn how to deal with tougher armies, and we will stop complaining about them. Everytime i play someone with much more experience than me i get torn apart, to the point where i start to think that i couldn't possibly have won. But at the end my opponent always tells me where i could have done better, and suddenly it seems like it could have been a much more even match. These players all play to win, and do so with much success, but they go about it in such a manner and sportsmanship that i would never think of them as powergamers, just good gamers plain and simple.
The reason i bring this to the enhanced forum is because i think this has the recipe for a very volatile thread and that we are all able enough in our posting as to express our opinions without insulting others, and also i think it goes beyond discussing gaming and more towards the personalities/psychology behind it.
So i say bring forth your skyre SAD, your empire/dwarf gunlines, your bret cavalry. I will gladly play you all, and i will keep playing you, and one day...i will win
Hmmm, powergaming is good, IF used correctly.
For example, someone has an army that is not obviously powergaming, yet when said persons uses it their skill means it can crush most things, thats good powergaming as it shows skill.
Bad powergaming is where people take loads of units that are naturally hard to stop (I suppose this is why some people scream cheese at necrons), things that are either uber shooty/assaultiy or units that are absurdly hard to kill.
Take for example LST's, while they are very powerful people overestimate them in my book, its only when you try and take them head-on will you lose, hell, a heavy bolter will rip them to shreds. Its only because they are lethal at 24" (where people would normally bolter tham down) are they hard.
It also depends on the player, some make an army and make it hard because of experience and skill, while other take the nearest uber unit and watch it own, one is good, the other is not so good.
If that makes any sense.
Hello everyone. My name is Caluin Graye.
And I'm a power gamer.
(Pause here for the greetings to finish.)
Do I think it's wrong? No. But I also know when Power Gaming ends and Fun begins. I leave my Power Gaming at the tournament level. I feel no shame about it, as that's what tournaments are about. Winning. Being the best. And if Power Gaming to the point where I'm measuring combat efficiency between a Dread with an Autocannon and a Dread with a Heavy Bolter, or just plain no Dread at all, well then gosh darn it, I'm okay with that.
However, things change dramatically when playing any other game. Then my lists are for fun. I have a short budget, so I don't have many lists, but I make due with what I have. There's a significant change in my lists. You'd be amazed at how many spare points I can squeeze out of a Chaos list, but suddenly that's not so important when it is a friendly game.
Does my rambling make sense? In summary, Power Gaming is okay when used appropriately. In normal enviroments though, just build lists that both you and your opponent will enjoy playing.
I guess that I'm a powergamer too then. I never make a list without poring over it for many hundreds of seconds, looking for that one flaw that will bring about my downfall. Not really, but I am pretty anal when it comes to making lists. Even lists for friendly games.
You see, I have a reputation for winning among my circle of playing friends, and what sucks about that is that once you are a winner everyone expects you to keep winning. The other group of people are the ones who are looking for the glory of taking you down big time in a game and they want everyone to know that they beat you when they do.
So I even have to go about "friendly" games as if it's the end of the world, which kind of made playing very boring for a while. Then I switched to playing Warmachine and I could start over new. Luckily I don't win nearly as much at Warmachine so I don't have any reputation to keep up... which I like.
Hello, Caluin, welcome to the group. My name is Rob, and I used to be a power gamer.
Until I met one Chris Durges.
None of you know him, but he's basically the biggest 'tard you've ever met. He powergames all the time - it's all he can do. Tyranid Monsterous Creature armies...Iron Warriors with 4 Defilers...1000 point biker squads in 1500 points....Armoured companies...
The list goes on!
Now any of these lists is lethal - but Chris couldn't use them.
The satisfaction I received from pasting this army with a completely balanced Imperial Guard army/Space marine army/Chaos army/Tyranid army/Ork army...was palpable. The most fun I can have without being forced to cuddle afterwards.
So I started using regular lists all the time. I even diverted to purposefully building and using lists that were poorly designed, so to have more of a challenge. I found it so much more fun to play a game which was close, rather than paste my opponent.
