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  1. #1
    Bearded Ninja Arklite's Avatar
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    Scotland and Independence.

    Recently a political battle has arisen between the Scottish nationalist party (SNP) and the Scottish labour party regarding that somewhat prickly subject of terrorism.

    generally speaking this argument relates to a statement from a labour party member that an independent Scotland would be more at risk to terror attacks. the SNP has attacked this as being a last ditch attempt to try and hold onto Scotland as the SNP is currently leading the popularity polls.

    So spurred by this im interested to know what people other than my self (a nationalist) think of the situation as a whole and to help out a bit here is some background info.

    its an argument that has dominated the minds of Scots since we annexed England in 1603 (PM me for details). The act of union followed and Great Britain was formed.

    over the course of the 300 years after the act of union Scotland steadily grew closer and closer to England until the end of ww2 where a powerful movement began to push us away. Devolution has taken its hold in the last 7 years after the forming of the Scottish executive ( a parliament with lesser powers) Scottish transportation, education and banking is leading the way in Britain with the strong expansion of the rail network, the abolition of university fees (they are only paid once you are in a working job and are removed in small amounts, about 9% of total price) and the bank of Scotland climbing to being one of the largest in Europe.

    And now for the token youtube link

    YouTube - Scotland



    and now that I’m past a little bit of back story and knowing that we all have seen brave heart at some point. I ask you this...

    Should Scotland in your opinion become independent of Great Britain? Or should it remain part of it?



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  3. #2
    Back in action! Lord Yossanrion's Avatar
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    There ws also a poll, in which alot of scots and english said they'd like to be sepearte countries.

    I think it would be cool for scotland (and wales if its not already, and Ireland too) to be independant from Britain. I think it would add to a more... vibrant national character for both nations. I think it would also add another voice to the world, which could be a very good thing, and I also think it would help promote a more diverse, and culturally accepting Europe (its pretty good now though).

    Anyways, I think it would be a good idea.
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  4. #3
    Senior Member Gallowglacht's Avatar
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    Id like to see my Scottish cousins independant. Might do you a world of good. Just so long as you dont go trying to annex us again.

    On a more serious note, if its done peacefully and calmly it may well do Scotland and Britain good. Your laws are moving apart anyway. Economically, the south of England is the heart of Britain, but has a different makeup than Scotland. You may end up with more freedom to do what works better for Scots. It may give Scots a better feeling of identity (not that its lacking now). Independance worked wonders for us and was far less pleasent than a modern break up would be. I also love the romantic image of another independant Celtic country.

    (OK back to being silly, we could both ally get naked paint ourselves blue an drive out the Sasnachts. Inniu Sasna, Amárach Gaul!!)

    I think it would be cool for scotland (and wales if its not already, and Ireland too) to be independant from Britain.
    There already an independant Ireland. Do we really need 2?
    Wales is a lot closer legaly to England than Scotland is (eg it lacks its own Parliament), so might be a bit harder.
    Is there a significant move for independance in Wales?
    Last edited by Gallowglacht; December 6th, 2006 at 12:49.

  5. #4
    Member Rogoth's Avatar
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    It seems that most ethnic groups are pushing for independence, from Quebec to Kurdistan, to the former Soviet republics, to Scotland. But then we have the EU, which allied a bunch togther.

    On the one hand, it seems a good idea for self-determinism and cultural integrity/diversity. On the other, do smaller countries have the clout to compete economically against larger nations or alliances with greater resource bases like Japan, China, EU and the US?
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  6. #5
    Senior Member Shoal07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogoth View Post
    It seems that most ethnic groups are pushing for independence, from Quebec to Kurdistan, to the former Soviet republics, to Scotland. But then we have the EU, which allied a bunch togther.

    On the one hand, it seems a good idea for self-determinism and cultural integrity/diversity. On the other, do smaller countries have the clout to compete economically against larger nations or alliances with greater resource bases like Japan, China, EU and the US?
    Wow, good point. Europe is going the way of unification in the EU; not trying to create more countries that are independent. Economically, the Scotts probably will do better as part of Great Britain then separately, but I don't know that much about either economy. In the current world stage, however, bigger does appear to be better. By being independent, both would get smaller.

    It’s tough. How happy are the Scotts right now? I mean, if you’re quality of life is good and you have freedom, do those rights need to be given by Scotts or are Brits just as good? I guess the question is, how important is it for your culture/ethnic group to be independent? Do you have representation in the political and legislative process of Great Britain? That too is important. We have 50 states and the District of Washington (DC) and DC, while paying taxes, has no congressional representation. It’s even on their license plates “taxation without representation� which was our cry in the Revolutionary War. Although, while it may be on their license plates, I highly doubt the majority of DC citizens give a rats ***.

    We also have a few territories (Puerto Rico, Bahamas, etc) that also do not have representation, but they don’t pay taxes either. Honestly, being in a US territory is the best of all worlds with the exception of your voice in the political processes (of which maybe 30-50% who have the right even bother to vote in most elections). In a US territory you’re a US Citizen, pay no taxes, still receive all the US perks and benefits... I really don’t know why some, like Puerto Rico, have issue except they have groups that want to be culturally independent. I’m sure the majority enjoy keeping all of their income vice the 30+% most of us give to just Federal Taxes alone. Let’s face it, in an individualistic society (most Western Cultures, especially the US) people would rather have $$ then a vote...
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  7. #6
    durus Diggums Hammer's Avatar
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    It is up to the Scottish people to decide for themselves if they wish to seperate.

