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Some of you have been helping me with a list for a GT I will be in this weekend. While tweeking the list I realized that I can get 2 units of Leadblechers for the price of 1 unit of Yhettis plus 15 pts. While that's not news for many of you perhaps thinking about the benefit of Belchers over Yhettis is.
Benefits against shooting:
Yhettis: 9 wounds
Belchers: 6 in 2 units for a total of 12.
Signifigance: Apply that too panic checks. Both have the same toughness and require the same number of wounds caused per unit to force a check. Since both are both LD7 a unit of 3 yhettis and a unit of 2 LB's have the same chance of panicing. Benefit is even if one unit of LB's flees you still have another on the board. If the yhettis flee you have 195 points running away.
You could argue that yhettis are better at using terrain for cover but I find that I will usually use terrain to protect my Tyrant and butchers. After all there can only be so much terrain on the board. Also see below for more thoughts on the matter.
Bennefits of Magic:
Yhettis: Magic Ice weapons.
Belchers: Targetable unit for butchers.
To me this is odvious. Leadbelchers are targetable by Butchers. Make those guys stuborn and you have a unit that can hold a flank. Yhettis aren't targetable by butchers and that makes them less resillant to magic and shooting. Too bad -1 to hit wasn't against shooting too.
Yhettis DO get magic attacks but that's a very situational bennefit and it can also be taken away. Maybe it will become more usefull when the Daemon book comes out but right now it's not that great.
This can be a big arguement FOR yehttis but I am not convinced it justifies the massive point cost over taking 2 units of Belchers. Biggest benefit is rolling three dice to pursue rather than 2. But its my experiece you won't be rolling those dice as often as you would with 2 units of belchers. People experienced with MSU know what I am talking about.
Yhettis might get a charge off against foot slogers but theres plenty of M7+ units,especially in flankerville, where most people will use them.
Belchers on the other hand get a Stand and Shoot reaction. Certainly gives knights, fast cav, and other units with High M and low #'s something to think about before charging. If your lucky you may force a panic check. Nothing better than forcing 2 psych checks and it's not even your turn.
Yhettis: -1 to hit in close combat, move through difficult terrain
Butchers: Ogre Club, Cannon, Light Armor
Yhettis cuase ALL models that are in contact to suffer a -1 to hit. Meaning don't combo charge your Tyrant with Thundermace into combat with these guys as he will suffer the -1 too. Aside from that against S3 or less it has the same affect as the Light Armor Blechers come with. It's better against S4 plus but much of the str4+ things out there need to get the charge. If they get the charge against Belchers the Belchers get a Stand 'n Shoot reaction which depending on the situation could be better (See Movement).
Also in flankerville, where these two units often are, there is Armor that needs to be punched in the form of knights. Belchers get that extra -1 for armor piercing where Yhettis don't.
So that's why I put 2 units of Belcher's instead of a unit of Yhettis in my list . I had to take Brace of Handguns off my Tyrant to make the room. Not that big of a deal as the only reason I had BoH is my Tyrant is the LE model.
If you think I am making a mistake try to convince me otherwise but do to the reasons above it's what I plan to take.
Last edited by kbolster12345; March 27th, 2008 at 17:04.
I am 100% in the other direction.
Using MSU you can't afford to fail a pursuit in the battles that you do win and the 3d6 is very important. If you are making a tournament list then the magic weapons are more than necessary. Their ability to murder Forest Spirits, Daemons, and Ethereal creatures is too important to pass up. In MSU they are the only unit that will not need a bait and flee unit in order to get a charge. I don't say that because of the movement 7 but for the ability to use the trees to prevent enemy charges while they do not affect you. A natural strength 5 is much better than S4 with and additional minus one, even if you are getting a shot off.
With Lead Belchers you get a unit with ineffective and inefficient shooting ability. They would be useful for taking out skirmishers if they could actually hit them. -1 for skirmishers and -1 for cover in most instances you hit on 6's. Then you have to sit still for an entire turn in order to shoot again. Sure you can stand and shoot but once again a -1 modifier. Other than their shooting they are a unit of bulls with light armor that can be taken in units of 2. That can be a useful thing in certain situations but if you lose one, even to your own misfires your opponent gets victory points.
Leadbelchers lend themselves to a quick shot on a bait and flee then they can use their rally turn to reload. In my opinion the shooting isn't worth it and I would rather have another bull and save 5 points. One facet that I am considering them in is taking a unit of 4 and seeing if they help me handle dragons and things like that. Hitting is the problem with LeadBelchers but a good +1 large target modifier might help.
Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only the strong may truly judge what is sane.
In light of reading your reasons, I'll offer some alternative points of interest for your consideration.