Some people scream "Beard" or "Cheese" at my Ork army. I simply respond that as I'm running towards their army, I can happily remove a bunch of models in random succession "he dies of a heart attack.....tree crushes him...." and so on. And I can still win.
I'm not saying, "I'm a better play than you" to any of you - I'm just saying that I consider myself a better player than most people at my group.
If I make a powergamer list, it also runs the risk of losing. If I have awful luck in a game with the dice, then I could lose a game with a stupidly hard army - then the opponent can laugh that he's beaten a powergamer army. If he beats a regular army, he thinks "I beat an army....meh. that was a good game!"
Oh, and for those of you who want to know the demise of Chris - he got banned from GW for shop-lifting.
What a tuesday night that was!
Powergaming is, I feel, more about attitude than about specifics, although there are some types of armies that will manifest as a result of the trend (3 wraithlords in 1000 points... :wacko: ).
Powergamers (in my sense, the negative sense) only feel good about the game when they win. If they lose they tend to whine, cry foul in various ways and otherwise kick up a fuss. Because of this (and possibly in part due to a tactical immaturity which they have) they feel the need to use units which are inherently unbalanced/broken, resulting in a beardy list, ie one that is made to win at all costs, sacrificing everything else, including but not limited to the army's background and tactical flexibility.
In a tournament setting, things are slightly different but not much more so; things are more geared towards winning yes, but the flexibility that is required in a tournament somewhat curtails the beardiness of any particular army, as they cannot min/max successfully and expect to do well. Anyone who wins with what I consider a balanced army (yes, even necrons fall into this category: just shoot the warriors to the exclusion of everything else and they'll hit phase out quickly) and wins is not being beardy in the least; they're a good player, not a powergamer. And are generally sportmanlike about it.
In summary, powergaming is more about attitude than anything else; powergamers are the people that only feel good when they win, and will go to any lengths to achieve that goal.
There is definitly a difference between a cheesy army and a Powergamer in my opinion.
A cheesy army is one which has no relation to the background of the army in question normally for the intention of winning.
A powergamer is someone who only cares about winning and will be a rules lawyer, cheat and generally be obnoxious to win. A powergamer will be a powergamer whether he is playing with a balanced army or not a powergamer will be a powergamer whether he is playing warhammer or monopoly for that matter.
I don't think a cheesy army exists in reality as there is ALWAYS a story to explain it and every unbalanced army has a balanced army somewhere that can beat it.
Powergamers do exist and shouldn't be confused with competitive players
A compeitive player is someone who wants to win but also wants to have fun.
Last edited by Visitor Q; April 30th, 2006 at 17:26.
When my opponent declares a charge and it is out by a fraction of an inch, i let them have it. If my unit flees to a fraction of an inch from the table edge, then i remove them from the table. I always take bad dice rolls in good heart and i never cheat. If we come across a rules dispute i always let it go my opponents way.
In general i like nothing better than to talk to my opponent during the game about various non gaming issues, whilst enjoying a pint.
However when i write my army list i try to make it as balanced as possible but only in the way that a balanced army will fare better. I think nothing of fluff or flexibility, only about how the army will win. If i can take special characters i will, if i can take a ton of broken units then i will
So am i a powergamer?
Originally Posted by Stonehambey
Pesonally no I think you are a competitive gamer. Naturally everybody who plays a wargame wants to win other wise whats the point? But it is winning at the expense of fun or fair play that is the key.
I have to agree, there is a difference between powergamers and competitive players. It is definately an attitude thing, and the powergamers I have met tend to be powerdrivers, poweregotisticists (wow, long word that!) and general powersmeg-heads.
I enjoy playing competitive players, it challenges me. I do not enjoy having fight to the death juts to drop a powergamer's three bassies just to wipe the smile off his face. It makes for a game that has all the excitement and intelectual stimulation of a peeled potato.
I'm still very much a student of the good army list, and I get better every time I like to think. But powergamers spoil everyone's fun and you don't learn a damn thing from playing them.
Tell you what though, you dont get any of this powergaming hogwash in Specialist Games. Funny that.