    I think that they should be carefull in their choosing. I am not as familiar with the Scottish situation as I am with the Quebec one, but it would not be so good for Quebec to separate.

    One reason that Quebec wants to separate is that they want to have complete controll of their language and culture. The rest of Canada is a huge buffer against the spread of English into Quebec. Without Canada, French in Quebec could have already gone the way of the French in Louisiana.

    Quebec also gets net money Tranfer Payments from the rest of Canada. If they were to separate they would obviously not get these, and Quebec would have to become more economically competative.

    My point is that separation is not always the panacea that we might think it is. You may get some benefit for being part of the British union that you would not get by being separate. If you can enjoy the benefits of the Union while asserting and enjoying your own "Nationhood", is that not the best of both worlds?

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  8. #7
    Bearded Ninja Arklite's Avatar
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    ah good lots of nice well thought out replies this was what i was after :yes:

    anyways seeing as people would like to know more on the situation ill expand a bit more.


    on economy it is important to note that Scotland has several things going for its self.

    1: Edinburgh is the financial services centre of Scotland and the fifth largest financial centre in Europe.

    2: the royal back of Scotland is the

    3: Scotland is the EU's largest petroleum producer

    4cotland produces 28% of Europe’s PCs; more than seven per cent of the world’s PCs; and 29% of Europe’s notebooks.

    generally speaking Scotland on its own would most likely be able to survive without England attached being somewhat of a small economic powerhouse.

    With all this economic prowess however the Scottish parliament (formed fairly recently) only has access to domestic policies with very little control over tax (3p + or -) and no direct influence in foreign policy. Scotland does however have 59 MPs in Westminster out of the 646, which means that we do have some representation in the House of Commons but this is spilt over the parties within Scotland making it very fractured and generally quite irrelevant (more so as the labour party runs for these seats as well as the ones in England though it is under the banner of labour and Scottish labour.)


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    [16:20] <@Kaiser-> He usually is.
    [16:20] <@Kaiser-> Sometimes it's intentional.
    ----
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  9. #8
    Senior Member Shoal07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arklite View Post
    ah good lots of nice well thought out replies this was what i was after :yes:

    anyways seeing as people would like to know more on the situation ill expand a bit more.


    on economy it is important to note that Scotland has several things going for its self.

    1: Edinburgh is the financial services centre of Scotland and the fifth largest financial centre in Europe.

    2: the royal back of Scotland is the

    3: Scotland is the EU's largest petroleum producer

    4cotland produces 28% of Europe’s PCs; more than seven per cent of the world’s PCs; and 29% of Europe’s notebooks.

    generally speaking Scotland on its own would most likely be able to survive without England attached being somewhat of a small economic powerhouse.

    With all this economic prowess however the Scottish parliament (formed fairly recently) only has access to domestic policies with very little control over tax (3p + or -) and no direct influence in foreign policy. Scotland does however have 59 MPs in Westminster out of the 646, which means that we do have some representation in the House of Commons but this is spilt over the parties within Scotland making it very fractured and generally quite irrelevant (more so as the labour party runs for these seats as well as the ones in England though it is under the banner of labour and Scottish labour.)
    About the first half, no one I think is arguing wether it could be done, but more should it be done. I doubt Scottland will fall into the dark ages without England, far from it. However, would it be better? Also, the second half, the political stuff, does that matter to the Scotts as a whole? If it does, then maybe it's something to consider. It was obvious the Irish were not content to be under English rule, but I haven't heard of any Scottish car bombs lately... :shifty:
    Last edited by Shoal07; December 6th, 2006 at 17:42.
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  10. #9
    Son of LO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shoal07
    but I haven't heard of any Scottish car bombs lately...
    Heh, this reminds me of the time when an undercover reporter drove a car into a Scottish town laden with England flags during the world cup. It got trashed by youths within minutes of it being left.

    I mean there's friendly rivalry and all that, but smashing up someones car??

    The only Scott I know personally (albeit over the net) is Arklite, so I'm not going to make any generalisations here. But could one reason for wanting independence be a dislike of being associated with the English? At least for some Scotts?

    Ciao

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  11. #10
    Tabletop Terraformer Tzeentch Lord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arklite View Post
    its an argument that has dominated the minds of Scots since we annexed England in 1603 (PM me for details).
    :lol: Hehe! Very clever... I can't actually find a factual reference to any 'annexation' of England by Scotland. Though I can find references to King James VI of Scotland becoming James I of England in 1603. However, the two countries were still independent of each other until they joined to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain in 1707. Saying 'Scotland annexed England' is not only untrue but also makes it sound like there was some sort of major invasion and occupation by the Scots, which of course, there wasn't!

    Nice try though! :lol:

    Anyway, as for the actual subject of this thread, I'm going to take a wider view. I think countries becoming fully independent of each other is usually a bad idea. I'm certain that some sort of unification is the way forward. Taking the US as an example, in theory the American unification system does seem to be an excellent way for large number of people to live together. Having several large, semi-independent 'states', all defended by a single military and all contributing to a country-wide economy, seems to work really well. After all, they are possibly the mightiest military and economic power the world has ever seen.

    But having little countries fracture into even smaller, completely independent nations just seems pointless and counter productive to unifying the human race as a whole. Think about it, would it be better for the human race to be united in all their efforts (especially as we reach the point where we move out into space) or become completely divided and just squabble with each other all the time?
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