I prefer yhetis, or possibly both a yhetti and leadbelcher unit since the price is only a bit more for yhetis.
Leadbelchers should not be in large units, since more than likely you will misfire and do about the same amount of damage to yourself as you will to the enemy. A unit of 2 is usually what I take, they are small enough to still hit a flank, too small for the enemy to worry about too much and when they misfire, they either kill the unit or panic, but it's not taking several hundred points out with it.
Leadbelchers have to stop for a full turn before firing again. if you moved and shot, I don't know if you still get your stand and shoot during the opponents turn, which brings me to my main beef with leadbelchers; If you're an ogre and are not in combat, you're in trouble. OK are meant to be in combat as fast as they can and as often (yes, I know you want to set up flank charges and such) but they perform better in combat rather than standing around shooting guns. Yhetis are much better in combat, even against high WS armies. The magic attacks are a must. You say they are situational, but I say you have to have them. With the new VC, there are several units that require magical attacks to deal with otherwise you could lose the game (imagine a banshee terrorizing your units, dropping wounds every turn and marchblocking) Any Wood Elf army is going to have forest spirits, the new demon book will bring more to the table as well, but let's admit it, the VC is the the strongest book in the game right now and spirit hosts and wraiths are killer if you don't have something to deal out some wounds to them.
Yhetis are not that much more expensive, but ultimately, it comes down to what the rest of your army looks like and what opponents you expect to face.
This is the kind of thing I am looking for in my thread about competitive builds. There are very good reasons given to support using Yhetees in an army as opposed to 2x2 Leadbelchers. I have 2 problems with using Yhetees however: 1) They are not Ogres so they cannot be buffed by Butchers. I suppose this could be a good thing though as it lessens the options for my Butchers to choose from(the fewer decisions they are forced to make the better) and, 2) They are metal models which I A)don't want to shell out the money for(already have Leadbelchers in the Battalion Box) and hate to assemble. Excellent comparision of the 2 units and good reasoning on both sides for using each unit.
Model for model a yhetti isn't that much more but Unit for Unit Yhettis cost almost twice as much. 110 vs 195. Although I did make a mistake I said 2 units is only 15pts higher when it's really 25. I think I needed to make up 15 pts on my list as I had 10 pts to spend.
I hear you on the bulls for 5 pts more. Unfortunately this tourney dings you a comp point for 4 units equiped the same and I am already scraping points as it is. The comp isn't nice to ogres.
The charging through trees is a nice advantage. Guess I knew that but didn't necessarily think about while writing.
@ any rate I donlt have time to get the yhettis ready for the GT and my LB's looks good and fit my theme. ACtually the yhettis I have are apitned but not by me and they need lots of work. Probably a night in the stipping bucket or just paint over. Paintin scores SHOULD help me and a couple of people have told me that I MIGHT be a canidate for best army or painting or something like that. I will let you know and I iwll be honest with about if miss the yhettis.
Last edited by kbolster12345; March 27th, 2008 at 20:16.
they can also pass thru impassible terrain - which should not be overlooked.
I also think you're underestimating the magical attacks, which could save you at least one game. I don't think inability to buff with gut magic is that much of a drawback, you're going to have plenty of targets for gut magic, and in a tourney, you'll probably have an even defense, which means you're only going to get a few spells off per turn anyway.
You know the tourney rules better than we do, and it sounds like you're mind is made up anyway, I'll save my breath.
As stated I said I would re-visit the issue after the tourney. One game I found I really would have liked to have had those yhettis. The other 4 games the LB's where a very important part of my strategy.
First about the game I would have liked to have had the yhettis. Game 3 I faced a wood Elf army that was in the capable hands of 2x's Da Boyz Overall Champ. The scenario called for diagnol deployment and there was a wall terrain feature that ran perpendicular to my left hand's board edge. The killer of it was that it was about 15 - 18 incheds long. It proved to be a problem throughout the game because the dryads took the wall as a defendable obstacle which would have given him initiative even if I charged. yehttis would have been great as I could have "Rail slid" down the wall taking out those pesky units and opened a flank for my self.
The rest of the games I used my LB's for three reasons most of the time. 1 was that they blocked LOS between my units of Bulls to my Iron Gut units. 2 they were used as deflectors. They moved up at an angle behnd the bulls. Any unit wishing to charge and beat the bulls when then pursue/over run into the LB's and thus be open for a flank charge from my IG's. 3 rd was they would stand and shoot as bulls fled throught them and charged into the LB's. The latest only happened once but it was very nice when it did work.
So you could argue that yhettis in game 3 would have helped but I think games 2 and 4 may have changed. I think there will be games every tourney that I will want the other if I bring one.